gary112 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Auto Workers’ 54-Year Safety-Net Pay May Be Scrapped in Talks By Jeff Green and Keith Naughton Feb. 13 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC, trying to keep $17.4 billion in U.S. aid, are asking the United Auto Workers union to end a 54-year-old benefit that ensures almost full pay during layoffs. The so-called “supplemental unemployment benefit,” or “SUB” pay, gives laid-off workers most of their take-home wages. Automakers and the UAW are discussing the future of the program, said people familiar with the talks, who asked not to be named because the negotiations are private. The UAW isn’t negotiating cuts in core wages or benefits, the people said. Lacking the cushion, older union members may retire and make way for new hires who are paid half as much, people familiar with the bargaining strategy said. Members of Congress who opposed an auto bailout criticized the benefits, and the U.S. Treasury loans require the automakers to stop all but “customary severance pay” to laid-off employees. “This would really be unwinding five decades of gains and that would be very, very tough for the union,” said Harley Shaiken, labor-relations professor at University of California in Berkeley. “It was part of Walter Reuther’s dream to have the person on the line treated the same as the white-collar worker,” he said, referring to the longtime UAW president. GM and Chrysler are offering buyouts for most of their 91,000 UAW workers. GM spokeswoman Tony Sapienza had no comment on his company’s labor strategy. UAW spokeswoman Christine Moroski declined to comment on the negotiations. GM and Chrysler must show progress on labor and creditor savings by Feb. 17 as part of the requirements to keep the loans. Long-Standing Benefits The two automakers in the last two weeks eliminated the so- called jobs bank, a 25-year-old program that paid UAW employees their full salary to report to work with no duties to perform, which was also criticized by Congressional Republicans last year. SUB pay gives laid-off workers as much as 95 percent of net pay. For example, a UAW assembly-plant worker takes home about $855 after taxes. If that worker were laid off in Michigan, he would receive about $782, made up of $362 in state unemployment benefits and $420 in company-paid SUB pay, according to union documents and estimates prepared by automakers. “When workers are on layoff, this is critically important in enabling people to pay their mortgage, put food on the table and pay their heating bills,” said UAW legislative affairs director Alan Reuther, a nephew of Walter Reuther, who won the benefit at the bargaining table in 1955. “It also is an incentive for the companies to better plan their operations.” Ford Wants Concessions Ford Motor Co., the only U.S. automaker to forego federal aid, has said it expects to receive whatever concessions the UAW grants GM and Chrysler. Ford negotiators weren’t involved in talks at the union’s Detroit headquarters yesterday, said a source familiar with the situation. Ford spokesman Mark Truby declined to comment. Cutting SUB pay, changing union work rules, such as the definition of so-called skilled-trades workers, and cutting absenteeism are part of an effort to get compensation competitive with the U.S. factories of Japanese automakers, such as Toyota Motor Corp., another requirement of the federal loans. Cutting SUB pay may turn out to be a bad strategy, said Dennis Pawley, the head of manufacturing at former Chrysler Corp. from 1991 to 1998. “SUB pay preserves your workforce,” said Pawley, who was involved in Chrysler’s labor strategy. “Without it you have people marching off looking for another job.” UAW negotiations are expected to go through the weekend with the goal of getting a preliminary agreement before the Feb. 17 report is due, two people familiar with the discussions said. The union is predicating any give-backs on the automakers extracting concessions from their bondholders. ‘Bondholders Will Be Furious’ Advisers to GM’s debt holders are in discussions to reduce $27.5 billion in unsecured debt to about $9.2 billion by swapping for equity, said two people close to the talks. “The bondholders will be furious” that the union won’t consider cuts to wages, medical and pension benefits, Sean McAlinden, chief economist with the Center for Automotive Research, said in an e-mail. “But they already know.” UAW Vice President General Holiefield, in a Jan. 22 letter to UAW local Chrysler presidents said SUB pay might be a target of negotiations. Chrysler President Jim Press said yesterday that the No. 3 U.S. automaker is meeting this week with the UAW and creditors. Chrysler, privately owned by Cerberus Capital Management LP, doesn’t have unsecured debtholders. Forced Hand If GM and Chrysler can’t persuade the UAW and bondholders to agree to new terms, the government could force the automakers to return the loans or convert them into funding for a government- backed bankruptcy. GM Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner told Congress in November that Chapter 11 would lead to liquidation because shoppers won’t buy from a bankrupt automaker. GM also said this week it will eliminate 10,000 of its 73,000 salaried workers and cut the pay of many of those who remain. “At some point the companies are going to pay the price for the experience level of the people walking out the door,” Pawley said. “I worry terribly that the guts have been torn out of these companies.” To contact the reporters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyButt Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Cutting SUB pay, changing union work rules, such as the definition