GM Not as Debt Free as We've Been Told?

[Harley Lover]

There's an article in this week's Automotive News which centers of Ford's and GM's focus on reducing debt. There were some surprising (to me, anyway) figures for GM debt contained in the article, thought I would share this info with you:

 

...That leaves Ford with about $27 billion in debt, much of it borrowed in late 2006 for its turnaround. GM's debt is $15.4 billion.

 

and

 

 

He also said GM should fully fund its pension plan, which has $26.8 billion in unfunded global pension obligations. Ford's global pensions were 82 percent funded on Dec. 31, with $11.96 billion in unfunded obligations.

 

So, from these facts, GM has 42.2 billion in liabilities, Ford has 39 billion. And this is debt, not O/E owed to the government. The article does not categorically state that the "debt" attributed to GM is long term (versus short term, revolving line debt), but since the GM debt is mentioned in context with Ford's publicly acknowledged debt load, presumably it's in the same class. Why hasn't this information been put to the public before now? I think this is very significant information - the conventional wisdom about GM has been that since it emerged from BK, it's "debt free" when in fact GM is anything but. In fact, they have MORE DEBT THAN FORD. I'm shocked.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Harley Lover

[FordBuyer]

There's an article in this week's Automotive News which centers of Ford's and GM's focus on reducing debt. There were some surprising (to me, anyway) figures for GM debt contained in the article, thought I would share this info with you:

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

So, from these facts, GM has 42.2 billion in liabilities, Ford has 39 billion. And this is debt, not O/E owed to the government. The article does not categorically state that the "debt" attributed to GM is long term (versus short term, revolving line debt), but since the GM debt is mentioned in context with Ford's publicly acknowledged debt load, presumably it's in the same class. Why hasn't this information been put to the public before now? I think this is very significant information - the conventional wisdom about GM has been that since it emerged from BK, it's "debt free" when in fact GM is anything but. In fact, they have MORE DEBT THAN FORD. I'm shocked.

 

Also, how much does GM owe the UAW VEBA Trust Fund? I know Ford just funded more of its VEBA last week along with paying off debt. I assume GM has lots more UAW retirees out there than Ford does and the VEBA Trust Fund will need more funding because of it. Or are they grouping in VEBA under Pension liabilities?

[RichardJensen]

Pension funding is a bit complicated, and based on assumptions about future returns based on prior returns.

 

Because the market was in the tank last year, most pensions are looking underfunded, based on the complicated math & assumptions the Feds require in order to report pension funding.

 

(Why do the Feds mandate a certain pension formula? Because unscrupulous businesses could toss a dollar into the pension fund and assert that it was fully funded---based on an assumption that the dollar would earn a 10,000,000,000% return the first year. While it was never as bad as that, the assumptions that used to underlie 'fully funded' pensions were pretty bad at times).

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Pension funding is a bit complicated, and based on assumptions about future returns based on prior returns.

 

Because the market was in the tank last year, most pensions are looking underfunded, based on the complicated math & assumptions the Feds require in order to report pension funding.

 

(Why do the Feds mandate a certain pension formula? Because unscrupulous businesses could toss a dollar into the pension fund and assert that it was fully funded---based on an assumption that the dollar would earn a 10,000,000,000% return the first year. While it was never as bad as that, the assumptions that used to underlie 'fully funded' pensions were pretty bad at times).

 

 

You be alright Richard the companies will sort the pension mess out, despite record obesity/cancer rates being at sky high level our health service say children won't live as long as their parents did, but the company pension schemes will tell you that boomers are going to live for ever so you can pay double the amount in to get out half the pension you once thought you were going to get out, instead of retiring at 65 you will have to stay on till your 80 instead or drop dead whatever comes first.

 

They are the lucky ones.

 

 

[BrewfanGRB]

You be alright Richard the companies will sort the pension mess out, despite record obesity/cancer rates being at sky high level our health service say children won't live as long as their parents did, but the company pension schemes will tell you that boomers are going to live for ever so you can pay double the amount in to get out half the pension you once thought you were going to get out, instead of retiring at 65 you will have to stay on till your 80 instead or drop dead whatever comes first.

 

They are the lucky ones.

 

What the??? That's a 90 word sentence. NINETY WORDS!! And none of it makes any sense. Are you sure English is your first language? Jesus.

