An overview of Panther's demise

[F250]

Again.

 

You're an idiot.

 

CD4 is being designed in NA.

 

Ford's trucks are being designed in NA.

 

ALL of Ford's gas engines are designed in NA.

 

Suggesting that Ford design ALL its vehicles in NA is idiotic. Suggesting that Ford build ALL its cars in the US is idiotic.

 

Suggesting that Ford is largely responsible for the historically average unemployment rate is idiotic.

 

You're an idiot.

 

And you're off your medication. Lighten up.

 

Your name calling is getting annoying, I bet if we were having this discussion face to face over a couple of beers you wouldn't be so offensive...I guarantee it.

[RichardJensen]

And you're off your medication. Lighten up.

 

Your name calling is getting annoying, I bet if we were having this discussion face to face over a couple of beers you wouldn't be so offensive...I guarantee it.

 

I would've paid my tab and left. I guarantee it.

[jpd80]

The blindness of you chearleaders.

 

Introducing the new Ford Motor Company: Designed in Europe, built in Mexico and sold to unemployed Americans. Henry would roll over.

 

Yep, it's as bad as Jeeps being assembled in a Hyundai plant...oops....

 

I hear your pain but I'm afraid that the Ford you know is dead and replaced by one with completely

different objectives. This new Ford is all about profit and cutting out production it sees as duplication.

I am concerned with the heavy biasing of FWD/AWDs products and feel that a couple of well placed

RWDs would break up the monotony - But that is just my opinion.

 

Recently, they had a Taurus SHO at FoA for evaluation but from all reports

it felt pretty ordinary to drive compared to the Falcon XR6 Turbo.

Edited July 8, 2010 by jpd80

[taxman100]

The blindness of you chearleaders.

 

Introducing the new Ford Motor Company: Designed in Europe, built in Mexico and sold to unemployed Americans. Henry would roll over.

 

 

Yep - I don't understand how buying a Ford any much different than buying any foreign nameplate - take your choice. Should I buy an Accord built up the road in Marysville, OH, or a Fusion built in Mexico, and full of Mexican and Chinese parts?

 

I give Ford credit for not being on the government dole, but they are an American corporation - short term profits that benefit upper management is their main goal, then stockholders, and customers come down the list, just before employees.

[630land]

Glad to hear the last Grand Marq is 9/30/10.

 

Can't wait til it's all over, and the end of all the 'but if they could...' posts. Time to move on!!

 

Taxicabs will move to Transit, Taurus, or Escapes. Police have Taurus and Explorers, Livery owners can get MK's. The Town Car name is sullied, now taxi companies have genericized it in ads, 'we have town cars for hire'. [small letters!].

[FordBuyer]

Interesting how this website has turned into a giant cheerleading section for any and all decisions made by Ford. I remember in the old days where it was a much more even handed place.

 

Let's be honest - Ford blew it with this platform, and is replacing it with an inferior product because they can build a large sedan that can be cobbed off of a global platform on the cheap.

 

Sure, the new federal CAFE requirements are part of it, but Ford gave up on this platform over a decade ago. When the 2003 major up was cancelled, and just a few chassis improvements were done, the writing was on the wall.

 

Even though I could pay cash for a new car, my wife and I are keeping what we have and driving them as long as possible. Long term durability and reliability is main attributes I look for, which doesn't appear promising with the upcoming vehicles and all the new technology.

 

As Toyota found out with drive by wire, which is why I keep my old school Corolla instead of buying a new one.

 

 

Watch it Taxman. There is a poster on here who will clobber you over the head about you being an "old" guy living in the past. No matter how constructive you try to be, some on here act like Ford is completely perfect in everything they do. Lately, Ford is eliminating far more vehicles than it's adding. Only one new vehicle is being added while the eliminations are close to double digit. I personally prefer FWD for many reasons and have no use for AWD, but I also see a market for RWD, but Ford is intent on being a FWD company except for pony car and a few pickups. Lots of opportunities for other manufacturers to offer more RWD vehicles if you ask me. Just like Subaru can sell everything they make offering small wagons with AWD.

[FordBuyer]

This may be hard to quantify, but how many extra sales do the 300 and Charger get because the Sebring and Avenger suck so bad?

