Avon Lake Medium Duty

[RichardJensen]

Calculated risk. Pruning unproductive branches of the business is seldom easy, and I won't say that a bit of personal pique didn't go into the decision to 'launch and abandon' the 6/750.

 

But there is a legitimate business case, I think, in saying, "You know what? We can't make this product as good as it can be, we can't get out of this contract until ____, and 'the thing about customers is there's always another one coming along.'"

 

Yeah, Ford may have lost some business, but it's not as though the bulk of that can't be regained over time and on better terms.

[lfeg]

Well, if that is the case, what are they going to do for dealers for the mediums? In my general region the two largest Ford medium dealers are now Freightliner dealers - all signs of Ford are gone. Selling in the medium market is not something the average Ford dealer can handle, it is pretty specialized, and you need service facilities that can handle the trucks (space, lift capacity, depth of the parts department). And additional training/certification for service personell. One example is in some states just to inspect and adjust air brakes it takes someone with air brake certification and such.

 

Even if they come out with a gotta have medium (which I question), who is going to sell it?

[Joe771476]

Regarding Rosenbauer Bob, they are a big player in the large departments as well! They are a worldwide company.

[7Mary3]

Richard makes sense, it's sort of like 'we must destroy the village in order to save it'. And in any case, Ford's tactic is not as extreme as what GM evidentally plans to do (get all the way out of the business for a few years).

 

Not doubting what Joe says about Rosenbauer, but I don't believe I have ever seen one on the west coast. L.A. City and County use Pierce, Seagrave, and KME.

[SoonerLS]

Richard makes sense, it's sort of like 'we must destroy the village in order to save it'. And in any case, Ford's tactic is not as extreme as what GM evidentally plans to do (get all the way out of the business for a few years).

Well, it worked for the Russians/Soviets against Napoleon and Hitler; if you burn that son of a gun to the ground, there's nothing for your enemies to use against you...

[RichardJensen]

Or Sherman.

 

But anyway, I think if Ford goes back in, they'll be able to pick up dealers easily enough. After all, Ford's slow abandonment of the Navistar line isn't the shabbiest thing that a major mfr. has done to heavy truck dealers in the past decade (Daimler's abrupt cancellation of Sterling and the messy end to the GM/Isuzu JV product being worse for dealers, IMO).

[Bob Rosadini]

Or Sherman.

 

But anyway, I think if Ford goes back in, they'll be able to pick up dealers easily enough. After all, Ford's slow abandonment of the Navistar line isn't the shabbiest thing that a major mfr. has done to heavy truck dealers in the past decade (Daimler's abrupt cancellation of Sterling and the messy end to the GM/Isuzu JV product being worse for dealers, IMO).

For sure-just take a look at the multi flag dealers that exist today. 25 years ago you were a Mack factory branch, or Brockway or IH etc. Today with all the consolidation its a different story. As always, Ford will have to contend with "car" dealers who will fight to keep some sort of exclusive on 250-550.

 

Ford in my book should be firm-make the investment to properly serve the 250-750-and hopefully 850+ base, or sell 150/235 and low end Transits (low gvw that is). I know for a fact- one former dealer development HD dealer, morphed into Sterling. They kept ford mediums but the car guys kept them from 250/350-not sure about 450, 550, to protect a long saznding car guy-who ultimately folded in any case.

[Joe771476]

Pratt & Whitney, the jet engine maker here in nearby Middletown CT, is using F750's for their hauling needs. Back when Ford was in class 8, P & W was using various brands I believe, but then I think they stopped using Ford. Now they're using the 750's. I wonder if Mulally called in some markers from his days at Boeing!

[Bob Rosadini]

Pratt & Whitney, the jet engine maker here in nearby Middletown CT, is using F750's for their hauling needs. Back when Ford was in class 8, P & W was using various brands I believe, but then I think they stopped using Ford. Now they're using the 750's. I wonder if Mulally called in some markers from his days at Boeing!

Straight trucks right? no tractors? If anyone has access to the ATHS 2012 National show book, the 1965 B 67 on page 134 is a former P & W tractor I believe.

[twintornados]

Pratt & Whitney, the jet engine maker here in nearby Middletown CT, is using F750's for their hauling needs. Back when Ford was in class 8, P & W was using various brands I believe, but then I think they stopped using Ford. Now they're using the 750's. I wonder if Mulally called in some markers from his days at Boeing!

It couldn't possibly be that the F750 fit their needs and was a good value for them could it?? Naw...lets just assume it was a back room deal......

[lfeg]

Straight trucks right? no tractors? If anyone has access to the ATHS 2012 National show book, the 1965 B 67 on page 134 is a former P & W tractor I believe.

