hwyman3 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Others have mentioned that GM with the now defunct 4500/5500's had made inroads in the ambulance trade. Well watching the news tonite and there is a new BOSTON EMS unit- one of the new Navistar class 4/5's. And that is powered by our favorite V-8 diesel! I'm always making excuses that sales are lost in the short term because the taste of the 6.0 lingers on. Apparently that 6.0 legacy is not a problem-at least in a Navistar. Our local Volunteer rescue squad used to be an all Ford fleet, until 2 years ago when they took delivery of a 2008 GMC 4500/Horton. Now they are planning on two more new ambulances. They wanted to go with the GMCs again, but since that chassis is not available, they are going Freightliner, mainly due to the lack of availability of a Ford Diesel E-Series, and that they couldn't even get anyone to bring an F-650 demo down to them. A neighboring rescue squad, with 6 ambulances, is in the process of rechassising their ambulances at a rate of one a year. They were all Ford E-series, now their two newest are Chevrolets, again because of no diesel option for a Ford E-Series. A few have made the switch to the F-Series, but by and large, International has picked up the bulk of the new purchases since the loss of the Powerstroke for the E-series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Yesterday I noticed the Waste Management truck on my route was natural gas powered - it had big letters on the side saying so. It got my attention because it didn't sound like any big truck I've heard before. From down the street it sounded like a big electric motor. From what I have read, it sounds like Waste Management is converting its entire fleet over to CNG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Yesterday I noticed the Waste Management truck on my route was natural gas powered - it had big letters on the side saying so. Waste Manaement has already announced that 100% of their fleet will be CNG, I think by 2015 ! It is a HUGE cost savings !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 One thing that I see as an essential offering on mediums is availability of a natural gas engine, preferably at a reasonable price. I agree 100%. But don't expect Ford to be a leader in this area. They still think CNG and LP are niche markets and are willing to let the aftermarket handle it. And the 6.8 V10 will not make it for the serious class 6 and 7 market. The light end of class 6, yes, but they need something else for heavier service. I agree 110% !! Turbos are NOT the answer. Fleets want low purchase price (gasoline, non-turbo) and low operating costs (CNG or LP) and reasonable power. The 6.8L misses on the last point, by a mile. Maybe bumping the 6.2L V8 up to 7.0L (or more) is the answer ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I agree 100%. But don't expect Ford to be a leader in this area. They still think CNG and LP are niche markets and are willing to let the aftermarket handle it. I agree 110% !! Turbos are NOT the answer. Fleets want low purchase price (gasoline, non-turbo) and low operating costs (CNG or LP) and reasonable power. The 6.8L misses on the last point, by a mile. Maybe bumping the 6.2L V8 up to 7.0L (or more) is the answer ? Perish the thought, but the 460 was a successful engine in the industrial market. I wonder how costly that would be to resurrect? I'm sure that anything with pushrods would be viewed by many as "old school" but "what works?" seems to be a reasonable thought right now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with respect to the 6.2, isn't there a lot of opinion on this forum that the motor has limited options in terms of increased displacement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I agree 100%. But don't expect Ford to be a leader in this area. They still think CNG and LP are niche markets and are willing to let the aftermarket handle it. I agree 110% !! Turbos are NOT the answer. Fleets want low purchase price (gasoline, non-turbo) and low operating costs (CNG or LP) and reasonable power. The 6.8L misses on the last point, by a mile. Maybe bumping the 6.2L V8 up to 7.0L (or more) is the answer ? I believe they when the 6.2 was first released Ford people said it was capable of 7.0l. What if Ford were able to "coyote-ize" the 6.8 similar to how they did to the 4.6 and 5.4 (GT500 5.8l)? My rough calculations say it could be enlarged to around 7.4l. Is that enough to make a meaningful difference? The limited number of applications might prevent Ford from wanting to invest in something like that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I believe they when the 6.2 was first released Ford people said it was capable of 7.0l. What if Ford were able to "coyote-ize" the 6.8 similar to how they did to the 4.6 and 5.4 (GT500 5.8l)? My rough calculations say it could be enlarged to around 7.4l. Is that enough to make a meaningful difference? The limited number of applications might prevent Ford from wanting to invest in something like that though. I do not think that that would do. Expensive, limited market, and the power (and mostly torque) would end up being short. Sure the 429 truck version worked well in applications in up to the F800 in the "old days", but the market today is used to the torque levels of the diesels that have been in use for quite a while now. To have a non turbo NG engine that would be competitive in the meat of the class 6 & 7 market you will probably need a displacement of about 9.5 to 11 liters. Just remember that hp ratings must be on the conservative side given the rigors of operation that are seen in these applications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 You are 100% correct. Based on what I'm seeing now, if I were a fleet buyer would I be even considering a ford right now? I doubt it- they show little evidence of being a real player. At first the Avon Lake announcement sounded good. Then we see no evidence that anything is happening. The website? forget it-a lot of data on cup holders and sunvisors- NO MEAT! look at Hino's website. Scary! I pulled into Altech Mfg. yard today in Sterling MA. They build bucket trucks. 