2013 Lincoln MKT Gets Refined Version of Waterfall Grille

[BORG]

This statement presumes that the Town Car clientele were primarily concerned with its 'appeal' and 'sustainability'.

 

It would be closer to the truth to say that they valued space and durability. The MKT provides both.

 

The MKT is a superior limo package, without a doubt...but it's not selling and absolutely grotesque to look at and downright embarrassing to be seen in. It's an undisputed failure and will not be around long term. Who is going to invest into a fleet of vehicles that is undesirable and unlikely to survive the long haul? The XTS is here to stay, the MKT is not.

Edited October 4, 2011 by BORG

[silvrsvt]

The MKT is a superior limo package, without a doubt...but it's not selling and absolutely grotesque to look at and downright embarrassing to be seen in. It's an undisputed failure and will not be around long term. Who is going to invest into a fleet of vehicles that is undesirable and unlikely to survive the long haul? The XTS is here to stay, the MKT is not.

 

Are you seriously that stupid?

 

Guess you never head of the Taurus, Flex, Explorer, MKS, Police Interceptor and Police Utility that have about 85-90% parts commonalty with the MKT.

 

Do you really think people care what type of car picks them up to go to the airport? I hated going in a Town Car L, but hey it was much better then driving and paying for parking myself.

 

Yet again your just saying shit to tweek people around here...your only one step above a troll

[BORG]

Are you seriously that stupid?

 

Guess you never head of the Taurus, Flex, Explorer, MKS, Police Interceptor and Police Utility that have about 85-90% parts commonalty with the MKT.

 

Do you really think people care what type of car picks them up to go to the airport? I hated going in a Town Car L, but hey it was much better then driving and paying for parking myself.

 

Yet again your just saying shit to tweek people around here...your only one step above a troll

 

I'm not the one making personal attacks here.

 

The MKT represents a significant investment with an all original tophat, it's not a rebadged Flex, Taurus, MKS (all of which are also sales underachievers). Ford has spent allot of money on all of these products and they have not translated to sustainable or growing sales.

Edited October 4, 2011 by BORG

[2005Explorer]

I'm not the one making personal attacks here.

 

The MKT represents a significant investment with an all original tophat, it's not a rebadged Flex, Taurus, MKS (all of which are also sales underachievers). Ford has spent allot of money on all of these products and they have not translated to sustainable sales.

 

I agree. Platform sharing saves, however when looking at a vehicle that is completely unique like the MKT there has to be a lot of investment. The MKT shares 85-90% of it's parts with all other D3s? I don't believe that for a second. Every panel on the exterior is different. The interior is completely different. Now if you said that the MKZ or MKX share 85-90% of their parts with the Fusion or Edge I might believe you, but not on the MKT.

 

I'm sorry, but BORG is right. There is no way the MKT is paying for itself right now and I don't see a new grille turning this whale around. It needs substantial changes to make it attractive and in that case it is better to cancel and replace it with an attractive Explorer based CUV.

[akirby]

We won't really know how successful the MKT will be as a livery vehicle until the Town Car is gone (which just happened) and the new MKT with the new livery specific features is here.

 

I agree it hasn't been a retail success and needs a redesign but it's too early to predict the livery aspect.

[Anthony]

We won't really know how successful the MKT will be as a livery vehicle until the Town Car is gone (which just happened) and the new MKT with the new livery specific features is here.

 

I agree it hasn't been a retail success and needs a redesign but it's too early to predict the livery aspect.

 

Are the margins enough to survive on livery sales? These guys don't exactly buy the most expensive stuff on the market, they expect a discount.

 

I'm not talking about your local wedding limo guy, I'm referring to the black car fleets in the metropolitan area. Just because the (ancient) Town Car was able to provide a business case surviving on fleet sales all these years, does not mean the MKT necessarily can.

 

I'll be the first to admit, I don't know the answer to that question. Anyone?

[2005Explorer]

Are the margins enough to survive on livery sales? These guys don't exactly buy the most expensive stuff on the market, they expect a discount.

 

I'm not talking about your local wedding limo guy, I'm referring to the black car fleets in the metropolitan area. Just because the (ancient) Town Car was able to provide a business case surviving on fleet sales all these years, does not mean the MKT necessarily can.

 

I'll be the first to admit, I don't know the answer to that question. Anyone?

 

It is interesting to me that Ford has been focused on increasing retail sales and not fleet sales over the past couple of years with new model introductions, however the focus is on fleet for the MKT. Are they doing that just because they know that the MKT is so ugly it can't live on retail sales, however they don't want to admit defeat and cancel it? Maybe the MKT will kill the upcoming XTS and rule the livery market, but I'm not seeing it right now.

