Flex vs. Travesty

[MarkFive]

I think Dean and myself have both compared this to the Edge launch on multiple occaisions. We were both there for the launch of both vehicles, and it feels exactly the same.

 

I don't remember the Edge being that slow of a launch. Mind you, I'm basing that off of how many I saw on the road after it was launched. I have now seen a couple Flex on the road.

 

My dealer has about 15 Flex in stock. My favourite colors are all black or all white and I usually hate white on a car.

 

If I were to change anything for future Flex production, it would be to put the LED tailights on all models. I really see the difference between the Limited and the lower-end models. I also prefer not to have the brushed silver panel on the tailgate.

 

IMO, Ford should have kept the name Fairlane but what do I know.

[NickF1011]

I don't remember the Edge being that slow of a launch. Mind you, I'm basing that off of how many I saw on the road after it was launched. I have now seen a couple Flex on the road.

 

It wasn't quite as slow as the Flex in its first few months, but then again, the overall market was much stronger then also. It did take several months for the Edge to jump up to its current levels though. Edge is also a cheaper vehicle in a cheaper segment, so sales probably shouldn't be compared 1:1.

 

Edge's first 4 months:

 

December 06 - 2201

January 07 - 5586

Febuary 07 - 7977

March 07 - 10915

 

And then look at Edge this past month at only 6633, which is its 3rd worst month since launch. It's a horrid market overall, even for previously successful vehicles like Edge. What chance does a newcomer have? Not a very good one.

Edited October 7, 2008 by NickF1011

[RichardJensen]

Ford will struggle to get this higher end $30k+ consumer. In spite of how nice the Flex is, and how much Joe Consumer actually likes it, the logic will be: If we are spending $30k+, we better go with what we know - and that equals Honda Pilot/Odyssey and/or Toyota Highlander/Sienna.

And yet.... the Edge.

 

The problem is the market is terrible. Sub 14M unit annual selling rate, 60% of Americans think we're headed into a depression (as in bread lines, 25% unemployment, etc.) Not good for a business that requires a certain basic optimism about the future.

[Kev-Mo]

If Toyota and Honda followed that mentality, they would still be selling underachieving crapboxes like they did the 70's and 80's. The only way Ford will recapture market share from Toyota and Honda is to go at them head on. They aren't going to regain it by selling discount crap. Even the Koreans have found out that strategy only gets you so far.

 

 

Didn't say they should not make a nice (but expensive) Flex, I just said it will be a struggle to get folks to buy the the Ford over a Honda/Toyota at that price point. Keep at it long enough and possibly break the perception- who knows, but they have to try.

[P71_CrownVic]

You obviously hate Ford.

 

Yes...there you go again...perpetuating baseless lies. You really should be a politician. Making things up to trash people...and then get all defensive when the shit comes slinging back.

 

Anyway, I had to go to the dealer today to get parts for MY FORD...THAT I LIKE...and was able to spend some quality time with the Taurus, Flex, and Escape.

[P71_CrownVic]

Edge's first 4 months:

 

December 06 - 2201

January 07 - 5586

Febuary 07 - 7977

March 07 - 10915

 

And then look at Edge this past month at only 6633, which is its 3rd worst month since launch. It's a horrid market overall, even for previously successful vehicles like Edge.

 

Don't forget the Escape as well. Virtually the same vehicle as the Edge (5 seat midsized SUV). Manufacturing two vehicles that are the same competing for the same market is never a good idea.

[MarkFive]

Don't forget the Escape as well. Virtually the same vehicle as the Edge (5 seat midsized SUV). Manufacturing two vehicles that are the same competing for the same market is never a good idea.

 

Both have an engine, tires, an instrument panel and a Ford logo.

 

Oh my God - they are virtually the same!

Edited October 7, 2008 by MarkFive

[twintornados]

Anyway, I had to go to the dealer today to get parts for MY FORD...THAT I LIKE...and was able to spend some quality time with the Taurus, Flex, and Escape.

....and?? Did you make the leap?? :shades:

[twintornados]

...oh and Nick, please...don't banish P71, again....I kinda enjoy his postings even though I may not agree with him.

[P71_CrownVic]

Both have an engine, tires, an instrument panel and a Ford logo.

