Avon Lake Medium Duty

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Doesn't Ford still produce the 3V 6.8L V-10 for large gas applications? From what I can remember, didn't it compare favorably with the big 8.0L GM V8?

 

I know Wikipedia isn't the greatest source, but, it lists the 2V as still available in the Econolines and has the following entry for the 3V:

2012 Ford F-650 & Ford F-750, 3-valve SOHC, 362 hp (270 kW) and 457 lb·ft (620 N·m).

 

Which compares to the GM 8.0L (wikipedia says The last L18 was manufactured in December 2009)

Power output ranges from 325 hp (242 kW) to 550 hp (410 kW) and torque from 455 lb·ft (617 N·m) to 690 lb·ft (936 N·m).

 

So, I'm at a loss to explain where the 8.0L GM engines are coming from or what Ford is going to use to compete with them with if the 6.8L goes away at the end of the 2012 650-750. The 2V may be reliable, but, at 310 hp and just over 400 lbs of torque, it's not going to impress anyone on output specs.

 

If only Ford had some sort of smallish Diesel engine, say in the 4 to 5 liter range, that produced about 250-300 HP and over 450 lbs of torque. Say in a compact v-6 arrangement or something like that. That might be really attractive to a lot of people...

Edited July 19, 2012 by old_fairmont_wagon

[7Mary3]

The 8.0L is a new engine, in some was more closely related to the older 7.4L (454) big block Chevy than the 8.1L. From what I have seen, it looks to be a very heavy duty engine (lots of forged and billet parts, iron heads, high grade valves and seats, oil cooled pistons). Origin Engines is marketing it as an industrial engine, Powertrain Integration is marketing it for on-highway applications. There is also a 10.3L version.

 

I don't know what the story is with the Ford 6.2L. It was my understanding that is was supposed to replace the 6.8L V-10, but as of yet we can see that it hasn't. No idea if the reason had something to do with durability concerns or if it was never intended for medium duty truck service. I was told that it could be enlarged to better than 7.0L, but I have also heard that would require a redesigned block. Not sure what the actual facts are.

[theoldwizard]

IMHO, the future of vocational medium duties belongs to CNG ! Any truck that "comes back to the barn" every night will eventually switch to CNG once the company/governmnet bean counties pull their heads out of the butts and install the pumping equipment.

 

The problem is gasoline engines convert to CNG operations are way down on power compared to diesel or diesel/CNG engine. Of course a spark ignited engine CNG enigine is much cheaper than either a diesel or a CNG/diesel engine, but power is important when hauling heavy loads (dump trucks, garbage trucks, etc.)

 

To my knowledge, no one is making a purely CNG spark ignited engine that would have adequate power to compete with diesels in Class 6 and 7.

[theoldwizard]

I don't know what the story is with the Ford 6.2L. It was my understanding that is was supposed to replace the 6.8L V-10, but as of yet we can see that it hasn't. No idea if the reason had something to do with durability concerns or if it was never intended for medium duty truck service.

The only thing I have heard was the 6.2L could not pass the over 14k durability test. It is a dyno test, that requires the engine to run near full power for an extended period of time.

 

When the 6.2L was in development, there were a few people who wanted a 3V head. Much cheaper than a 4V and better flow than a 2V. I guess it still could happen, but fixing cooling problems could mean a new/upgraded block.

[LSchicago]

Doesn't Ford still produce the 3V 6.8L V-10 for large gas applications? From what I can remember, didn't it compare favorably with the big 8.0L GM V8?

 

I know Wikipedia isn't the greatest source, but, it lists the 2V as still available in the Econolines and has the following entry for the 3V:

2012 Ford F-650 & Ford F-750, 3-valve SOHC, 362 hp (270 kW) and 457 lb·ft (620 N·m).

 

Which compares to the GM 8.0L (wikipedia says The last L18 was manufactured in December 2009)

Power output ranges from 325 hp (242 kW) to 550 hp (410 kW) and torque from 455 lb·ft (617 N·m) to 690 lb·ft (936 N·m).

 

So, I'm at a loss to explain where the 8.0L GM engines are coming from or what Ford is going to use to compete with them with if the 6.8L goes away at the end of the 2012 650-750. The 2V may be reliable, but, at 310 hp and just over 400 lbs of torque, it's not going to impress anyone on output specs.

 

If only Ford had some sort of smallish Diesel engine, say in the 4 to 5 liter range, that produced about 250-300 HP and over 450 lbs of torque. Say in a compact v-6 arrangement or something like that. That might be really attractive to a lot of people...

 

The 3V V10 is still available in the 450/550 trucks too! BTW, I fixed Wikipedia to the correct info on this.