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I was always under the impression that Chrysler went with RWD on the 300 and the Charger because they wanted to offer the 365hp Hemi as an option. I know quite a few Ford guys who bought R/T Chargers with Hemis because Ford didn't offer them a sport sedan quite like this with V8 power. There is something about a full sized sedan with V8 power. And they get better fuel mileage than an Edge or Flex and are a lot faster. The Hemi Charger sounds everybit as good as a Mustang. Again, I'm not a Hemi fan, but I see why people are attracted to the Hemi power. Now a V6 300 and Charger is boring. Kind of like the Cologne V6 Mustang,

[BrewfanGRB]

Watch it Taxman. There is a poster on here who will clobber you over the head about you being an "old" guy living in the past. No matter how constructive you try to be, some on here act like Ford is completely perfect in everything they do. Lately, Ford is eliminating far more vehicles than it's adding. Only one new vehicle is being added while the eliminations are close to double digit.

 

Come one, FordBuyer. What's really being eliminated? Mariner, Grand Marquis, Mountaineer, Milan, Town Car, Crown Vic (is that even sold at retail anymore? I really have no idea. If not, it doesn't count). That's six. What am I missing? If I did miss something, by all means, let me know. After all, you wouldn't stoop to using inaccurate hyperbole to support your argument, would you?

 

Regardless, eliminating Mercury is moot. It's not "eliminating a model" when there is still the Fusion, the Explorer, the Escape and the Explorer. To contend that Mercury needed to be kept because ANY reason is silly at the end of the day, because the volume simply doesn't support the need. So "eliminating the model" is irrelevant.

 

Ford ISN'T perfect. There are some things I wish it could do better or be better focused on. But, refreshing a product that not enough people want (even if completely updated) is NOT one of those things.

[BrewfanGRB]

TThe Hemi Charger sounds everybit as good as a Mustang.

 

Well, you've done it. You've succeeded in shutting me down. I'm done with you, because you've clearly jumped right off the edge.

[FordBuyer]

Come one, FordBuyer. What's really being eliminated? Mariner, Grand Marquis, Mountaineer, Milan, Town Car, Crown Vic (is that even sold at retail anymore? I really have no idea. If not, it doesn't count). That's six. What am I missing? If I did miss something, by all means, let me know. After all, you wouldn't stoop to using inaccurate hyperbole to support your argument, would you?

 

Regardless, eliminating Mercury is moot. It's not "eliminating a model" when there is still the Fusion, the Explorer, the Escape and the Explorer. To contend that Mercury needed to be kept because ANY reason is silly at the end of the day, because the volume simply doesn't support the need. So "eliminating the model" is irrelevant.

 

Ford ISN'T perfect. There are some things I wish it could do better or be better focused on. But, refreshing a product that not enough people want (even if completely updated) is NOT one of those things.

 

 

Ranger and Sport Trac are going bye-bye also. That makes 8. A couple years before that Lincoln Aviator and LS, two other RWD vehicles went bye-bye. And I think you can write an obituary for Navigator soon also. Yeah, Ford has gotten rid of a fair number of vehicles in the last few years with more to come next year. And no, I won't include Jag, LR, and Volvo vehicles. I don't have enough fingers to count the Ford branded vehicle that have left in last few years. I don't give Flex more than a couple more years either as it looks to me like Explorer and Flex compete for same buyer just as Taurus X and Flex did. The Explorer in no longer a truck, but a CUV like the Flex.

[Edstock]

Again, I'm not a Hemi fan, but I see why people are attracted to the Hemi power. Now a V6 300 and Charger is boring. Kind of like the Cologne V6 Mustang,

They've got their market, and overall, it's a decent chassis. The door/window technology is getting a little clunky and the interiors are not quite competitive, in areas like how the air vents are done and the materials they're made from.

 

But, they've got a new V-6, which appears to be impressive, and around 300hp. Swapping that iron-block Hemi has got to help the weight distribution. IIRC an alloy-block Hemi is not available.

 

I don't believe the market is worthwhile for Ford to tool up for a RWD sedan at the Charger's price-point. But I believe we will see a RWD Lincoln, because the Mustang 5.0 powertrain is just too good not to use with a Lincoln grille, somehow. The chassis could serve as a starting-point for the next Oz Falcon.

[FordBuyer]

Well, you've done it. You've succeeded in shutting me down. I'm done with you, because you've clearly jumped right off the edge.

 

I owned a 5.0 L Mustang for 17 years, so I know how they sound. But GM's 350 cubic inch Corvette V8 and Chrysler's Hemi V8 are just as venerable and inconic. All three need RWD platforms to reach full potential. My neighbor has a Hemi Charger and the sound of it starting up out my window and moving off idle is music to the ears of a V8 lover. And I love the delightful burble of Mustang V8. Btw, she was a previous Ford Loyalist, but Ford didn't make what she wanted. She wanted four doors and RWD sedan.

