Bob Rosadini Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Probably because a Turkish designed cabover would have very few buyers in the U.S.! Could Avon Lake build such a truck? Probably, but you might want to ask how serious they are about mediums in the first place. Some say that whole program isn't much more than a bone thrown at the UAW to make good on a promise made 2 contracts ago. I for one hope it's more than that......... 7M-I'm not sure the fact it was "designed" in Turkey is in itself that big an issue. From what I've seen in the Ford Otasan ads on Youtube, these trucks look like they are in very severe service. I would imagine that under "One Ford" there would be some synergisms from a design perspective-at least I hope that would be the case.. One of my biggest questions is, does Ford have the engineering talent in the US to design a proper truck that will be built at Avon Lake? I would hope that they would draw heavily from not only the work that has been done by Ford in Turkey, but also the work that has been done in SA-notably Brazil with their versions of the Cargo. As for your concern about Avon Lake being a "bone" tossed out at the bargaining table, I too share that concern. I keep saying I see no evidence that they are serious about class 6/7-never mind getting back into 8, then I convince myself they are in a holding pattern to get through the Bluediamond era-that is, Ford is not going to devote a lot of effort so Navistar can make the lion's share of the profit. The downside of that, is that F'liner, Paccar, Hino and of course Navistar benefit while Ford is silent with a 13 year old product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 I would defer to your experience in the field of heavy trucks, but would love to see a "One Ford" Cargo in both cab over and conventional styles. "One Ford" would create a conventional cab and cab over design that shares more common parts so that the economy of scale for profitability can be achieved at a lower volume level. With regards to a conventional cab and a cabover sharing common parts, that has been successfully done before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Troublemaker Carl Icahn is trying to buy $3 billion of Oshkosh stock to get on the board. He's already on the board at Navistar and wants to merge the two! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 Troublemaker Carl Icahn is trying to buy $3 billion of Oshkosh stock to get on the board. He's already on the board at Navistar and wants to merge the two! Well, maybe. When Icahn first bought into Oshkosh and Navistar, I believe a merger was what he was shooting for. Now, thinks have changed a bit. I think he wants to break Navistar up, sell their military business to Oshkosh, maybe get Navistar out of the engine business (might not be a bad idea, considering....) and leave Navistar in trucks alone. Icahn is also not happy with some of Oshkosh's recent aquisitions in the construction equipment field, and would like to see them spun off. Corporate raider or not, sometimes the man makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Well, maybe. When Icahn first bought into Oshkosh and Navistar, I believe a merger was what he was shooting for. Now, thinks have changed a bit. I think he wants to break Navistar up, sell their military business to Oshkosh, maybe get Navistar out of the engine business (might not be a bad idea, considering....) and leave Navistar in trucks alone. Icahn is also not happy with some of Oshkosh's recent aquisitions in the construction equipment field, and would like to see them spun off. Corporate raider or not, sometimes the man makes sense. Per an article in the WSJ a few days ago he wants to.."break Oshkosh up". Not sure what that accomplishes. Const. equipment outfit they bought was JLG whose primry business is boom lifts-telehandlers- very versatile machines in the building business-as opposed to heavy construction. Now this week they are talking about housing starts making a comeback in all areas but Northeast. All of a sudden do boom lifts make sense??? As for him wanting International out of the engine business, I don't understand that. Paccar, Volvo/Mack, F'liner/Western Star are all hanging their hats on a proprietary engine. If Navistar can sort out their EGR/SCR issue shouldn't that be a plus? No doubt the loss of the Powerstroke contract had to be huge but if the emissions issue is solved, I would have tothink a proprietary engine that works in class6, 7, and 8 would give them a big advantage. On that thought, does Cat's success with their truck impact Navistar's surviva as I believe Cat is making the big blocks for Navistar???l. At least her in New England you never see the Cats on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) Who in the hell does Icahn think he is? I heard he bankrupted and sold an airline 3 times and made millions! Why should Navistar not make their own engine? Isn't a crane division a good complement to Oshkosh's current lineup? This whole shareholder crap is just that..crap! All these companies should go private and send these raiders packing! Edited October 20, 2012 by Joe771476 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Check out Mackinaw's post on Barb Samarzdich (sp?)......."We have a huge relationship with our Otosan [joint venture] partner in Turkey. We do a lot of development work there to support our Transit vehicles as well as our powertrain development." Kind of supports some thought that the work on the Cargo might filter down to what takes place at Avon Lake. Keep in mind they have an 8 or 9 liter six cyliner diesel. Might be "dirty" as hell right now but who knows??? Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20121021/COPY01/310219993#ixzz2A4sI0Vz8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Thanks Bob. Another tidbit: Hino is coming out with a Class 5 cabover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Navistar annonced they are closing the Garland Texas plant in 2013. Again, to cut costs and maximize utilization at other plants. One of the trucks built there is the class 4/5 Terrastar. That doesn't seem to be a big seller but in any case, this could force more Navistar production on Escobedo and I would have to think that the dissolution of Bluediamond made this a much more logical decision on Navistar's part. How about it Avon Lake employees? See any signs of plant mods yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 I was wondering when we might see a protoype. Anyone know the platform code? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Thanks Bob. Another tidbit: Hino is coming out with a Class 5 cabover. Bu...bu...bu...but cabover designs are not popular in the North American marketplace.