Edited July 21, 2012 by LSchicago

[7Mary3]

IMHO, the future of vocational medium duties belongs to CNG ! Any truck that "comes back to the barn" every night will eventually switch to CNG once the company/governmnet bean counties pull their heads out of the butts and install the pumping equipment.

 

The problem is gasoline engines convert to CNG operations are way down on power compared to diesel or diesel/CNG engine. Of course a spark ignited engine CNG enigine is much cheaper than either a diesel or a CNG/diesel engine, but power is important when hauling heavy loads (dump trucks, garbage trucks, etc.)

 

To my knowledge, no one is making a purely CNG spark ignited engine that would have adequate power to compete with diesels in Class 6 and 7.

 

I would have to disagree with that to a certain extent. The thing is gasoline engines converted to 'dual fuel' (gasoline and CNG/LNG) operation are down on power when operating on gaseous fuel because timing and compression ratios are compromised to allow for operation on gasoline. I have seen some prototype engines that were based on gasoline engines but were dedicated gaseous fuel, and they performed very well. Essentially, that is what Westport does to Cummins diesels. Since they are dedicated engines, they are optimized for gaseous fuel, and perform well. The silly thing about Westport/Cummins engines is that since they are essentially designed for compression ignition, the reciprocating assembly and blocks are far heavier than they really need to be. And we all know that is wasteful and inefficient. I think in the future we will be seeing engines that are designed 'from the ground up' for CNG/LNG, and they will be the most efficient of all. And, I believe that they will more closely resemble large gasoline designs than diesels. Maybe it is time to ressurect the Ford 534, IH 549, and GMC 637 V-8's. Or the Hall-Scott 1091 for that matter!

[theoldwizard]

I would have to disagree with that to a certain extent. The thing is gasoline engines converted to 'dual fuel' (gasoline and CNG/LNG) operation are down on power when operating on gaseous fuel because timing and compression ratios are compromised to allow for operation on gasoline. I have seen some prototype engines that were based on gasoline engines but were dedicated gaseous fuel, and they performed very well.

And that is exactly the point I was trying to make !

 

A gaseous fuel only engine will make more power (because both LP and CNG have higher octane than preium gasoline) and therefore be closer to the power output of diesel or diesel/CNG engines. It will be cheaper to build a CNG truck "on the line" or at least haul partial build over to a vendor for completion.

 

IHMO, LNG is so costly, I don't think it will ever become a significant part of the Class 8 business.

[Edstock]

With the power and economy issues caused by the latest diesel pollution regs, maybe Ford could try a gasoline EcoBoost 6.2 with the alcohol injection system they developed and EB2 water-cooled manifolds. It might be competitive with class 8 diesels, but cost less.

[lfeg]

I would have to disagree with that to a certain extent. The thing is gasoline engines converted to 'dual fuel' (gasoline and CNG/LNG) operation are down on power when operating on gaseous fuel because timing and compression ratios are compromised to allow for operation on gasoline. I have seen some prototype engines that were based on gasoline engines but were dedicated gaseous fuel, and they performed very well. Essentially, that is what Westport does to Cummins diesels. Since they are dedicated engines, they are optimized for gaseous fuel, and perform well. The silly thing about Westport/Cummins engines is that since they are essentially designed for compression ignition, the reciprocating assembly and blocks are far heavier than they really need to be. And we all know that is wasteful and inefficient. I think in the future we will be seeing engines that are designed 'from the ground up' for CNG/LNG, and they will be the most efficient of all. And, I believe that they will more closely resemble large gasoline designs than diesels. Maybe it is time to ressurect the Ford 534, IH 549, and GMC 637 V-8's. Or the Hall-Scott 1091 for that matter!

 

Yes. With the coming of CNG for a fleet fuel (and with the installation of CNG dispensing equipment at truck stops on major corridors) I do see purpose designed CNG spark ignition engines. The old Ford Super Duty engine block and rotating assembly would be a good baseline (strong block, bearings, and crank, good cooling). With modern design heads, valve gear, and possibly supercharging / turbocharging you could have a very reliable and fairly efficient medium to light heavy engine in the 240 to 320 hp class.

Edited July 23, 2012 by lfeg

[theoldwizard]

With the power and economy issues caused by the latest diesel pollution regs, maybe Ford could try a gasoline EcoBoost 6.2 with the alcohol injection system they developed and EB2 water-cooled manifolds. It might be competitive with class 8 diesels, but cost less.

 

Sigh. You don't get it ! In vocational trucks, it is all about “total cost of ownership”. Cheap initial cost cheap maintenance and most importantly cheap operating costs.