[FordBuyer]

They've got their market, and overall, it's a decent chassis. The door/window technology is getting a little clunky and the interiors are not quite competitive, in areas like how the air vents are done and the materials they're made from.

 

But, they've got a new V-6, which appears to be impressive, and around 300hp. Swapping that iron-block Hemi has got to help the weight distribution. IIRC an alloy-block Hemi is not available.

 

I don't believe the market is worthwhile for Ford to tool up for a RWD sedan at the Charger's price-point. But I believe we will see a RWD Lincoln, because the Mustang 5.0 powertrain is just too good not to use with a Lincoln grille, somehow. The chassis could serve as a starting-point for the next Oz Falcon.

 

I would hope to see the Mustang V8 in a RWD Thunderbird also. A Thunderbird and MKR would make the project a little more palatable. I really don't see how a very successful Ford could go too many years without a Thunderbird. Arguably, the T-Bird is as important to Ford as Mustang. We baby boomers do have money and there are lots of us out there.

[FordBuyer]

They've got their market, and overall, it's a decent chassis. The door/window technology is getting a little clunky and the interiors are not quite competitive, in areas like how the air vents are done and the materials they're made from.

 

But, they've got a new V-6, which appears to be impressive, and around 300hp. Swapping that iron-block Hemi has got to help the weight distribution. IIRC an alloy-block Hemi is not available.

 

I don't believe the market is worthwhile for Ford to tool up for a RWD sedan at the Charger's price-point. But I believe we will see a RWD Lincoln, because the Mustang 5.0 powertrain is just too good not to use with a Lincoln grille, somehow. The chassis could serve as a starting-point for the next Oz Falcon.

[BrewfanGRB]

Ranger and Sport Trac are going bye-bye also. That makes 8. A couple years before that Lincoln Aviator and LS, two other RWD vehicles went bye-bye. And I think you can write an obituary for Navigator soon also. Yeah, Ford has gotten rid of a fair number of vehicles in the last few years with more to come next year. And no, I won't include Jag, LR, and Volvo vehicles. I don't have enough fingers to count the Ford branded vehicle that have left in last few years. I don't give Flex more than a couple more years either as it looks to me like Explorer and Flex compete for same buyer just as Taurus X and Flex did. The Explorer in no longer a truck, but a CUV like the Flex.

 

Ok, I didn't know about the Sport Trac. But to say the Ranger is going away is still speculation--is it likely to be gone? Maybe--but presumably, it will be replaced by something. (And if it's not, I'll give you credit--it'll be done). You can't really "count" the Aviator and LS---because they were replaced by the MKX and MKS. (Maybe not comparably--but still, 2 models went away and 2 "new" models were introduced. They don't count).

 

How many Ford-branded vehicles "left" in the last few years? You can't count Taurus X--it was a wagon version of the Taurus. You can't count the Thunderbird (it was never designed to be a permanent addition to the line up). And getting rid of LR/Jag/Volvo were smart business decisions for the company--not cutting "models". I just think you're overthinking/over-emphasizing this. Every manufacturer discontinues/launches models. It's evolution.

[BrewfanGRB]

I owned a 5.0 L Mustang for 17 years, so I know how they sound. But GM's 350 cubic inch Corvette V8 and Chrysler's Hemi V8 are just as venerable and inconic. All three need RWD platforms to reach full potential. My neighbor has a Hemi Charger and the sound of it starting up out my window and moving off idle is music to the ears of a V8 lover. And I love the delightful burble of Mustang V8.

 

I totally agree. But my point is you said a Charger (which has become a rental fleet queen/cop car) was as good as a Mustang, I just can't reconcile that. 2 different cars, 2 different uses, 2 different target markets. The Mustang just keeps getting better (you can't say that it isn't--Ford is still putting TONS of resources into what is effectively its "halo" car--better FE with more power, all the "cool" features you find in other Fords (Sync, for example), better refinement, on and on). The Charger is dying on the vine because Dodge is getting pulled in a dozen directions to try to save itself. And it NEVER was a refined family sedan that happened to have power.

[silvrsvt]

While the Sport Trac was cool, the sales of it have fallen off a cliff...in the past couple years, I barely see them on the road anymore.

