twintornados Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 What if the "upgraded" 5.8L is simply a version of the 6.2L with a shorter stroke or smaller bore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) 5.8 "Condor" is a special engine run for Shelby, it is a big bore 5.4. Edited October 7, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Project-Fairmont Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 (edited) Same tech used in the 5.0 Coyote. Tall Deck modular achvieing a larger bore via aluminum block with spray liners, with compact 4v head. The bore spacing and essential bottom end remains; forged crank with 6-bolt mains. Add one Eaton TVS blower http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/ProductsbyCategory/Automotive/AutomotiveAftermarket/Superchargers/PCT_221787 , and this should be stout and 600 ft lb torque monster! Why not the 6.2...I ask why? The narrow bore Modular is well developed, lighter and since the the 5.8 is a variation on the excellent and mass quantity 5.0 Coyote, much better bang for the buck (profits!) performance motor than an un-developed 6.2. Bear in mind this is very narrow market niche motor...that will also happen to be Fords greatest HiPo achievement to date! Edited October 7, 2011 by Project-Fairmont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atvman Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Let's just see if they can get it to launch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 The existing S/C 5.4 line was set up for for the GT 500, it has gone from Iron block to alloy block and now increases in capacity to 5.8. That is why it is not a variation of 6.2 boss, it is simply a progressive development of the existing mod motor, nothing more, nothing less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosetang Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 What if the "upgraded" 5.8L is simply a version of the 6.2L with a shorter stroke or smaller bore? I doubt it, that would be a pretty heavy mill taking up a lot of space compared to the other options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcman Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 There is already a stroker kit that brings the 5.0L to a 5.8L. Without resleeving it there' no way you'd get a Coyote out to 5.8 which something that Wiseco is looking at doing. Maximum stroker kit, theoretically, is 5.4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcman Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Nah, look out for more cubes (than what the GT500 currently has). A famous number, too. Scratched my head on this one, but I'm assuming your talking about a tall deck 5.0 Coyote that would make it a 5.8L or a 351 Cubic inches? lol, not that famous. http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40789-fpv-launches-coyote-v8-as-miami/page__st__20 Hey silvrsvt., I had to through you off the scent back then as you guessed what it was. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Same tech used in the 5.0 Coyote. Tall Deck modular achvieing a larger bore via aluminum block with spray liners, with compact 4v head. The bore spacing and essential bottom end remains; forged crank with 6-bolt mains. Add one Eaton TVS blower http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/ProductsbyCategory/Automotive/AutomotiveAftermarket/Superchargers/PCT_221787 , and this should be stout and 600 ft lb torque monster! Say what? The 5.0L Coyote does not use spray bore liners. The Cammer 5.0L did but that was just a larger bore 4.6L and not a regular production engine. Although they may have the same displacement the Coyote and Cammer are two entirely different engines that share bore centers and not much else. The 5.8L will be nothing more than a larger bore variant of the 5.4L currently in the GT500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procyon Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Say what? The 5.0L Coyote does not use spray bore liners. The Cammer 5.0L did but that was just a larger bore 4.6L and not a regular production engine. Although they may have the same displacement the Coyote and Cammer are two entirely different engines that share bore centers and not much else. The 5.8L will be nothing more than a larger bore variant of the 5.4L currently in the GT500. 5.0L Cammer did not have spray bore. It did have special press-in liners to allow the larger bore in the old 4.6L alum block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stangfvr Posted October 10, 2011 Share Posted October 10, 2011 Guess this explains why the dealers are dropping prices on the 2012 gt500. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 5.0L Cammer did not have spray bore. It did have special press-in liners to allow the larger bore in the old 4.6L alum block. Whatever. Ford did at least experiment with a racing only version of the short stroke mod motor that used spray bore liners. It may or may not have been called the Cammer but the fact of the matter is that the GT500 5.8L will have little or nothing to do with the Coyote 5.0L For me the more interesting questions are why didn't Ford use the PTWA process on the Coyote and when are they planning to start using the process on more mainstream products than the GT500? Is it simply too expensive? I have not heard of any reliability issues with the 2011/12 GT500 related to the cylinder block. Guess this explains why the dealers are dropping prices on the 2012 gt500. I doubt most people who might be interested in a GT500 are aware of the change to 5.8L for 2013. Even less likely that most dealers are aware of it. Price reductions are probably more related to slow sales due to the crapping economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 http://www.blueovalf...mi/page__st__20 Hey silvrsvt., I had to through you off the scent back then as you guessed what it was. Cheers. hahaha I totally forgot about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atvman Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I doubt most people who might be interested in a GT500 are aware of the change to 5.8L for 2013. Even less likely that most dealers are aware of it. Price reductions are probably more related to slow sales due to the crapping economy. It's also plausible that the Boss 302 has hurt Shelby demand, which helps justify going to a new engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Whatever. Ford did at least experiment with a racing only version of the short stroke mod motor that used spray bore liners. It may or may not have been called the Cammer but the fact of the matter is that the GT500 5.8L will have little or nothing to do with the Coyote 5.0L For me the more interesting questions are why didn't Ford use the PTWA process on the Coyote and when are they planning to start using the process on more mainstream products than the GT500? Is it simply too expensive? I have not heard of any reliability issues with the 2011/12 GT500 related to the cylinder block. I doubt most people who might be interested in a GT500 are aware of the change to 5.8L for 2013. Even less likely that most dealers are aware of it. Price reductions are