[Anthony]

It is interesting to me that Ford has been focused on increasing retail sales and not fleet sales over the past couple of years with new model introductions, however the focus is on fleet for the MKT. Are they doing that just because they know that the MKT is so ugly it can't live on retail sales, however they don't want to admit defeat and cancel it? Maybe the MKT will kill the upcoming XTS and rule the livery market, but I'm not seeing it right now.

 

Well, I think it has a lot to do with there is no real other suitable vehicle to replace the Town Car. The MKS may be the current top of the line Lincoln car, but the more inherent choice for people shuttling would naturally be the MKT.

[silvrsvt]

The MKT represents a significant investment with an all original tophat, it's not a rebadged Flex, Taurus, MKS (all of which are also sales underachievers). Ford has spent allot of money on all of these products and they have not translated to sustainable or growing sales.

 

No one outside of Ford truly knows the "numbers" if MKT is successful or not. Basing success on the numbers of units sold is downright stupid. I'm sure that Ford would like to sell more cars, but at the same time they aren't going to sell cars just to sell X amount in a year. That's how GM got in the spot it was and still is now.

 

Also comparing sales numbers from the past couple years from 10 years ago isn't possible either because the new car market has shrunk significantly.

 

 

[silvrsvt]

It is interesting to me that Ford has been focused on increasing retail sales and not fleet sales over the past couple of years with new model introductions, however the focus is on fleet for the MKT. Are they doing that just because they know that the MKT is so ugly it can't live on retail sales, however they don't want to admit defeat and cancel it? Maybe the MKT will kill the upcoming XTS and rule the livery market, but I'm not seeing it right now.

 

How big is the market really for a car like this? The MKT actually outsells its most of its competition (unless you want to call a Buick Enclave its competition...I think a Flex Titanium is a better match to it)

 

 

 

 

[akirby]

It is interesting to me that Ford has been focused on increasing retail sales and not fleet sales over the past couple of years with new model introductions, however the focus is on fleet for the MKT. Are they doing that just because they know that the MKT is so ugly it can't live on retail sales, however they don't want to admit defeat and cancel it? Maybe the MKT will kill the upcoming XTS and rule the livery market, but I'm not seeing it right now.

 

There is a difference between rental fleet sales and commercial/livery fleet sales. What Ford is no longer doing is fleet dumping - overproducing vehicles and selling them to rental fleets on the cheap. It can hurt retail sales. In this case the MKT sales are already low and it's the best fit for a livery vehicle in Ford's lineup. Look at what Ford is doing with the police vehicles. It can work if the market is big enough and it can be done with a shared platform.

 

They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't think it could be done profitably. And if it doesn't work they'll kill it. But to sit here and Saturday morning quarterback about whether something is a good idea or not before they ever try it is ridiculous.

[RichardJensen]

Ford has spent allot of money on all of these products and they have not translated to sustainable or growing sales.

OMG, Borg, would you just, for pete's sake, shut up.

 

You come on this board and repeatedly insist that you know more about how the auto industry works than people who have successfully rebuilt a car company, and you offer zero evidence to support your claims.

 

Seriously, why on EARTH should we accept statements like this? You don't know what's sustainable--you just flat out don't. You have zero basis for these statements, you have zero idea what Ford's amortized costs are in this platform (D3 was basically free--you know that right?), what Ford's future plans are for this platform, and what Ford's future plans are for these products, yet you expect us to take you seriously?

Edited October 4, 2011 by RichardJensen

[rmc523]

How big is the market really for a car like this? The MKT actually outsells its most of its competition (unless you want to call a Buick Enclave its competition...I think a Flex Titanium is a better match to it)

 

 

I just looked up figures for the Q7 and MB R-class (can't think of other competitors?):

 

- - - - Sept '11 - - Sept '10 - - - % - - - - - - YTD Sept 11 - - YTD Sept '10 - - - %

Q7 ----- 540...........673.........-19.8%............6,764..................5,173............30.8%

MKT --- 373...........526.........-29.1%............3,757..................5,701............-34.1%

R ------- 82.............292.........-71.9%............1,986..................2,206............-10.0%

 

 

So MKT is right in the middle. The market for a vehicle of its type is not that large to begin with.

 

 

 

References:

Audi sales - http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20111003-712120.html

Lincoln (Ford) sales - http://media.ford.com/images/10031/Sept11sales.pdf

MB sales - http://www.emercedesbenz.com/autos/mercedes-benz/corporate-news/mercedes-benz-usa-september-2011-sales-up-15-6-percent/82292-71.9%1,9862,206-10.0%82292-71.9%1,9862,206-10.0%

[ANTAUS]

Well to be fair, we can compare sales numbers of Lincoln vehicles to lets say Porsche or Rolls Royce, but I wouldn't say they are remotely in the same league. In fact, I'm not even sure I would classify the MKT as a 7 seater, 3rd row has headroom for midgets.