[akirby]

While the Sport Trac was cool, the sales of it have fallen off a cliff...in the past couple years, I barely see them on the road anymore.

 

What does that have to do with it? Ford is in business to satisfy our wildest wants and desires, not to make money. They should be building RWD everything with 800 hp and 40 mpg. Ford management is stupid. Cutting production is stupid. Cancelling the LS was stupid. Moving the Explorer to unibody/FWD/AWD is stupid. Not updating the Ranger is stupid. Killing Mercury is stupid. Killing the panthers is stupid. D3 is a failure.

 

Did I cover everything?

[akirby]

Ranger and Sport Trac are going bye-bye also. That makes 8. A couple years before that Lincoln Aviator and LS, two other RWD vehicles went bye-bye. And I think you can write an obituary for Navigator soon also. Yeah, Ford has gotten rid of a fair number of vehicles in the last few years with more to come next year. And no, I won't include Jag, LR, and Volvo vehicles. I don't have enough fingers to count the Ford branded vehicle that have left in last few years. I don't give Flex more than a couple more years either as it looks to me like Explorer and Flex compete for same buyer just as Taurus X and Flex did. The Explorer in no longer a truck, but a CUV like the Flex.

 

So you believe that Ford should continue building vehicles even if they're losing money? And if you want to go back to the Aviator and LS, then let's count all the new vehicles since then:

 

Flex, MKT, MKS, MKX, Edge, Fusion, Fiesta, Transit Connect. There are your 8 NEW vehicles to replace the 8 they're (supposedly) discontinuing. I still think the Ranger and Sport Trac will be replaced with a global Ranger including a crew cab.

 

The Aviator was crap. I owned one. It needed to die. The LS was a good engineering exercise but not practical or cost effective. The market for the Explorer already moved to CUVs. Explorer is just following the market. If they were still selling 400K/yr then they wouldn't have changed it. Mercury sales weren't worth the effort and the Panthers just don't measure up to modern standards and fleet sales alone are not enough to sustain them.

 

If you look at the volume of vehicles that Ford has discontinued to date, it's miniscule, especially compared to the volume on the new ones.

[jpd80]

Yes.

 

All during the GRWD euphoria, I kept posting "I've seen this movie a couple of times before and the business case likely is the same or potentially even worse. So what's changed to make people think this is viable, other than 'it sounds good'". Answer: nothing.

 

In some cases, capital might be put into projects that on their own have a lower ROI, but are vital to the existence of the company -- mainly electrics.

 

Sorta like at home. I'm lusting for a BMW S1000RR as a nice complement to my other bike, but my wife doesn't say "You can't have it. You'll kill yourself." She merely negotiates other more vital expenses (like food, clothing, and taxes) and projects above it to the point where it keeps falling below the line.

Something just occurred to me, the opportunities for FoA and Falcon don't really lie in a LHD program,

there are a lot of RHD countries in the Ford Asia Pacific South Africa region that might be interested

in the room and fuel economy afforded by the Ecoboost I-4 Falcon and also the V6 diesel Territory.

With barely any additional engineering costs, there's every possibility of increasing production by 30-50%....

Such a business plan would be music to Dearborn's ears, a regional car that earns its keep.

 

And while none of this has anything directly to do with the Panther's demise,

it shows that Ford is now insisting that it's new big cars must have engines

that deliver outstanding fuel economy whether they be FWD or RWD.

Edited July 13, 2010 by jpd80

[FordBuyer]

But my point is you said a Charger (which has become a rental fleet queen/cop car) was as good as a Mustang, I just can't reconcile that. 2 different cars, 2 different uses, 2 different target markets.

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Please don't put words in my mouth. All I said is that the RWD Hemi Charger sounds as good as a RWD Mustang. Yes, they are two different vehicles, but the Hemi Charger appeals to a market somewhat similar to the Mustang GT in that both have awesome V8's. With an updated 300 and Charger coming shortly, we will see how much of a market there is for RWD vehicles. Or should I say RWD biased vehicles with zero torque steer. When you are sporting over 400hp or thereabouts, it's nice to have the rear wheels spin a little rather than the front wheels.

 

I'm a Ford guy and always have been, but I want to see the other two domestic companies do well also. And I want Chrysler's lineup of RWD vehicles to do well to show that there is still a market for RWD biased vehicles. There will always be a high perfmance market no matter how small, and I hope Ford stays in it and does compete in the RWD biased high performance market with some awesome halo cars other than just the Mustang. With Ford going almost exclusively to FWD biased vehicles, you even have to wonder how long a RWD Mustang will be around if it's the only RWD vehicle left other than pickups.