of so-called skilled-trades workers, and cutting absenteeism are part of an effort to get compensation competitive with the U.S. factories of Japanese automakers, such as Toyota Motor Corp., another requirement of the federal loans. What is the change in definition of skilled trades workers that they're talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 What is the change in definition of skilled trades workers that they're talking about? More than likely, the company would like to blend the mechanical trades like they do at AAI. Maybe make more work "incidental", so that the trades already on the job wouldn't have to wait for another trade to come and do their work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forddaughter Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Look for MORE house foreclosures if this happens! That won't help the econony at all. There are 5 auto employees in my housing development who have all been laid off several weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainbownthdrk Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Look for MORE house foreclosures if this happens! That won't help the econony at all. There are 5 auto employees in my housing development who have all been laid off several weeks. With sub-pay, jobs bank, and buyouts gone the only thing left is seniority. That's good if you have it, not if you don't Alot of plants of plants are on down-time ( mine is....Wayne Assembly) and this will really suck without sub-pay. I wonder if when I get back Ford would let me work two shifts ......one in trades on day shift and one in production on afternoons? It would help me make up for all the shit we are giving up! ie: overtime, and sub-pay. Just a thought :reading: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allin Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) Cutting SUB pay, changing union work rules, such as the definition of so-called skilled-trades workers, and cutting absenteeism are part of an effort to get compensation competitive with the U.S. factories of Japanese automakers, such as Toyota Motor Corp., another requirement of the federal loans. WTF! Who wrote this shit! So-called writers aka assholes! Edited February 14, 2009 by allin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 the definition of so-called skilled-trades workers Care to elaborate on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allin Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Care to elaborate on that? Not sure what you mean. I didn't write the article, but it sounds like the writers are putting down the skilled trades calling them "so called". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moukanoid Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Pure rumour, but from a source who is usually correct in regard to rumours. Ford is trying to get SUB reduced to cover 70% of a lost wage week. If true, it is better than losing SUB completely as being discussed at GM and Chrysler but less than what we are currently recieving. :reading: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Not sure what you mean. I didn't write the article, but it sounds like the writers are putting down the skilled trades calling them "so called". Gotcha. Thought the "putting down" was coming from you, and not the article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpc655 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 With sub-pay, jobs bank, and buyouts gone the only thing left is seniority. That's good if you have it, not if you don't Alot of plants of plants are on down-time ( mine is....Wayne Assembly) and this will really suck without sub-pay. I wonder if when I get back Ford would let me work two shifts ......one in trades on day shift and one in production on afternoons? It would help me make up for all the shit we are giving up! ie: overtime, and sub-pay. Just a thought :reading: Welcome to the real world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm2607 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Welcome to the real worldquit posting here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganTruck_Mafia Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Pure rumour, but from a source who is usually correct in regard to rumours. Ford is trying to get SUB reduced to cover 70% of a lost wage week. If true, it is better than losing SUB completely as being discussed at GM and Chrysler but less than what we are currently recieving. :reading: But the problem is if GM/Chrysler get rid of sub, Ford will too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTP'er Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 What the HELL does this Goverment think there doing?????? Sure reduce sub or even better yet get rid of it all together. Do these dumb ass know what there doing??? Sure I'll stand in line to collect food stamps that I'm not collecting now while they push me out of the middle class because I'm layed off more than I work. And While I'm collecting food stamps and walking away from my home so I can live in an apt and don't have to worry about paying property taxes and my house sits empty and it costs my mortgage company $40,000.00 to foreclose on my house and now the property value falls because the house only sold for half of what it once was worth. Sure lets do away with sub pay, unemployment, food stamps and any other type of goverment assitance. Lets just say F**K IT!! :titanic: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleu Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 What the HELL does this Goverment think there doing?????? Sure reduce sub or even better yet get rid of it all together. Do these dumb ass know what there doing??? Sure