[FordBuyer]

You be alright Richard the companies will sort the pension mess out, despite record obesity/cancer rates being at sky high level our health service say children won't live as long as their parents did, but the company pension schemes will tell you that boomers are going to live for ever so you can pay double the amount in to get out half the pension you once thought you were going to get out, instead of retiring at 65 you will have to stay on till your 80 instead or drop dead whatever comes first.

 

They are the lucky ones.

 

Yeah, it doesn't look like the fast food, computer gaming generation is going to have a long life. When some adolescents and teenagers are already suffering from high blood pressure and diabetes 2, their future doesn't look good. The generation approaching old age now may be the last generation that lives older than their parents on average. Doesn't look good for the Surge, Mountain Dew, flip flop generation with hepatitas B piercings and tattoos.

[RichardJensen]

Doesn't look good for the Surge, Mountain Dew, flip flop generation with hepatitas B piercings and tattoos.

 

Oh good grief.

 

What about the widespread recreational drug use among baby boomers? Surely that means they will live shorter lives than their parents, right?

[Edstock]

What about the widespread recreational drug use among baby boomers?

Yeah, but it's just recreational; it's not like you need it for work all the time.

[FordBuyer]

Oh good grief.

 

What about the widespread recreational drug use among baby boomers? Surely that means they will live shorter lives than their parents, right?

 

 

Every generation has its self destructive types, but never has obesity hit the epidmic limits it has now. We do know that obesity will shorten your life even more than smoking and occasional pot smoking. Add in present day tribalism with all the self mutilating piercings and excessive tattooing, and it's not a pretty picture. And these kids walking miles year after year in flat $1 flip flops must be a gold mine for podiatrists as they age. Not that a lot of this isn't cross generational now, but obesity in kids is especially scary. Kids don't much ride bikes nowadays and parks are pretty much empty even in summer. Not a pretty picture. Lots of reasons for it. Americans are getting bigger and bigger, and most of it is weight. To keep it an auto post, Ford needs to make its seats bigger, and cushion needs to be deeper and wider.

[BrewfanGRB]

Every generation has its self destructive types, but never has obesity hit the epidmic limits it has now. We do know that obesity will shorten your life even more than smoking and occasional pot smoking. Add in present day tribalism with all the self mutilating piercings and excessive tattooing, and it's not a pretty picture. And these kids walking miles year after year in flat $1 flip flops must be a gold mine for podiatrists as they age. Not that a lot of this isn't cross generational now, but obesity in kids is especially scary. Kids don't much ride bikes nowadays and parks are pretty much empty even in summer. Not a pretty picture. Lots of reasons for it. Americans are getting bigger and bigger, and most of it is weight. To keep it an auto post, Ford needs to make its seats bigger, and cushion needs to be deeper and wider.

 

Well, as long as they stay off your lawn, what do you care? Flip flops? This is an overwhelming problem?

[FordBuyer]

Well, as long as they stay off your lawn, what do you care? Flip flops? This is an overwhelming problem?

 

Add in bedroom slippers and pajamas in public, and I've seen it all. Even ripped, dirty pajamas in public. There is online site out there that shows Americans in all their glory at the local Walmart...it's hilarious and sad at the same time.

[RichardJensen]

Every generation has its self destructive types, but never has obesity hit the epidmic limits it has now.

Please.

 

Spare me the recycled headlines. Maybe we should go back to the good ol' days, with dioxins spewing out of every factory chimney, glass IVs and hypodermics, lead paint, DDT, negligible wastewater treatment, formaldehyde belching out of Hemis, incredibly dangerous cars and tires, and rampant groundwater contamination.

 

You can isolate *any* statistic you want and make a big screeching deal about it. Try and have some perspective.

[7Mary3]

Pension funding is a bit complicated, and based on assumptions about future returns based on prior returns.

 

Because the market was in the tank last year, most pensions are looking underfunded, based on the complicated math & assumptions the Feds require in order to report pension funding.

 

(Why do the Feds mandate a certain pension formula? Because unscrupulous businesses could toss a dollar into the pension fund and assert that it was fully funded---based on an assumption that the dollar would earn a 10,000,000,000% return the first year. While it was never as bad as that, the assumptions that used to underlie 'fully funded' pensions were pretty bad at times).

 

Yes, and the regulations change every 10 months.....

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Please.