[FordBuyer]

And AGAIN, it's not the fact that Ford is ending the RWD Panthers and the RWD Ranger that has many Ford fans upset on here, it's IMO the fact that Ford has no publicly announced RWD replacements for them. So it leads one to believe that Ford is getting out of the RWD biased market. FWD and RWD have their advantages and disadvantages. And with AWD available, disandvantages of both systems can be mitigated. Ford announced the end of the Panthers years ago, and most including me really thought by the time they bit the dust, Ford would be showing replacements for them. Well, the replacement is a FWD Taurus and FWD CUV Explorer. I really didn't expect Ford to replace the Crown Vic with another RWD vehicle, but I expect to see a RWD MKR and a RWD Thunderbird. Please no FWD Thunderbird. It would have been nice for Ford to hint at these two vehicles while the rest of the RWD Ford fleet goes to their grave.

[NickF1011]

And AGAIN, it's not the fact that Ford is ending the RWD Panthers and the RWD Ranger that has many Ford fans upset on here, it's IMO the fact that Ford has no publicly announced RWD replacements for them. So it leads one to believe that Ford is getting out of the RWD biased market. FWD and RWD have their advantages and disadvantages. And with AWD available, disandvantages of both systems can be mitigated. Ford announced the end of the Panthers years ago, and most including me really thought by the time they bit the dust, Ford would be showing replacements for them. Well, the replacement is a FWD Taurus and FWD CUV Explorer. I really didn't expect Ford to replace the Crown Vic with another RWD vehicle, but I expect to see a RWD MKR and a RWD Thunderbird. Please no FWD Thunderbird. It would have been nice for Ford to hint at these two vehicles while the rest of the RWD Ford fleet goes to their grave.

 

It is poor business sense to hint at a product that is still several years off. Why let the competition know what you are up to? It's not like consumers plan their vehicle purchases 3-4 years in advance.

[akirby]

And AGAIN, it's not the fact that Ford is ending the RWD Panthers and the RWD Ranger that has many Ford fans upset on here, it's IMO the fact that Ford has no publicly announced RWD replacements for them. So it leads one to believe that Ford is getting out of the RWD biased market. FWD and RWD have their advantages and disadvantages. And with AWD available, disandvantages of both systems can be mitigated. Ford announced the end of the Panthers years ago, and most including me really thought by the time they bit the dust, Ford would be showing replacements for them. Well, the replacement is a FWD Taurus and FWD CUV Explorer. I really didn't expect Ford to replace the Crown Vic with another RWD vehicle, but I expect to see a RWD MKR and a RWD Thunderbird. Please no FWD Thunderbird. It would have been nice for Ford to hint at these two vehicles while the rest of the RWD Ford fleet goes to their grave.

 

This is really, really simple. Ford WANTS RWD sedans. They started the Global RWD program to do just that. But it's almost impossible to justify a program like that when you're in debt for $32B and not yet making a consistent profit AND you still have major gaps in your product lineup that need to be filled first (like the Fiesta).

 

If you were mortgaged to the hilt and barely making your monthly bill payments would you go out and splurge on a brand new shiny BMW? Not if you're smart.

 

Had Ford been smart enough to do GRWD 5 or 10 years ago they wouldn't be in this position today. But that's water under the bridge. Now that Ford is profitable and the Ford brand itself has been reinvented there is a good possibility of some type of RWD sedan platform for Ford and/or Lincoln - you just need to be patient.

[FordBuyer]

It is poor business sense to hint at a product that is still several years off. Why let the competition know what you are up to? It's not like consumers plan their vehicle purchases 3-4 years in advance.

 

I have to say...Mulally has done a good job of shutting up the deepthroats in the Ford organization. Everyone seems to be very tight lipped about what Ford is up to. It wasn't that long ago that Igor was giving away lots of Ford secrets on here on daily basis. Those days seem to be gone. I think we all miss it and have to wait for Ford's press releases like everyone else. Ford suppliers don't even have big mouths anymore and give away programs to Automotive News. I don't even know that AN gets super accurate production figures from Ford as no one knows there how many Mustangs Ford makes at AA2. So I do imagine we won't know about any Ford RWD programs until vehicle is only months away from production. It would be easy to disguise a RWD mule in a FWD body.