probably more related to slow sales due to the crapping economy. Where are you getting this? As far as I can tell the 5.8 will be related to the 5.0 in the same ways the 5.4 was related to the 4.6. I'd guess they'll share the same heads and obviously share the same bore spacing, the only difference being deck height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 (edited) Where are you getting this? As far as I can tell the 5.8 will be related to the 5.0 in the same ways the 5.4 was related to the 4.6. I'd guess they'll share the same heads and obviously share the same bore spacing, the only difference being deck height. No, 5.8 is merely a large bore version of existing alloy block 5.4, it's a progression on an existing production line for one customer, Shelby. The bores on the updated 5.8 block are larger than the new 5.0 Coyote. Most of the existing Mod tooling remains for that small line.. Edited October 13, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercury Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 No, 5.8 is merely a large bore version of existing alloy block 5.4, it's a progression on an existing production line for one customer, Shelby. The bores on the updated 5.8 block are larger than the new 5.0 Coyote. Most of the existing Mod tooling remains for that small line.. The bore on the 5.4L alloy block is the same diameter as any vanilla 5.4,which is the same as the bore size as the 4.6L. A 5.4 block with the Coyote bore size is 5.8L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) No, 5.8 is merely a large bore version of existing alloy block 5.4, it's a progression on an existing production line for one customer, Shelby. The bores on the updated 5.8 block are larger than the new 5.0 Coyote. Most of the existing Mod tooling remains for that small line.. How do you figure the bores are larger than the 5.0? The 5.0 is merely a larger bore 4.6. The coyote block is different than the 4.6 in many other ways, but, again AFAIK, shares the same bore spacing and deck height. Why wouldn't they use the coyote heads on the 5.8? I don't think there is any room to go larger than the 5.0's bore on the mod line. 5.0/4.6=x/5.4 solve for x and you get ~5.8 (5.8695... close to 5.9, but I'd guess if you run the actual numbers it'd be closer to 5.8) The stroke on the 5.4 is already pretty damn huge, largest from any Ford motor, which makes for some pretty insane piston speed numbers when you start getting up to 6k rpm. Also makes for big tq numbers. Now, if the coyote 5.0 is a combination of increased bore and stroke on a block that is similar to the 4.6 in dimensions I could see where the 5.4's bore would need to be larger than the 5.0's, because I think they're about at the limit for stroke. But, from what I remember then the coyote was released it is only an increase in bore over the 4.6. What would be really awesome is a v10 based on either the coyote or this new 5.8 if it is in fact a tall deck coyote - could have eliminated the need for the BOSS motor all together, imagine GTTDi (EB) on any of these motors! Edited October 14, 2011 by Captainp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) How do you figure the bores are larger than the 5.0? The 5.0 is merely a larger bore 4.6. The coyote block is different than the 4.6 in many other ways, but, again AFAIK, shares the same bore spacing and deck height. Why wouldn't they use the coyote heads on the 5.8? I don't think there is any room to go larger than the 5.0's bore on the mod line. It is an evolutionary change to an existing Mod motor, not a tall deck Coyote. It's a specific engine line called 'Condor" that was set up for GT 500, it started with iron block S/C 5.4, the engine then graduated to alloy block 5.4 and will now graduate to large bore 5.8 courtesy of spray welding technique, the bore is 3.75" combined with 4.16" stroke. All of this gives increased displacement while allowing maximum parts carry over with Mod heads, inlet manifold and blower assembly. Edited October 14, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) 5.0/4.6=x/5.4 solve for x and you get ~5.8 (5.8695... close to 5.9, but I'd guess if you run the actual numbers it'd be closer to 5.8) The bore on the 5.4L alloy block is the same diameter as any vanilla 5.4,which is the same as the bore size as the 4.6L. A 5.4 block with the Coyote bore size is 5.8L. Sigh, Coyote received an increase in bore and stroke over the 4.6, The 4.6 bore / stroke is 3.55" x 3.55" while Coyote is 3.63" x 3.65" To go from 5.4 to 5.8 while retaining the 4.16 stroke, you need to increase bore from 3.55 to 3.75. Edited October 14, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atvman Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 It is an evolutionary change to an existing Mod motor, not a tall deck Coyote. It's a specific engine line called 'Condor" that was set up for GT 500, it started with iron block S/C 5.4, the engine then graduated to alloy block 5.4 and will now graduate to large bore 5.8 courtesy of spray welding technique, the bore is 3.75" combined with 4.16" stroke. All of this gives increased displacement while allowing maximum parts carry over with Mod heads, inlet manifold and blower assembly. Why would they use mod heads though? It can't be too much work to make the Coyote heads fit on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atvman Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Sigh, Coyote received an increase in bore and stroke over the 4.6, The 4.6 bore / stroke is 3.55" x 3.55" while Coyote is 3.63" x 3.65" To go from 5.4 to 5.8 while retaining the 4.16 stroke, you need to increase bore from 3.55 to 3.75. The Coyote is like a Gen II Modular. There are a lot of similarities between the 5.0L and 4.6L and a lot of differences as well. I don't see why the 5.8L would relate to the 5.4L any differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) Do you have an actual source for this info jpd? If you do then by all means I'll admit I'm wrong, it just doesn't make much sense to me to do it that way when the coyote is obviously a superior head design. Also, I was under the impression that the coyote was only an increase in BORE over the 4.6, not stroke as well. I'd be interested in reading more about that as well if you happen to have a link to some info on it. Edited October 14, 2011 by Captainp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 The coyote uses different coolant and oil flow patterns than the old modulars. The heads use the same bolt pattern as part of the "must use the old machining tools" requirement, and they could bolt to a modular block, but the coolant and oil passages wouldn't match up. They may tweak the GT500 heads for better flow, but I doubt we will see any dramatic changes to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97svtgoin05gt Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 That plant is to receive $50M in updates of which this new 5.8L engine will be part of. I don't understand what's costing 50 large if this is just a very minor tweak to the current production of this engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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