 

Spare me the recycled headlines. Maybe we should go back to the good ol' days, with dioxins spewing out of every factory chimney, glass IVs and hypodermics, lead paint, DDT, negligible wastewater treatment, formaldehyde belching out of Hemis, incredibly dangerous cars and tires, and rampant groundwater contamination.

 

You can isolate *any* statistic you want and make a big screeching deal about it. Try and have some perspective.

 

Gotta say l am not interested in the mortality rates Richard, my grand parents never got cancer but smoked like troopers but most died with a piece of lead between the ears in the 40's, 50's had rickets, 60's VD head lice, 70's dandruff were all going to freeze to death with global cooling the end is near, 80's yuppie flu, 90's AIDs will wipe the world out, 00's everybody we will all die be drowned under 20 feet of water global warming by the end of the decade doom, or bee's all dying out nobody will have any food & your all die young obesity epidemic, your all living longer pension schemes.

 

This post said the both GM & Ford have massive pension liabilities Richard, l was just pointing out the massive contrasts - health service tell you one thing and pension schemes tell you a complete different story, and thats what affects me "TODAY"!!

 

It is fair to say that the newspapers of today say one thing we have a massive obesity problem old bastards as well.

 

HEALTH SERVICE..

 

The Independent...

Parents might soon be outliving their children because of the rising level of obesity among youngsters who are eating high-calorie diets yet taking little exercise, a specialist in nutrition said yesterday.

 

The lifespan of seriously obese children can be shortened by several years. They succumb to potentially fatal disorders such as heart disease and type-2 diabetes.

 

Andrew Prentice, professor of international nutrition at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, told the British Association's Science Festival in Leicester that the prediction of rising obesity causing falling longevity among the present generation of children could easily come true.

 

About one in five Britons is clinically obese and about half are seriously overweight, but the proportion is rising among children and adolescents, mainly because of a sedentary lifestyle and a fast food diet.

 

LINK

 

BRITISH GOVERNMENTS VIEW (They will get to pick up the massive pensions bill most Brits don't have a pension, those that do its become worthless)

 

"WORK TILL YOU DROP RETIREMENT AGE"

 

People could have to work into their seventies under an overhaul of the pension system.

 

The Government will scrap the default retirement age which allows employers to get rid of staff when they reach the age of 65.

 

The state pension age for men is also set to rise to 66 from 2016 - nearly a decade earlier than the last Government had planned.

 

But Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith will also raise the possibility of extending the pension age to 70 and even further in the following decades as life expectancy increases

 

LINK

 

 

 

DEMOGRAPHIC TIME BOMB (Is a real problem)

 

In many countries, the crunch point is coming in the next few years, as the last big bulge of babies, born after the Second World War, reaches retirement age. Statisticians measure the "dependency ratio" - the number of people over 65 as a percentage of those aged 15-64. By 2030, this ratio will have increased to 33 in the US, 40 in the UK and 65 in Japan - from 19, 25 and 35 respectively in 2010, according to the United Nations.

 

Traditionally, families took care of their own. But in rich countries, the government is now the main pension provider. The greying of the population was always going to squeeze government budgets.

 

LINK

 

 

 

Nearly all British pension company schemes have been closed, we are paying a lot more in, getting reduced accrual rates, have to work another 5 years for huge reduction in pensions at the end.

 

We are being spun the big lie one after another we are all LIVING longer one minute, then were going to die young of OBESITY the next minute by the health service the truth is pension funds have paid Russian Roulette with your pensions on the stock market & property market that crashed through greedy banks, Gordon Browns taxed £200 billions out of British Company pension funds to prop up his bankrupt government make himself look vainly good, most companies had a huge the suns shining pension break holiday in 90's, now they want you to pay more to get less retire later because its all your fault you are living longer.

 

Some Brits will be OK though

 

BP chief executive Tony Hayward could walk away from the oil giant with a £10.8 million pension pot if he is ousted from his job (What happened to the living longer Pension rules here).

 

LINK

 

Some Brits won't be OK.

 

BP into £13.5bn fund for oil spill victims... but British pensioners will pick up the bill, to most Brits BP stands for "Bloody Poor".