 

That is a great publication, Bob. I have not yet had enough time to look it over cover to cover.

[Bob Rosadini]

That is a great publication, Bob. I have not yet had enough time to look it over cover to cover.

 

10-4! Pay close attention to the Macks!. Great show- 1002 trucks registered- I was there for three days and there are trucks in the book I never saw-I guess that is the best part of shows like that, you meet old friends or strike up a conversation with new ones-and before you know it, 45 min. is gone!

 

Only disappointment to me was there were not that many big Fords. Northeast to me was always big Ford country. check out the T-950 on page 82. Probably looks the same as when it pulled its last load. And Dennis has a huge collection-including a bunch of big Fords-he is currently looking for an F-1100.

[Joe771476]

You know Bob, you're right. Here in New England, every other big truck you saw was a Ford back in the day! But when I read the numbers, they weren't as high as I thought they should be. Same thing for Mustang. I see twice as many Mustangs here, but nationwide Camaro outsells them! I don't get it! I guess the rest of the country isn't as dedicated to Ford.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Joe771476

[lfeg]

Maybe not relevant here, but an observation that might relate to the commercial activities of Ram (Dodge). I recently spent some time at automotive facilities south of the border. On the road in several locations I saw some new Ram 5500 Series box trucks, but with a difference - true dual wheel tandems. (Yes, two pumpkins). The wheelbases had to exceed 180 inches and the frames were really deep section channel, not what you normally see on the Ram 5500. Testers? Plopping a Ram cab on a heavy medium frame? I have no idea.

[Bob Rosadini]

Maybe not relevant here, but an observation that might relate to the commercial activities of Ram (Dodge). I recently spent some time at automotive facilities south of the border. On the road in several locations I saw some new Ram 5500 Series box trucks, but with a difference - true dual wheel tandems. (Yes, two pumpkins). The wheelbases had to exceed 180 inches and the frames were really deep section channel, not what you normally see on the Ram 5500. Testers? Plopping a Ram cab on a heavy medium frame? I have no idea.

Very relevant in my opinion. I think that Dodge always had different trucks in SA, but keep in mind now that this guy Marchione is not just looking at Chrysler-he is looking at integrating Chrysler and Fiat on an increasing rate-the new Dart has a lot of Fiat roots I believe and they are looking at resurecting the Alpha-Romeo (sp?) name in this country. Having said that, look at Iveco. A big player in big trucks. Bottom line, they do have in house capability to engineer a truck. It appears that "synergy" is a word Marchione understands and I have to believe he will not ignore Iveco's capabilities.

[7Mary3]

Maybe not relevant here, but an observation that might relate to the commercial activities of Ram (Dodge). I recently spent some time at automotive facilities south of the border. On the road in several locations I saw some new Ram 5500 Series box trucks, but with a difference - true dual wheel tandems. (Yes, two pumpkins). The wheelbases had to exceed 180 inches and the frames were really deep section channel, not what you normally see on the Ram 5500. Testers? Plopping a Ram cab on a heavy medium frame? I have no idea.

 

VERY interesting! Going back a few years, Dodge left the HD class 8 market in early 1975, and left medium duty in the U.S. and Canada at the end of the 1977 model year. However, Dodge continued to produce the D-600 and D-700 medium duty trucks in Mexico for many more years. In fact, in 1996 Dodge upgraded their medium line with the new-for-1994 Ram cab. These trucks continued in production until the Daimler-Chrysler fiasco. Seems at the time Freightliner was making a big push in the Mexican market, and didn't want 'in-house' competition from Dodge. I think 1998 was the last year for the medium duty Dodge in Mexico. Sounds like they want back in.

[Bob Rosadini]

To add to the Dodge issue, they just announced the formation of a commercial truck group. This is coming just before they announce changes to the 2013's. One other significant thing is they also announced that the hemi will be available in the 3500 series. I never realized it, but that series had been Cummins only. This whacks 10 grand off the sticker. If Ford thought they had competition in class 3-4 before, it only gets worse now. Not sure if a manual will be available but again if it is, that makes the Dodge option thsat much more attractive to those diehards who have to have a manual.

[fordmantpw]

To add to the Dodge issue, they just announced the formation of a commercial truck group. This is coming just before they announce changes to the 2013's. One other significant thing is they also announced that the hemi will be available in the 3500 series. I never realized it, but that series had been Cummins only. This whacks 10 grand off the sticker. If Ford thought they had competition in class 3-4 before, it only gets worse now. Not sure if a manual will be available but again if it is, that makes the Dodge option thsat much more attractive to those diehards who have to have a manual.