 

Oh my God - they are virtually the same!

 

Yeah...that's exactly what I meant. Good job.

 

....and?? Did you make the leap?? :shades:

 

Oh hell no.

[jobu37]

....... only with a more bland front end treatment (if that is possible).

 

There was alot of complaining, by certain posters on here, about Ford using a corporate front end styling.................. basically, that everything looks the same. Now Chevy is doing the exact same thing............... and these same people are applauding it.

 

Typical.

I agree completely. The bland front end that Chevy is pushing may very well be why 50% of Malibu sales went to rental fleets last month. In spite of the obvious shortcomings of the new front end they are putting it on everything. The Volt, Cruze, Traverse and I suspect every other Chevy that will be coming out in the near future. Perhaps their thinking is that since blandness has worked so well for Toyota they needed to dumb down their Chevy offerings to reach those Toyota customers. What GM doesn't understand is that the Toyota loyalist don't see the bland design. All they see is the T symbol on the grill. Currently nothing else matters, but hopefully that is beginning to change.

[MarkFive]

Yeah...that's exactly what I meant. Good job.

 

Thank you!

[kyle]

i think alot of the problem is, the people here bashing the Flex haven't driven one. They may have seen one in person, and may have even poked it with a stick, but probibly haven't driven one. I've driven a bunch, and been on a lot of test drives with customers. I've seen the reactions, and driven them first hand, and they are an amazing ride. Tigh, responsive, smooth, and quiet as hell. Even the base models are loaded, so yeah, it is a more upscale vehicle than Ford typically offers. Is this a mistake? Maybe, but you won't know until you drive one to see what you're missing. As for the looks being polarizing, alot of that is because it is new and different. When we got our first couple, we all took a collective step back and weren't sure. After seeing them everyday, everyone here has talked about it growing on them. Same with the Edge. Bottom line is, once the stick-poking stops, and people drive them because they've seen a few on the road, it'll be fine. Take them for what they are. They're not perfect for everyone, but as a family hauler, there's nothing better. I think Dean and myself have both compared this to the Edge launch on multiple occaisions. We were both there for the launch of both vehicles, and it feels exactly the same.

 

Not sure you were putting me in that group or not but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Every thing I have mentioned is a side by side comparison with it's most natural competitor and none of it involves driving.

 

I have not driven a Flex-but am very confident it will drive very good. I am around Ford dealers every day and have conversations all the time on the Flex. I was in one today-along with a 09 F150-actually 2 of them. That is a different story.

 

Sure hope you are right on the Flex sales increasing soon. This has been a slower launch than the Edge for sure-for a lot of reasons I understand, but nevertheless when you have a vehicle missing the mark so much it is disturbing. No doubt Ford could look back at this and say they swung for the fences with something so different and hit a foul ball. Maybe the public wants something between a plain Taurus and a show car Flex. Who knows-history will write itself in a couple of years on this vehicle.

 

I anticipate it will drive much like my Edge-which I think drives great. I have driven the GMC and Buick Enclave-and like the way it drives-don't think it will drive that much different than the Flex-they are very similar vehicles. The Enclave is noticeably quieter than the GMC sibling-and I know the Flex is quiet-that is everyones opinion.

 

I asked my wife to take a look at the Flex and she voted it down right away. Her opinion just from the looks side. I went into the vehicles and did an overview on what is important to me and my family. I could care less about 0-60 times, skid pad results, etc. That makes no sense at all.

 

As mentioned in my first post, I will probably be getting a Flex for a company ride in 3 months-that or a F150 or Fusion. Any of those vehicles is fine by me.

[RichardJensen]

when you have a vehicle missing the mark so much it is disturbing

I think you are jumping to a huge conclusion here. You could not have possibly picked a worse time to launch a vehicle like this. In fact, Ford's consumer clinics showed an 80% favorable opinion of the Flex among those aware of it back in June. The problem is people just ain't buying cars like this.

 

The thing with the Traverse, IMO, will be comparing total Lambda sales.... If the Traverse hits 6k, but total Lambda sales only get bumped 2-3k, well, I wouldn't say the Traverse is doing better than the Flex.