 

LINK

 

 

 

Living longer its all our faults Mmmmm sure it is, and nothing to with stock markets and greedy banks at all, nobody has escaped death yet not even poor ole Michael Jackson in his oxygen tent 50 years was not a good age.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[weiweishen]

There's an article in this week's Automotive News which centers of Ford's and GM's focus on reducing debt. There were some surprising (to me, anyway) figures for GM debt contained in the article, thought I would share this info with you:

 

 

 

G M is talking with a number of banks about setting up a revolving line of credit that may be worth $5 billion or more. So GM debt will be up to 20 billion when they touch the credit.

[itguy09]

Well, as long as they stay off your lawn, what do you care? Flip flops? This is an overwhelming problem?

 

So we have a generation of people that think it's OK to inject ink into your skin all over the place in the name of "art" or "self expression". This same ink has never been studied for long term under the skin applications. Most of it comes from external cosmetic formulations never intended to live in our skin for 20-50-60 years.

 

Many of the shops that do it are less than sanitary and barely regulated by the towns and municipalities. If there is any type of sanitary practice there is limited training and no guarantee of a safe environment. Hepatitis, AIDS, etc are real dangers from the tattoo industry.

 

Piercings are generally safe as there is a new piece of jewlery and needle used but they are hideous.

 

Flip-Flops - sure. Walk a long while on a POS "sole" and you expose your feet to all sorts of nasty germs that are present on the ground. I think it was last year they did a study on the germs on the footbed of a flip flop and there was Staph, and quite a few other killer microorganisms present. Then there's the FACT that they lead to widening of the foot and other problems walking due to no support of the foot as you walk. Compound that with years of doing this and the foot, knees, etc take the brunt of this abuse and you have a recipe for disaster as you get older. It's also worse if you're 300lbs squishing a 1/4 inch of foam rubber worth $.001 as in the case of the flip flop.

 

It's going to be interesting watching my generation age - Dermatologists and Podiatrists are going to be making a killing. As will joint replacement companies.

Edited July 6, 2010 by itguy09

[NickF1011]

So we have a generation of people that think it's OK to inject ink into your skin all over the place in the name of "art" or "self expression". This same ink has never been studied for long term under the skin applications. Most of it comes from external cosmetic formulations never intended to live in our skin for 20-50-60 years.

 

Many of the shops that do it are less than sanitary and barely regulated by the towns and municipalities. If there is any type of sanitary practice there is limited training and no guarantee of a safe environment. Hepatitis, AIDS, etc are real dangers from the tattoo industry.

 

 

People have been getting tattoos for hundreds if not thousands of years. It's safer now than it has ever been.

[RichardJensen]

Staph, and quite a few other killer microorganisms present

Staph is a secondary infection. You have to be awful dang weak to get sick with a staph infection. If you're healthy your body will dispatch it quite quickly.

 

The issue with staph is that it's hardy--it has a long life span outside of host bodies, not that it's highly infectious.

 

The germophobia of this society amuses me. You've got people using paper towels and their feet to open bathroom doors---and then they'll stick their mouth right on a coffee lid--handled by who knows how many people with who knows how many different kinds of yuck on their fingers (especially gas station coffee lids).

 

I mean good grief. How did we ever survive without hand sanitizer (not universally effective on viruses), and studies telling us how much pee there is on bathroom door handles?

 

Sheesh. You'd think we have NO immune system whatsoever, to hear the germ hysteria from certain quarters. You'd think our bodies had no means of quickly dispatching dang near all the germs that enter it.

Edited July 6, 2010 by RichardJensen

[NickF1011]

Staph is a secondary infection. You have to be awful dang weak to get sick with a staph infection. If you're healthy your body will dispatch it quite quickly.

 

The issue with staph is that it's hardy--it has a long life span outside of host bodies, not that it's highly infectious.

 

The germophobia of this society amuses me. You've got people using paper towels and their feet to open bathroom doors---and then they'll stick their mouth right on a coffee lid--handled by who knows how many people with who knows how many different kinds of yuck on their fingers (especially gas station coffee lids).

 

I mean good grief. How did we ever survive without hand sanitizer (not universally effective on viruses), and studies telling us how much pee there is on bathroom door handles?

 

Sheesh. You'd think we have NO immune system whatsoever, to hear the germ hysteria from certain quarters. You'd think our bodies had no means of quickly dispatching dang near all the germs that enter it.