I'll stand in line to collect food stamps that I'm not collecting now while they push me out of the middle class because I'm layed off more than I work. And While I'm collecting food stamps and walking away from my home so I can live in an apt and don't have to worry about paying property taxes and my house sits empty and it costs my mortgage company $40,000.00 to foreclose on my house and now the property value falls because the house only sold for half of what it once was worth. Sure lets do away with sub pay, unemployment, food stamps and any other type of goverment assitance. Lets just say F**K IT!! :titanic: Excellant point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereswaldo Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Auto Workers’ 54-Year Safety-Net Pay May Be Scrapped in Talks By Jeff Green and Keith Naughton The so-called “supplemental unemployment benefit,” or “SUB” pay, gives laid-off workers most of their take-home wages. SUB pay gives laid-off workers as much as 95 percent of net pay. For example, a UAW assembly-plant worker takes home about $855 after taxes. If that worker were laid off in Michigan, he would receive about $782, made up of $362 in state unemployment benefits and $420 in company-paid SUB pay, according to union documents and estimates prepared by automakers. This is where the argument is screwed up. The $855 is pay after taxes. The Sub/Mesc is $782 BEFORE TAXES !!! Lets compare apples to apples here. With at least another $100 coming out of the 782 if taxes were figured in, how is this 95% of our pay ?? Un @#+* believable......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpc655 Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 quit posting here. Ignorance is bliss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makeastand Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 This is where the argument is screwed up. The $855 is pay after taxes. The Sub/Mesc is $782 BEFORE TAXES !!! Lets compare apples to apples here. With at least another $100 coming out of the 782 if taxes were figured in, how is this 95% of our pay ?? Un @#+* believable......... Yea it is a bunch of bull shit that they even make it public what we make. It is no bodies business but ours. But if they are going to tell the world at least they could get it right. Kentucky unemployment is $373 after taxes and my sub pay is $277 after taxes. A total of $650 after taxes. Now I would like to see total compensation figures of all politicians and execs. They caused this mess to begin with and are being paid far more than their forign counterparts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTP Refug Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 This is where the argument is screwed up. The $855 is pay after taxes. The Sub/Mesc is $782 BEFORE TAXES !!! Lets compare apples to apples here. With at least another $100 coming out of the 782 if taxes were figured in, how is this 95% of our pay ?? Un @#+* believable......... Thank you, you hit the nail right on the head. Too bad the media doesn't print the truth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiteford Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 This is where the argument is screwed up. The $855 is pay after taxes. The Sub/Mesc is $782 BEFORE TAXES !!! Lets compare apples to apples here. With at least another $100 coming out of the 782 if taxes were figured in, how is this 95% of our pay ?? Un @#+* believable......... Great point. What I don't understand is I thought sub was already funded. When JSP is ended isn't the money to be put into SUB. I dont't see why the union would even be discussing this. I would think between the two there would be more than enough money to keep it where it is currently. Is SUB a joint program like JSP? If it is not it will have to be voted on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Great point. What I don't understand is I thought sub was already funded. Maybe they want the funds back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Maybe they want the funds back. No more concessions until they fulfill their new product commitments in our current contract! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the prisoner Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 hey did not the uaw vote to take 160 milion for organizing from sub fund if they want a cut then all uaw officers can repay the money and take a concession too. hear that gettlefucker you got a raise before healthcare concession where is your pain wait you get a second pension from the uaw yaeh feel the pain put the money back you fucking crooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udontkno Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 It is my understanding that JSP and SUB were funded when we ratified the last contract. I think the union should request the funds that funded these programs and let the UAW run them. This will take it off of the Big 3's books and it would no longer be an issue because the union is not asking for the bridge loan. Similar to the VEBA, although the VEBA wasnt funded at ratification and is a point of contention going forward. This would also show the workers at the non union transplants that being in a union has its advantages and possibly help unions organize these transplants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talan423 Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Here ya go... tell him what you think of his math and the "So called skilled trades" comment! To contact the reporter on this story: Jeff Green in Southfield, Michigan, at jgreen16@bloomberg.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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