TStag Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 I think it would be. Which is kind of at odds with what most Americans are meant to believe isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosetang Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 I think it would be. Which is kind of at odds with what most Americans are meant to believe isn't it? All public works projects, financial aid, medicare/cade, progressive taxation, publicly financed bond initiatives, Public Campaign Funding, Social Security (it's in the name), and The Bailout are socialist. Despite what many say, all Socialism is not inherently evil and a slippery slope to Communism. The key is knowing when to do what and what kind of limits to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 All public works projects, financial aid, medicare/cade, progressive taxation, publicly financed bond initiatives, Public Campaign Funding, Social Security (it's in the name), and The Bailout are socialist. Despite what many say, all Socialism is not inherently evil and a slippery slope to Communism. The key is knowing when to do what and what kind of limits to have. if its just loans that have to be paid back then cool. if the government starts getting shares and controlling then its an issue. dont forget about education. that is the biggest example of socialism and has been part of our nation before it was a nation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpc655 Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 I think it would be. Which is kind of at odds with what most Americans are meant to believe isn't it? Yeah it is. Socialistic or not though...Would you invest your life savings in a domestic auto company? Most wouldn't..and i dont want the fed borrowing money that me and my kids will pay back to do it either. The "big 3" haven't shown us much to indicate they are fixing their issues...give them a few billion now and i guarantee they'll be back in a few years for more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Yeah it is. Socialistic or not though...Would you invest your life savings in a domestic auto company? Most wouldn't..and i dont want the fed borrowing money that me and my kids will pay back to do it either. The "big 3" haven't shown us much to indicate they are fixing their issues...give them a few billion now and i guarantee they'll be back in a few years for more. finally!!!!!!!!!!!!somebody else see's it....nobody on wall street or elsewhere will invest in the auto companies..lest face it...those people pay 3 grand for a hammer...it does not really matter what the gubment does..its 1980 anymore and in the end detroit north is still gone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 The "big 3" haven't shown us much to indicate they are fixing their issues Are you on drugs, or are you just ignorant? Bill Ford hasn't done much to indicate that he's fixing Ford's issues? Yeah, right, bless your pointed little head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Are you on drugs, or are you just ignorant? Bill Ford hasn't done much to indicate that he's fixing Ford's issues? Yeah, right, bless your pointed little head. Maybe gutting 3 plants and completely changing product lines, all while meeting Toyota on quality doesn't qualify as fixing anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 finally!!!!!!!!!!!!somebody else see's it....nobody on wall street or elsewhere will invest in the auto companies..lest face it...those people pay 3 grand for a hammer...it does not really matter what the gubment does..its 1980 anymore and in the end detroit north is still gone Does the Japanese government help Toyota? YES Does the German government help VW? YES Did the British government...oh, never mind, that one didn't work. There are too many examples of foreign car companies to list but let the American government help it's own and those hypocrites start crying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Does the Japanese government help Toyota? YESDoes the German government help VW? YES Did the British government...oh, never mind, that one didn't work. There are too many examples of foreign car companies to list but let the American government help it's own and those hypocrites start crying. move over there if you want that kind of help...detroit north has whinned for years about others not playing fair...yet detroit south soldiers on and nary a word is heard from them....hmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 move over there if you want that kind of help...detroit north has whinned for years about others not playing fair...yet detroit south soldiers on and nary a word is heard from them....hmmmmm Foreign car companies have always had the deck stacked in their favor and you know it, Detroit had been competing not only against foreign companies but their governments as well. So if the 3 get low interest loans when they need it no, I wouldn't mind. Tell us, are you this upset about the FAR greater assistance the U.S. government is giving to AIG and the banks or is it just the American auto companies that you have a problem with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groundassault Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Well, I think thats an interesting question and since I am a lurker and not someone that replies that much so I wont make this too long. The thing is that there is an unfair challenge that is put on the Americans by the BRIC and other countries. Example: We have to build vehicles in China in order to sell them there. The Chinese are allowed to dump anything they want to this market yet we have to make sure that we help build their economy when we sell products there. Now we don't have china's cars on our roads, but they have the OPPORTUNITY to place whatever products they want. Same with the Japanese, they put unusually high tariffs on our imports. Now can you imagine how the Camry would do against, say the Fusion, if there was an automatic $5000 on top of whatever the cost of it is? If we matched these countries an eye for an eye they would be in trouble because American business men are hawkish. They know how to survive in markets and take what they want. Examples of that is England and Austrailia. Ford is not doing so well here because of the cost burden of say health care, which the Japanese government picks up for their workers. Do you think that the Americans would have more cash and a better chance if they were not burdened by the UAW and CAW? This is just one example and am not basing the whole story on just these few examples. The reason I say this is because companies try to launch cars in this country because it is the most profitable market in the world. What if Toyota and VW had the same restrictions here that they put on the Americans? Its such a loaded question that it makes one wonder what would happen if there was an even playing field. This is just one point of view and by no means proves or disproves the argument but simply a question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Well, I think thats an interesting question and since I am a lurker and not someone that replies that much so I wont make this too long. The thing is that there is an unfair challenge that is put on the Americans by the BRIC and other countries. Example: We have to build vehicles in China in order to sell them there. The Chinese are allowed to dump anything they want to this market yet we have to make sure that we help build their economy when we sell products there. Now we don't have china's cars on our roads, but they have the OPPORTUNITY to place whatever products they want. Same with the Japanese, they put unusually high tariffs on our imports. Now can you imagine how the Camry would do against, say the Fusion, if there was an automatic $5000 on top of whatever the cost of it is? If we matched these countries an eye for an eye they would be in trouble