 

I found the Mythbusters episode on household germs to be pretty entertaining. There were fewer dangerous cultures on a typical public toilet seat than on a kitchen sponge. Eww. :lol:

[Mark B. Morrow]

 

It's going to be interesting watching my generation age - Dermatologists and Podiatrists are going to be making a killing. As will joint replacement companies.

 

I have a friend who is an Audiologist. She said the walkman/ipod was the best thing to ever happen to the hearing aid industry. They used to have to wait until people hit their 60's, now they will have customers in their 40's.

[NickF1011]

I have a friend who is an Audiologist. She said the walkman/ipod was the best thing to ever happen to the hearing aid industry. They used to have to wait until people hit their 60's, now they will have customers in their 40's.

 

 

:unsure: what?

[silvrsvt]

 

 

Flip-Flops - sure. Walk a long while on a POS "sole" and you expose your feet to all sorts of nasty germs that are present on the ground. I think it was last year they did a study on the germs on the footbed of a flip flop and there was Staph, and quite a few other killer microorganisms present. Then there's the FACT that they lead to widening of the foot and other problems walking due to no support of the foot as you walk. Compound that with years of doing this and the foot, knees, etc take the brunt of this abuse and you have a recipe for disaster as you get older. It's also worse if you're 300lbs squishing a 1/4 inch of foam rubber worth $.001 as in the case of the flip flop.

 

 

This makes me LOL...lets see..there is a movement out there to run barefoot or using as little protection (ie running shoes)

 

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-240-319--6728-0,00.html

 

This a-little-medicine-is-good-for-you perspective is shared by a number of other podiatrists, physical therapists, and coaches. Their theory: Modern man does spend too much time in shoes, and this weakens many of the foot and leg structures. To correct this, you can walk barefoot around the house, do simple foot strengthening exercises, or run a few barefoot miles a week on safe, secure surfaces.

So looks like your screwed either way....

PS I love my flip flops, but If I'm doing serious walking on pavement/concrete etc I wear running shoes

[RichardJensen]

I found the Mythbusters episode on household germs to be pretty entertaining. There were fewer dangerous cultures on a typical public toilet seat than on a kitchen sponge. Eww. :lol:

 

Sponges got two things working against them: lots of surface area and moisture. Moisture is a major reason for bacteria in bathrooms and kitchens.

 

Very very few bacteria & viruses can survive in a dry environment.

 

So make sure you dry those dishes!!

Edited July 6, 2010 by RichardJensen

[Extreme4x4]

Staph is a secondary infection. You have to be awful dang weak to get sick with a staph infection. If you're healthy your body will dispatch it quite quickly.

 

The issue with staph is that it's hardy--it has a long life span outside of host bodies, not that it's highly infectious.

 

The germophobia of this society amuses me. You've got people using paper towels and their feet to open bathroom doors---and then they'll stick their mouth right on a coffee lid--handled by who knows how many people with who knows how many different kinds of yuck on their fingers (especially gas station coffee lids).

 

I mean good grief. How did we ever survive without hand sanitizer (not universally effective on viruses), and studies telling us how much pee there is on bathroom door handles?

 

Sheesh. You'd think we have NO immune system whatsoever, to hear the germ hysteria from certain quarters. You'd think our bodies had no means of quickly dispatching dang near all the germs that enter it.

 

THIS !!!!

 

As a mother, I see a world of hurt coming in the future. We have an entire generation of kids, whose parents have never let their immune systems do anything. These same kids constantly have sniffles, are at the doctor, are needing meds, etc.

 

So many parents today practically dip their entire houses bleach, antibacterial everything, don't touch anything, can't play in the dirt because there are germs, don't touch anything in a bathroom, wash your hands 50 times a day, etc.

 

These same parents look at people like us, who aren't like this, like we are abusing our son. Yet, our son rarely to never gets sick, has rarely been to the doctor, is allergic to next to nothing, and is way TOO healthy. See, he ate alot of dirt when he was young, and has this great, healthy immune system. Even if he does get sick, it lasts one day, and it is done.

 

All the germophobic society has done, is build better germs.

 

Sorry, this is a big pet peeve of mine.

[Chester]

And here I thought we were talking about the economic health of GM. LOL Didn't realize GM referred to tattood Grand Mother.

 

What I don't like about the tattoos is not the long term health concerns. It's more todo with the long term skin sagging. What looks nice on a tight 20 year old body, looks pretty sad on a 50 year plus old grand mother.