 

I remember the Blackwood sold barely 3300 copies before the plug was pulled 15 months after, and we have about 3 months left of the year so maybe the MarKeT will hit the 4000 mark. And then the successor Mark LT came in afterwards, and even if it's sold 10K copies, and the huge $10K+ discounts on it, must have still been gravy, now we call it F150 Platinum. The MKT I'm sure has had much more investment made on it to differentiate it from the Flex.

[akirby]

And then the successor Mark LT came in afterwards, and even if it's sold 10K copies, and the huge $10K+ discounts on it, must have still been gravy, now we call it F150 Platinum.

 

The Mark LT was perfectly successful at what it was intended for - to give Lincoln dealers something to sell after the LS was killed. It's not always about the numbers.

[ANTAUS]

Yes I'm sure the dealers appreciated the fact the Mark LT selling at 10K in '05 a year to 4K in '08, was good enough to make up for the sales of the LS at 57K in 2001, to 19K in '05... :rolleyes:

[BORG]

OMG, Borg, would you just, for pete's sake, shut up.

 

You come on this board and repeatedly insist that you know more about how the auto industry works than people who have successfully rebuilt a car company, and you offer zero evidence to support your claims.

 

Seriously, why on EARTH should we accept statements like this? You don't know what's sustainable--you just flat out don't. You have zero basis for these statements, you have zero idea what Ford's amortized costs are in this platform (D3 was basically free--you know that right?), what Ford's future plans are for this platform, and what Ford's future plans are for these products, yet you expect us to take you seriously?

 

Richard, so you're telling me that because Ford is doing things cheaply; low or decreasing sales are irrelevant and I should not be in judgement over Ford's ability to target customers effectively. Got it!

[silvrsvt]

Richard, so you're telling me that because Ford is doing things cheaply; low or decreasing sales are irrelevant and I should not be in judgement over Ford's ability to target customers effectively. Got it!

 

Spending lots of money (ala the CTS) isn't a effective way of doing business either.

 

The current Lincoln products are just stop holders till new products come out.

 

Just look at this way, when the 2008 Focus came out, could you really believe that Ford could do something as good as the 2012 Focus?

 

If sales are still this low 5-6 years down the road, you might have a leg to stand on.

 

 

 

 

[BORG]

Spending lots of money (ala the CTS) isn't a effective way of doing business either.

 

The current Lincoln products are just stop holders till new products come out.

 

Just look at this way, when the 2008 Focus came out, could you really believe that Ford could do something as good as the 2012 Focus?

 

If sales are still this low 5-6 years down the road, you might have a leg to stand on.

 

There is nothing stop-gap about the current Lincolns...the MKS and MKT are full-fledged Lincoln products with unique power plants, tophats, interiors, features, etc...they are stellar products and they haven't been able to hold sales. The MKZ is just old, as is the Fusion...I mean they are REALLY old products that defy the industry norm...the new Fusion and MKZ have a similar relationship going forward. The MKX is an aberration, it started life as a Lincoln RX and Ford got a version...I always see the relationship that way instead of the other way around, it's a great product for Ford to have because it's fundamentally a luxury-grade product.

Edited October 5, 2011 by BORG

[silvrsvt]

There is nothing stop-gap about the current Lincolns...the MKS and MKT are full-fledged Lincoln products with unique power plants, tophats, interiors, features, etc...they are stellar products and they haven't been able to hold sales.

 

The market for a 40-50K 7 Passenger CUV isn't that large...the MKT hasn't had large sales to start with

 

The MKS came out back in 2008...and hasn't had ANY updates besides getting the Ecoboost engine in it

 

The MKX is an aberration, it started life as a Lincoln RX and Ford got a version...I always see the relationship that way instead of the other way around, it's a great product for Ford to have because it's fundamentally a luxury-grade product.

 

I think you have selective memory here....the Aviator concept came out before the Edge and MKX did....Ford didn't have a concept for the Edge (as far as I know)...your fooling yourself if you think that the Edge is just a "cheapened" up MKX...the Edge and MKX have always been joined at the hip.

 

[akirby]

Yes I'm sure the dealers appreciated the fact the Mark LT selling at 10K in '05 a year to 4K in '08, was good enough to make up for the sales of the LS at 57K in 2001, to 19K in '05... :rolleyes:

 

The MKZ was supposed to replace the LS but the LS died before it was ready - that's why we got the rushed out the door Zephyr first. So it wasn't a case of LS vs. Mark LT - it was a case of "the LS is gone because it's losing money" so now what do we do? It was poor product planning that put them in that position but once you're in that position, adding the Mark LT was a no-brainer. Every one that they sold was a net increase and a net profit for the dealership, regardless of Ford's bottom line.