because American business men are hawkish. They know how to survive in markets and take what they want. Examples of that is England and Austrailia. Ford is not doing so well here because of the cost burden of say health care, which the Japanese government picks up for their workers. Do you think that the Americans would have more cash and a better chance if they were not burdened by the UAW and CAW? This is just one example and am not basing the whole story on just these few examples. The reason I say this is because companies try to launch cars in this country because it is the most profitable market in the world. What if Toyota and VW had the same restrictions here that they put on the Americans? Its such a loaded question that it makes one wonder what would happen if there was an even playing field. This is just one point of view and by no means proves or disproves the argument but simply a question. I've always thought some sort of tariff on foreign cars should be instituted (could be small, like a couple hundred for all I care). But then people would complain that the US gov't is practicing protectionism, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 (edited) France, Japan, Korea, China, Germany, and you name it, give money to thier auto industry. Why? To bring the US down. If some whiney GOP slugs cant deal with some kind of social help to Detroit, too $@#$@#& bad. BTW, those Red [neck] States in the south hand over tons of tax breaks to get Benz, Hyundai, Nissan, etc to build plants. Edited November 10, 2008 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 A lot of folk stopped buying British Leyland cars when they went bankrupt so GM will be the first in line to be hit with a massive drop off in sales, Ford have got about a year so l hope they will make it through the storm they should pick-up a lot of GM sales if they go into chapter 11. But GM will come out of it a leaner fitter much smaller company than Ford, but Rick Wagoner says bankruptcy is not an option but his actions are static as GM continue burn through $75 million dollars a day, what is he doing waiting for some of his lottery ticket numbers to come up or not rocking the boat before Chapter 11 arrives? Alan Mulally said on CNBC that Ford had burned through a lot more cash than normal in the last quarter due to changes from old/new model F-150 production rundown/set-up change overs. http://www.cnbc.com/id/27595179 Gotta say it's not not socialist its more to with common sense T-Stag, l can't see how anybody would let 3.5 milliom US big 3 car manufacturing jobs disappear down the swanney river, just think of the tax burden 3.5 million unemployed would place on an already debt laden economy. Obama will add green strings as part of terms and condition attached to bailouts, Alan Mulally will be bringing more fuel efficient vehicles from Europe with little cost to Ford that should meet the terms and conditions of any bailouts, so hopefully Ford should come out of it smelling of roses and a lot bigger than GM will be in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I think that the many question the bail out for this reason: What make anyone think that the NA consumer will buy the cars after the bail out? The American 3 have been building better cars every year, but the market share has been decreasing for them. What happens when the loans come due and the American 3 are unable to pay? Or worse, they need more money? The bullshit fear that 3.5 million would lose their jobs is a half truth. GM and Ford would still produce cars (I think the truck line will be bought by another company) but under Chapter 7. The American 3 board are playing this as a win/win for each company. No matter what happens, the companies win with a bail out, and they win with a Chapter 7 before or after the bail out. GM could become a Phoenix in a few years........ (I think they still own the rights to that name too... :shades:) After the bail out, the Fed would decide what name brands to keep under the reorg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 The big 3 will eventually need bankruptcy to kill off the UAW, not the products/planning etc. I know that's tough for some to handle (though it's blatantly obvious.) Other (unorganized) car makers in the US seem to be able to keep growing/doing ok. I guess it's because their headquarters across the pond/Pacific are hugely subsidized. The LS was my last UAW-built car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpc655 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Are you on drugs, or are you just ignorant? Bill Ford hasn't done much to indicate that he's fixing Ford's issues? Yeah, right, bless your pointed little head. I don't deny they had good intentions..but it wasn't enough. Look at the headlines and financial statements. If they fixed the issues..they wouldn't be asking for billions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Socialism? No. Because bailout does not equal ownership. Feds taking control of AIG and now owns that company, that's socialism. Socialism is ownership and control the means of production and distribution. If a bailout is socialist, then every country in the world is socialist; because business financial assistance, which this is, is available in every country including the USA. Look at tax breaks for businesses, small business loans, so on and so on. There's never been true socialism nor democracy. In reality, all systems requires some level of adjustment to real world senarios. I think it would be. Which is kind of at odds with what most Americans are meant to believe isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 The big 3 will eventually need bankruptcy to kill off the UAW, not the products/planning etc. I know that's tough for some to handle (though it's blatantly obvious.) Other (unorganized) car makers in the US seem to be able to keep growing/doing ok. Once federal card-check laws are passed, I bet we'll see some of the domestic factories unionized. Like it or not, it'll help put everyone on an even footing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versa-Tech Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Once federal card-check laws are passed, I bet we'll see some of the domestic factories unionized. Like it or not, it'll help put everyone on an even footing. So your saying in the best interest of the big 3, that all cars built in the US should be held to a lower standard just to even the footing? Please send me a PM with your dealers name and number. I gotta get ahold of sum o' dat shit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Once federal card-check laws are passed, I bet we'll see some of the domestic factories unionized. Like it or not, it'll help put everyone on an even footing. "...Forget peer pressure, and instead think about union goons strong-arming members to sign up. Toe the line, or else!..." The Union News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tico Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Maybe if people stopped worrying about ideology and started doing what works and what is right we would not be in this mess. Why does the pendulum have to swing from free market chaos to big goverment solcalism and then 8 or 12 years from now back to free market chaos again? Let go of your precious ideology and go donw the middle people. Common sense is what is missing in Washington becuase we are too worried about following ideology be it left or right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Ford Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 Maybe if people stopped worrying about ideology and started doing what works and what is right we would not be in this mess. Let go of your precious ideology and go donw the middle people. Abandon their ideology because they should be following yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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