Edited October 8, 2008 by RichardJensen

[fordmantpw]

You also have to keep in mind that the Flex is not just about the Flex. It also has a lot to do with bringing more traffic and attention into Ford showrooms due to the uniqueness of the car. How many Edges will be sold because someone came to look at a Flex and decided on an Edge instead. If it wasn't for the Flex, that customer would not have come in at all. The same is not true for the Traverse.

[stpatrick90]

Don't forget the Escape as well. Virtually the same vehicle as the Edge (5 seat midsized SUV). Manufacturing two vehicles that are the same competing for the same market is never a good idea.

Actually I believe that the Escape is considered a Compact SUV/CUV whereas the Edge is considered a Midsize CUV.

[rmc523]

Actually I believe that the Escape is considered a Compact SUV/CUV whereas the Edge is considered a Midsize CUV.

 

Not true....we must compare all 5-seat vehicles at once, no matter what size.

[kyle]

You also have to keep in mind that the Flex is not just about the Flex. It also has a lot to do with bringing more traffic and attention into Ford showrooms due to the uniqueness of the car. How many Edges will be sold because someone came to look at a Flex and decided on an Edge instead. If it wasn't for the Flex, that customer would not have come in at all. The same is not true for the Traverse.

 

I wish that were true but it is not at least based upon my conversations with sales managers, staff and dealer principals. To me someone is not going to walk in and check out a flex-like it but buy a Edge because of cost or a rebate. The vehicles look nothing alike.

 

I could see more of a Traverse customer checking it out and buying a equinox-similar silhouette, front end, etc.

 

Who the hell knows right now-it is a crazy time we are witnessing and trying to figure out why something is working or not working is very difficult.

 

I know you purchased a Flex and like it-that is great-just wish we could get more people in the showroom at least considering it.

[kyle]

I think you are jumping to a huge conclusion here. You could not have possibly picked a worse time to launch a vehicle like this. In fact, Ford's consumer clinics showed an 80% favorable opinion of the Flex among those aware of it back in June. The problem is people just ain't buying cars like this.

 

The thing with the Traverse, IMO, will be comparing total Lambda sales.... If the Traverse hits 6k, but total Lambda sales only get bumped 2-3k, well, I wouldn't say the Traverse is doing better than the Flex.

 

Don't disagree with you on the time to launch a trendy upscale Ford. The point being is why is it failing to generate hardly any movement? Is it the economy or is it the looks of the vehicle?

 

I agree with you on the GM sisters. If sales are marginally up for the foursome (Saturn needs to disappear) than it will be tough to view as a success. If it takes off and more people come in on the Chevy nameplate and then crossover to the GMC or Buick than you have to give them credit.

[fordmantpw]

I wish that were true but it is not at least based upon my conversations with sales managers, staff and dealer principals. To me someone is not going to walk in and check out a flex-like it but buy a Edge because of cost or a rebate. The vehicles look nothing alike.

 

I could see more of a Traverse customer checking it out and buying a equinox-similar silhouette, front end, etc.

 

The point I was trying to make is that it will draw attention to the brand (the Flex is definitely an attention-getter). Many people may think it looks cool, and think, wow, if Ford can do something like that, what else can they do? This brings them in to check it out, but also see what other vehicles they have. Sort of a halo-car of sorts. Whether that is working or not, I doubt it at this point with the economy the way it is, but I suspect it will change when things turn around.

 

That is really the opposite of the Traverse IMO. Not knocking the Traverse (or the other 3 of the quadruplets), as the Lambdas are actually very nice, and we would probably have one if it weren't for the Flex.

 

Who the hell knows right now-it is a crazy time we are witnessing and trying to figure out why something is working or not working is very difficult.

 

I know you purchased a Flex and like it-that is great-just wish we could get more people in the showroom at least considering it.

 

I agree with you 100% right there. Hopefully things will look drastically different (and better) in 6 (or 9 or 12) months or so.

[V8-X]

<rant>

 

The pics of the Zephyr were, hands down, the worst press photos I have ever seen in my life. Ever. The combination of dead grass, leafless trees, and horrible lighting on the champagne colored Zephyr was enough to make me want to puke. Couple the absolutely abysmal location scouting with the disgusting 'let's tilt the camera to make it look exciting' shot and you've got the worst press photo ever.