 

To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

 

 

To BORG:

 

And to suggest that the MKS and MKT represent the future of Lincoln is so ridiculous it's laughable. The MKT styling is awful but the interior was a big step forward. The MKX still shares doors and a side profile with the Edge and that hurts. The MKS was already "in the can" when Mulally took over. We won't know what it will be until they redo it on CD4 which has to wait.

 

Apparently you've made up your mind about the Fusion and MKZ based strictly on heavily camouflaged spy shots of "some" car. Can't you just wait until we see everything to make those kinds of snap judgements?

 

Do you not grasp the huge effort that Ford is putting into Lincoln now? Killing Mercury; dedicated design team; 100+ staff dedicated to transforming the entire Lincoln experience. As long as the MKZ is as stunning as predicted I say it's a recipe for success.

Edited October 5, 2011 by akirby

[ANTAUS]

The MKZ was supposed to replace the LS but the LS died before it was ready - that's why we got the rushed out the door Zephyr first. So it wasn't a case of LS vs. Mark LT - it was a case of "the LS is gone because it's losing money" so now what do we do? It was poor product planning that put them in that position but once you're in that position, adding the Mark LT was a no-brainer. Every one that they sold was a net increase and a net profit for the dealership, regardless of Ford's bottom line.

 

To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

 

And to suggest that the MKS and MKT represent the future of Lincoln is so ridiculous it's laughable. The MKT styling is awful but the interior was a big step forward. The MKX still shares doors and a side profile with the Edge and that hurts. The MKS was already "in the can" when Mulally took over. We won't know what it will be until they redo it on CD4 which has to wait.

 

Apparently you've made up your mind about the Fusion and MKZ based strictly on heavily camouflaged spy shots of "some" car. Can't you just wait until we see everything to make those kinds of snap judgements?

 

Do you not grasp the huge effort that Ford is putting into Lincoln now? Killing Mercury; dedicated design team; 100+ staff dedicated to transforming the entire Lincoln experience. As long as the MKZ is as stunning as predicted I say it's a recipe for success.

 

A) I never stated anything to suggest "And to suggest that the MKS and MKT represent the future of Lincoln is so ridiculous it's laughable" or even remotely have engaged in that conversation.

B) I already knew the MKS was penned before Mulally.

C) I havent made any judgments on the Fusion and MKZ resemblance, nor have even discussed that topic on here much.

D) Yes I have grasped about the huge effort that Ford has finally placed into Lincoln, and I didnt even bring that up either?!!

E) Are you adding liquor to your morning coffee??

[akirby]

A) I never stated anything to suggest "And to suggest that the MKS and MKT represent the future of Lincoln is so ridiculous it's laughable" or even remotely have engaged in that conversation.

B) I already knew the MKS was penned before Mulally.

C) I havent made any judgments on the Fusion and MKZ resemblance, nor have even discussed that topic on here much.

D) Yes I have grasped about the huge effort that Ford has finally placed into Lincoln, and I didnt even bring that up either?!!

E) Are you adding liquor to your morning coffee??

 

Sorry, the last part was directed at Borg, not you. I fixed it.

[rmc523]

There is nothing stop-gap about the current Lincolns...the MKS and MKT are full-fledged Lincoln products with unique power plants, tophats, interiors, features, etc...they are stellar products and they haven't been able to hold sales. The MKZ is just old, as is the Fusion...I mean they are REALLY old products that defy the industry norm...the new Fusion and MKZ have a similar relationship going forward. The MKX is an aberration, it started life as a Lincoln RX and Ford got a version...I always see the relationship that way instead of the other way around, it's a great product for Ford to have because it's fundamentally a luxury-grade product.

 

 

So a vehicle (MKS) that dates back to its 2006 concept represents a "full-fledged" Lincoln complete with the new focus and resources put into it?

 

I could give you MKT as a full fledged example of a current Lincoln product, but it is not necessarily representative of the extent to which Lincoln will go differentiation-wise in all ways. We just have to wait and see - as has been said before, the new MKZ will be representative of this new effort - and actually, thinking about it, even then I'm not sure we could say MKZ is fully representative of the new effort, as Max Wolff got his hands on it late in the process.

[Captainp4]

^My thought as well, not even the MKZ is going to fully show where Lincoln is going just yet because it was already well under way when the new team was brought on, from what I understand.. MKS/MKT are getting the best that can be done with them right now.

 

 

So, Maybe MKX or MKEscape will be full representation of the new vision for Lincoln. With all the press releases saying how much they're doing and then stop gaps rolling out I can see how it is hard to be patient, I want to see where they're going right now too, but we have to wait!!