 

CNG is a big win because the cost of operation (i.e. fuel) is SO much cheaper ! Sure EcoBoost and alcohol injection will get the power up (remember, CGI was recommend for the block at significant cost increase) but they don't help with fuel cost.

 

Maybe turbocharging is a better solution of a gaseous fuel spark ignited engine than just higher static compression, but I doubt it.

[theoldwizard]

Yes. With the coming of CNG for a fleet fuel (and with the installation of CNG dispensing equipment at truck stops on major corridors) I do see purpose designed CNG spark ignition engines.

It will take a LOOOONG time before there will be enough CNG/LNG filling station on America's highways before long haul trucks (which are mostly Class 8) will be switching.

 

Vocationals can either fill up "in the yard" or at a local CNG pumping station.

The old Ford Super Duty engine block and rotating assembly would be a good baseline (strong block, bearings, and crank, good cooling). With modern design heads, valve gear, and possibly supercharging / turbocharging you could have a very reliable and fairly efficient medium to light heavy engine in the 240 to 320 hp class.

If that tooling is still exists !

[Bob Rosadini]

It will take a LOOOONG time before there will be enough CNG/LNG filling station on America's highways before long haul trucks (which are mostly Class 8) will be switching.

 

Vocationals can either fill up "in the yard" or at a local CNG pumping station.

 

If that tooling is still exists !

Agreed on long haul-but as I've said many times-double stack rail when it finally arrives (that is when the bridge obstacles are corrected in all the major rail corridors-in particular in the Northeast), long haul trucking is going to take on a different look A big need will exist for short haul heavy tractors that will run the short miles from intermodal yards to distribution centers and carrier terminals for breakdown to local delivery. You are probably correct as far as the Super duty tooling goes. But I was at the ATHS truck show at Owl's Head Maine this weekend and some of us were talking about just what a 534 might do if it had today's technology applied to it. The Super Duty was a rugged gas engine with great low end torque Granted the 460 tooling probably still exists but if my memory serves me right, the specs on the 401-477-534 were a lot better. And the same could probably be said for the big International V-8s as well as the big GM's

 

Again, we are not talking about something that is going to pull 80,000 over the Rockies. We are talking about moving 80,000 pds a couple of hundred miles.

[lfeg]

It will take a LOOOONG time before there will be enough CNG/LNG filling station on America's highways before long haul trucks (which are mostly Class 8) will be switching.

 

Vocationals can either fill up "in the yard" or at a local CNG pumping station.

 

If that tooling is still exists !

 

The tooling is probably long gone. But the drawings should still exist in one form or another. Again, the block and rotating assembly would be a baseline - a starting point for a new design. The casting and machining technologies have advanced much since the mid 50s when the Super Duty engines were designed. But a robust block and rotating assembly design gives you a pretty good starting point.

[lfeg]

Agreed on long haul-but as I've said many times-double stack rail when it finally arrives (that is when the bridge obstacles are corrected in all the major rail corridors-in particular in the Northeast), long haul trucking is going to take on a different look A big need will exist for short haul heavy tractors that will run the short miles from intermodal yards to distribution centers and carrier terminals for breakdown to local delivery. You are probably correct as far as the Super duty tooling goes. But I was at the ATHS truck show at Owl's Head Maine this weekend and some of us were talking about just what a 534 might do if it had today's technology applied to it. The Super Duty was a rugged gas engine with great low end torque Granted the 460 tooling probably still exists but if my memory serves me right, the specs on the 401-477-534 were a lot better. And the same could probably be said for the big International V-8s as well as the big GM's

 

Again, we are not talking about something that is going to pull 80,000 over the Rockies. We are talking about moving 80,000 pds a couple of hundred miles.

 

Agree. When you look at the class 7 and class 8 trucks used in short haul, delivery and pickup, and even refuse and recycled materials collection, you are looking at a number of trucks that exceed long haul class 8 quantities. I used to work next to a Roadway terminal. They had about four tractors used for local delivery / pickup, runs to nearby terminals, etc. for every longhaul tractor. And the tractors used for that purpose were back at the terminal by about 8 every evening. and they would start leaving the terminal about 7 in the morning. Part of it was probably just about every longhaul that left that terminal was a double. And I am not including dumps, local bulk carriers, construction fleets, and beverage delivery fleets.

[7Mary3]

Bob, I think some of the truck manufacturers are starting to take notice of the growing market for short-haul class 8 tractors for intermodal work. Western Star's new 4700 was introduced last year as a vocational truck, but now they are offering a 13L Detroit powered, set forward front axle, tandem daycab tractor application aimed squarely at intermodal.

 

Two years ago rumor was Ford was considering a higher powered tandem axle 'F-850', but the idea didn't go anywhere. Will anything like that come out of Avon Lake?