 

 

Have to agree. That's one of the worst press pics I've seen of it!

 

Whenever I hear the word "LTZ," I think of some horrible sounding 3.4L engine with a rusted-out muffler on a 1994 Lumina. Usually a 20 something with a backwards cap behind the wheel.

 

Wow, you and me both!!!

 

does anyone here actually go out and drive cars themselves? or, do you just listen to people who get paid to put interesting stuff in a magazine or newspaper article?

 

I do. Before buying my F150, I drove every 1/2 ton on the market (Ford, GMC, Dodge, Nissan & Toyota). Each had their goods and bads, but the F150 was the best overall.

 

Regarding the sunroof-fine RJ it has 3 rows-not a big deal to me-I have an Edge with the sunroof and don't use it as often as I thought I would. But I sure would not spend $700 for a refigerator between the rear console. If you did not buy it from the factory that price goes to almost $2k!

 

How often does anybody use their sunroof? It's nice to have when you do want to use it though.

 

Use the Sunroof in my truck everyday, unless it's snowing or raining or simply too dang cold. So mine is put to good use.

 

...and they're reviewing family haulers. 0-60 times, skid pad numbers, top speed....oh yeah, that's relavent.

 

That's the amazing part, it's just like when they review trucks anymore. All they seem to care about is 0-60 times, top speed and all these sports car type review processes rather than using standards on what a truck should be and how it will be used.

 

That would be nice. Then I might actually participate here a bit more. Now I read.................. but almost never post.

 

I'm starting to get to that point and right there with you. I like an objective opion, but too many times his is a biased one sided opinion that only see's the bad and there is never anything good.

[P71_CrownVic]

Actually I believe that the Escape is considered a Compact SUV/CUV whereas the Edge is considered a Midsize CUV.

 

I thought of that and looked at the dimensions of each...and frankly, seeing that there is no advantage with either in terms of towing, seating, etc...there is not enough difference to justify both being produced.

 

While the Edge is ~10 inches longer than the Escape, most dimensions (R1 and R2 head, shoulder, hip, leg) are within an inch or two of each other. Min cargo room, the Edge has a pathetic 2.9 cubic foot advantage and max car go room, the Edge has a 3.3 cubic foot advantage.

 

I suppose one could try and argue that the Edge has a much better interior...which it probably does considering the Escape's interior is horrible. But why can't the Escape have a nice interior? Why do you need a whole other vehicle just to have a nice interior.

 

If the Edge was truly a "mid-sized" SUV, then it should have a better towing rating over a "compact" SUV.

 

The Explorer is a "mid-sized" SUV...the Edge...is...redundant.

[MarkFive]

I suppose one could try and argue that the Edge has a much better interior...which it probably does considering the Escape's interior is horrible. But why can't the Escape have a nice interior? Why do you need a whole other vehicle just to have a nice interior.

 

You should have a car blog or something. I think you are brilliant. I bet when you speak groups gather around you to listen to your ideas. Perhaps you should start charging - maybe consulting is your forté?

 

Have you ever considered being a car broker?

Edited October 8, 2008 by MarkFive

[RichardJensen]

Is it the economy or is it the looks of the vehicle?

Totally the economy, IMO.

 

Using the same core metrics, the Flex tested higher than the Edge at launch. The measure was 'favorable opinion among shoppers aware of the vehicle', and the Flex was sitting at 80%.

 

That is to say, 4 out of 5 fullsize CUV shoppers who knew about the Flex had a favorable opinion of it.

 

That number is, if you believe Jim Farley, significantly higher than where the Edge was at launch.

 

Back in June (this is from the June conference call), Ford execs were very optimistic about the September advertising push--they acknowledged low Flex sales vis a vis the MKS, but also pointed out that Flex inventory was less than 5% of dealer inventory in June, as opposed to the MKS and LM dealers.

 

At that time, they said that the major push for the Flex would be in September, and true to that, I've noticed Flex commercials on most primetime TV shows--at least the shows I watch.

 

Not much they can do when their target audience is just not buying.

[P71_CrownVic]

Is it the economy or is it the looks of the vehicle?

 

Both.

 

A lot of thing I read say the one partner is for it while the other says "NO!" just based on looks alone. And you can't blame them...