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Bu...bu...bu...but cabover designs are not popular in the North American marketplace.... So it seems- but I do see plenty of them running around here. I think the big attraction is their reliable engines as much as the cab configuration. I still say the LCF would have been a reasonable success if it hadn't had that abortion of a V-6 Powerstroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I was wondering when we might see a protoype. Anyone know the platform code? How about it Mark M in Pittsburgh? You work for Allegheny right? There must be some kind of news leaking out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) So it seems- but I do see plenty of them running around here. I think the big attraction is their reliable engines as much as the cab configuration. I still say the LCF would have been a reasonable success if it hadn't had that abortion of a V-6 Powerstroke. I still wonder if the old 4.9L straight six would have been a viable candidate to upgrade for diesel duty...I mean really, that thing was one stout mo~fo....direct gear driven cam in block, big crank journals, heavy cast iron construction...re-imagine that design with CGI iron and a modern crossflow head in a "powerstroke" configuration....make it 5.5L and WOW!! What a brute....or if not good for a diesel...maybe an Ecoboost version with gas direct injection and turbo power....now THAT would be a nice medium duty truck motor.... Edited November 1, 2012 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 How about it Mark M in Pittsburgh? You work for Allegheny right? There must be some kind of news leaking out? I don't work there, I'm a lawyer. My office is across the river from Allegheny Ford Truck. Someone on the forum does work there based on their response to one of my old posts. I can't remember who it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I don't work there, I'm a lawyer. My office is across the river from Allegheny Ford Truck. Someone on the forum does work there based on their response to one of my old posts. I can't remember who it is. -Uh Sorry about that.- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I still wonder if the old 4.9L straight six would have been a viable candidate to upgrade for diesel duty...I mean really, that thing was one stout mo~fo....direct gear driven cam in block, big crank journals, heavy cast iron construction...re-imagine that design with CGI iron and a modern crossflow head in a "powerstroke" configuration....make it 5.5L and WOW!! What a brute....or if not good for a diesel...maybe an Ecoboost version with gas direct injection and turbo power....now THAT would be a nice medium duty truck motor.... For sure-one great motor-don't know if it would be strong enough to handle the compression ratio for diesel use but interesting thought if you could go the Ecoboost route. If you can get 365 HP out of 3.5 liters, what could you get out of 4.9-or 5.5.. I've had the same thoughts abput a lot of the old gas engines-what would they do with today's sophisticated fuel/air/ignition systems?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) I still wonder if the old 4.9L straight six would have been a viable candidate to upgrade for diesel duty...I mean really, that thing was one stout mo~fo....direct gear driven cam in block, big crank journals, heavy cast iron construction...re-imagine that design with CGI iron and a modern crossflow head in a "powerstroke" configuration....make it 5.5L and WOW!! What a brute....or if not good for a diesel...maybe an Ecoboost version with gas direct injection and turbo power....now THAT would be a nice medium duty truck motor.... I think that was actually under consideration at one time back in the late 70's for light trucks. Still might not have been 'heavy duty' enough for mediums though. I am primarily thinking about the number of head bolts the 4.9L had (4 around each cylinder, just like the Olds 350 diesel). Looking at the gas engine to diesel conversions that were 'somewhat' successful (GMC V-6/Toroflow and IH V-549/DV-550), those engines were way overbuilt for gassers, but even so were marginal diesels, at least in medium duty truck service. Edited November 1, 2012 by 7Mary3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Bu...bu...bu...but cabover designs are not popular in the North American marketplace.... Class 5, sure for city work. But the Cargo is a class 7-8 rig, and unless you haul trash.......... Look at the Volvo FH Globetrotter and Mercedes Actros, very highly regarded cabover class 8 trucks in Europe that Volvo/Mack and Freightliner could easily bring to the U.S.. But they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I still wonder if the old 4.9L straight six would have been a viable candidate to upgrade for diesel duty...I mean really, that thing was one stout mo~fo....direct gear driven cam in block, big crank journals, heavy cast iron construction...re-imagine that design with CGI iron and a modern crossflow head in a "powerstroke" configuration.... There was actually a "skunk works" project that did design and build a crossflow head for the 4.9L. I don't recall if it was OHC or not. I'm not sure it ever got dyno tested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 And Ford could bring their cabovers over too! At least bring them over for fire apparatus sevice. Hook up with Rosenbauer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 There was actually a "skunk works" project that did design and build a crossflow head for the 4.9L. I don't recall if it was OHC or not. I'm not sure it ever got dyno tested. Back in the day there was also a drag racing team that developed a performance head for the 300 six by cutting up some Cleveland V8 heads and furnace brazing them together to fit. They had impressive results. Also, many might not know this, but there was a version of the 300 built for medium truck service, if I recall it was used in mediums up to the F750 range. Not alot of power, but it would pull all day long without complaint. Engines for Mediums are not about high specific output, they are about reasonable, reliable continuous output while keeping stresses relatively low in key components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 And Ford could bring their cabovers over too! At least bring them over for fire apparatus sevice. Hook up with Rosenbauer. Not going to happen. That is a low volume market and could never cover the cost to maintain a parts and service network, let alone cost to comply with our federal standards. I bet the Hino cabover shares many engine, chassis, and systems components with the rest of their line up here - that will just add part numbers to the parts and service system, not require a ground-up effort something like the Cargo would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 ....Engines for Mediums are not about high specific output, they are about reasonable, reliable continuous output while keeping stresses relatively low in key components. That description fits the 4.9L straight six spot on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Back in the day there was also a drag racing team that developed a performance head for the 300 six by cutting up some Cleveland V8 heads and furnace brazing them together to fit. They had impressive results. Some small race tracks in the 60s had a 6 cylinder class on small dirt ovals. It was dominated by the "BIG Ford I6" with a 4 barel carb ! Also, many might not know this, but there was a version of the 300 built for medium truck service, if I recall it was used in mediums up to the F750 range. Not alot of power, but it would pull all day long without complaint. IIRC, that version had forged rods and crank ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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