 

Yes, Dodge will still have a manual, as well as 3 different ratings for the Cummins. The manual gets 660 ft-lbs, then one auto with 800 and another with 850.

 

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2012/09/first-look-2013-ram-25003500-hd.html

[Bob Rosadini]

Yes, Dodge will still have a manual, as well as 3 different ratings for the Cummins. The manual gets 660 ft-lbs, then one auto with 800 and another with 850.

 

http://news.pickuptr...5003500-hd.html

The big news tome however-which the attachment doesn't cover-is the establishment of a commercial marketing unit. If they are kicking Ford's butt in class 3,4,5 WITHOUT a dedicsated sales unit, thinbk how they will be with people focused on commercial business. See the article in Saturday Detroit News.

[Joe771476]

Latest issue of Transport Topics says Volkswagen is NOT interested in International. They're going to stay with their Scania and Mann brands and not delve into the US market.

[Bob Rosadini]

Others have mentioned that GM with the now defunct 4500/5500's had made inroads in the ambulance trade. Well watching the news tonite and there is a new BOSTON EMS unit- one of the new Navistar class 4/5's. And that is powered by our favorite V-8 diesel! I'm always making excuses that sales are lost in the short term because the taste of the 6.0 lingers on. Apparently that 6.0 legacy is not a problem-at least in a Navistar.

[lfeg]

Others have mentioned that GM with the now defunct 4500/5500's had made inroads in the ambulance trade. Well watching the news tonite and there is a new BOSTON EMS unit- one of the new Navistar class 4/5's. And that is powered by our favorite V-8 diesel! I'm always making excuses that sales are lost in the short term because the taste of the 6.0 lingers on. Apparently that 6.0 legacy is not a problem-at least in a Navistar.

 

The Navistar version of the 6.0 has never seemed to have the same issues as the Ford version. My thought is the more conservative commercial tuning and ratings. They are popular in school busses around here and there seem to be no issues with them. Also, in my area just about all ambulances except those of some private companies are Freightliner or International based.

[Bob Rosadini]

The Navistar version of the 6.0 has never seemed to have the same issues as the Ford version. My thought is the more conservative commercial tuning and ratings. They are popular in school busses around here and there seem to be no issues with them. Also, in my area just about all ambulances except those of some private companies are Freightliner or International based.

 

Agreed- is not the fuel delivery/injection system different? Also the point I was trying to make is that many of us (me for sure) blame Ford's lost dominance in class4/5 on the "sour taste" related to the 6.0/6.4 engine-real or imagined.. It could also be a backlash to the lighter specs that 450/550 have vs the old 4500/5500 GMs and now the F'liner and Navistar offerings. Lets face it, the ratings -i.e. 19,000 lb GVW may be the same, but the Ford is an offshoot of a class 3 chassis and the others are a downsized/derated class 6/7 chassis. At least that is how it appeares to me. I remember going to show and comparing a 550 chassis vs. a 5500 GM-visually, you would never guess they had the same GVW.

 

Move quickly Ford as the key markets previously "owned" are being erroded at an increasing rate. We all know what Nero did as Rome burned!

[lfeg]

Trying to stay on track with this. One thing that I see as an essential offering on mediums is availability of a natural gas engine, preferably at a reasonable price. And the 6.8 V10 will not make it for the serious class 6 and 7 market. The light end of class 6, yes, but they need something else for heavier service.

 

The reason that I say this is that I have recently read of two good size fleets in N E Ohio (both within about a 75 mile radius of Avon Lake) are adding CNG trucks to their fleets, and expect to be primarily CNG in 4 to 6 years. One just completed a new refueling and fuel storage facility (both diesel and CNG) at a cost of about $2M. The prime factor is cost, with all taxes added CNG is just below half the cost of diesel. And maintenance costs are lower also. Both are going with Freightliner class 7 mediums with the Cummins-Westport NG engines. One is also going with CNG on their class 8 tractors.

 

For fleets with central refueling facilities where routes are such that remote refueling is not needed, both CNG and LNG are looking very attractive. And it is not only fuel cost, but the cost of maintaining emissions control equipment on the new generations of diesels.

Edited October 2, 2012 by lfeg

[SoonerLS]

For fleets with central refueling facilities where routes are such that remote refueling is not needed, both CNG and LNG are looking very attractive. And it is not only fuel cost, but the cost of maintaining emissions control equipment on the new generations of diesels.

We're starting to see an increase in CNG availability; Love's Travel Stops, f'rinstance, just opened new CNG stations at six of their stores, and plan to have a total of eleven open by the end of the year, so it may not be all that long before you no longer need a centralized fleet fueling station for CNG to make sense.

Edited October 2, 2012 by SoonerLS