[Joe771476]

Went by a place in Glastonbury CT. Bemer's Petroleum. He has an amazing collection of around 12 FIRST generation L-series! There are also about 4 or 5 newer Internationals which you KNOW would have been Fords if Ford hadn't given the biz away!

[Mark B. Morrow]

Agreed on long haul-but as I've said many times-double stack rail when it finally arrives (that is when the bridge obstacles are corrected in all the major rail corridors-in particular in the Northeast), long haul trucking is going to take on a different look A big need will exist for short haul heavy tractors that will run the short miles from intermodal yards to distribution centers and carrier terminals for breakdown to local delivery. You are probably correct as far as the Super duty tooling goes. But I was at the ATHS truck show at Owl's Head Maine this weekend and some of us were talking about just what a 534 might do if it had today's technology applied to it. The Super Duty was a rugged gas engine with great low end torque Granted the 460 tooling probably still exists but if my memory serves me right, the specs on the 401-477-534 were a lot better. And the same could probably be said for the big International V-8s as well as the big GM's

 

Again, we are not talking about something that is going to pull 80,000 over the Rockies. We are talking about moving 80,000 pds a couple of hundred miles.

 

Beautiful Truck. Is that a '68? I'm guessing based on the reflector on the hood. I remember those N-T Series trucks from my childhood when they were everywhere. I still see a few in service.

 

Interesting side note: Pontiac bought a bunch of the hood scoops from Ford and turned them forward for the '62-'63 Super Duty Catalina and Tempest drag cars.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Mark B. Morrow

[Bob Rosadini]

Bob, I think some of the truck manufacturers are starting to take notice of the growing market for short-haul class 8 tractors for intermodal work. Western Star's new 4700 was introduced last year as a vocational truck, but now they are offering a 13L Detroit powered, set forward front axle, tandem daycab tractor application aimed squarely at intermodal.

 

Two years ago rumor was Ford was considering a higher powered tandem axle 'F-850', but the idea didn't go anywhere. Will anything like that come out of Avon Lake?

7m-How about this 4700? Brand new owned by the airport at Owl's Head Maine. 4WD, huge reversible front plow and wing. alum. spreader body

[Bob Rosadini]

Beautiful Truck. Is that a '68? I'm guessing based on the reflector on the hood. I remember those N-T Series trucks from my childhood when they were everywhere. I still see a few in service.

 

Interesting side note: Pontiac bought a bunch of the hood scoops from Ford and turned them forward for the '62-'63 Super Duty Catalina and Tempest drag cars.

Not sure-I think the "high roof" became std in 65/66. This truck is from Canads. Only place I've ever seen it is the ATCA show at Macungie PA. But it is a beauty. Not that heavy-I think it has 34,000 rears but it is well done. wish I owned it!

[7Mary3]

Wow, looks like Ford's class 6 and 7 sales for 2012 are not going to be pretty. I hope that the Avon Lake plan is not in jeopardy, but if Ford's volume in class 6 and 7 stay this low, I don't see how they are going to make any money at it. Has the wind-down of Blue Diamond started? Maybe that would explain the situation. V-10 F-650 production should have started by now, and that should help.

[theoldwizard]

V-10 F-650 production should have started by now, and that should help.

I don't think it starts until sometime in 2013.

[Bob Rosadini]

I don't think it starts until sometime in 2013.

I was told there was a delay associated with a problem with a wirig harness or some such issue. Its a shame they are not on the ground right now to capitalize on Navistar's issues. Plus I've noted lately that Hino has a direct campaign to capture the fuel home delivery business. Ford OWNED that market with the C ceries and then the LN-8000. The F-750 offers the specs for that application, but they have never pushed it.

 

In the meantime, I see more and more Dodges in applications that Ford owned! Sure would be nice to see/hear news that they DO care about trucks beyond high dollar 150's and 250's.

[7Mary3]

I don't think it starts until sometime in 2013.

 

I had a Job 1 date around here somewhere, and I thought it was 7/30/12 or so. You would probably know better.

[7Mary3]

Don't know about home heating oil delivery, but I'll but this will be the next big thing in propane delivery:

 

 

 

The customer talks about another make of truck with poor visibility and a wide turning radius. My guess is he's talking about a ............

[Bob Rosadini]

Don't know about home heating oil delivery, but I'll but this will be the next big thing in propane delivery:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV_B2UkkEjY

 

The customer talks about another make of truck with poor visibility and a wide turning radius. My guess is he's talking about a ............

Shocker! Ford didn't beat them to the punch! Remember when Ford was the ONLY manufacturer with a factory propane option?