7M3-have any in your fleet? In any case there are probably 50 33,000lb chassis in the yard awaiting fitting. Most are M2 Freightliners with Supercabs. Also a few Internationals but the bulk are F'liners. On a positive note, probably 50 F-550 PStrokes with the 19,500lb package-all 100 chassis are white so I'm betting on the same customer. the last time I saw any 650/750's there was probably over a year ago. Utilities-another markert that Ford was a key player in. Wouldn't it make sense that if someone would go with 50 550's, they would prefer to be dealing with the same builder for their class 6 and 7's-and 8's for that matter? On another note, was getting a haircut and the new M'trend was in the rack. Article on a "road test" of a 650 with V-10. foolish articvle wrtitten by people who have probably NEVER driven a truck-but the point is there is at least ONE V-10 running around! UPDate' Pulled into the Altech yard today. Business is good for these guys . Again bulk of class 7's awaiting bodies F'liners-although there were two new 750's that had been completed. On a negative note, still a big batch of 550 pstrokes awaiting bodies ("First Utility" customer name on windshield tickets. however about 25 5500 Dodge diesels- Northeast Utilities listed as customer on windshield-Joe 76-they were white not the old yellow. First time I have seen any 5500 Dodges at this site. Very few Navistars on site. Coincidence I'm sure -then again their sales numbers woud reflect that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Trying to stay on track with this. One thing that I see as an essential offering on mediums is availability of a natural gas engine, preferably at a reasonable price. And the 6.8 V10 will not make it for the serious class 6 and 7 market. The light end of class 6, yes, but they need something else for heavier service. ............. That's the thing. Last year, availability of a CNG option was basically limited to heavy duty class 8 trucks, using the Westport/Cummins ISL-G. We spec.ed out a few CNG Freightliner M2 112's for a medium duty application, just because we wanted to get more CNG trucks in the fleet. The result was a little overkill, but the only real negative for us is that the driver requires a commercial license. That situation will change very quickly, because many fleets are clamoring for a CNG class truck with a 26,000# GVW. I think offering the 6.8L in the F-650 was a great move for Ford, but I also think beyond a class 6 van or stake bed, the 6.8L is not going to be enough. Convert it to CNG and of course things will get even more marginal. If Ford, or any other OEM for that matter, wants to offer a CNG class 6 or 7, they will eventually need a purpose designed CNG engine. A diesel conversion has its own shortcomings. I think the ecomonics will eventually be there for a ground-up design. I will not be at all surprised if CNG outnumbers diesel in class 6 and 7 sales within 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 That's the thing. Last year, availability of a CNG option was basically limited to heavy duty class 8 trucks, using the Westport/Cummins ISL-G. We spec.ed out a few CNG Freightliner M2 112's for a medium duty application, just because we wanted to get more CNG trucks in the fleet. The result was a little overkill, but the only real negative for us is that the driver requires a commercial license. That situation will change very quickly, because many fleets are clamoring for a CNG class truck with a 26,000# GVW. I think offering the 6.8L in the F-650 was a great move for Ford, but I also think beyond a class 6 van or stake bed, the 6.8L is not going to be enough. Convert it to CNG and of course things will get even more marginal. If Ford, or any other OEM for that matter, wants to offer a CNG class 6 or 7, they will eventually need a purpose designed CNG engine. A diesel conversion has its own shortcomings. I think the ecomonics will eventually be there for a ground-up design. I will not be at all surprised if CNG outnumbers diesel in class 6 and 7 sales within 10 years. Question-is that based on performance/lower operating cost of CNG vs. diesel-exclusive of cost per mile for fuel? Reason I ask is the fuel cost issue is always a moving target. Right now we have nat gas coming out of our ears. As more coal fired power plants go off line and convert to nat gas, as residual fuel oil (No. 6) disappears as an industrial plant fuel -and residential fuel for that matter in old high rise apartments, and as the nat gas distribution network expands in Northeast displacing no. 2 as a home heating fuel, does th cost of gas start to creep up.? Look at what the price of diesel vs. regular gas has done to the economics of gas vs. diesel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 As more coal fired power plants go off line and convert to nat gas, as residual fuel oil (No. 6) disappears as an industrial plant fuel -and residential fuel for that matter in old high rise apartments, and as the nat gas distribution network expands in Northeast displacing no. 2 as a home heating fuel, does th cost of gas start to creep up.? I wouldn't be surprised to see NG prices rise, but, IMHO, a dramatic increase would require some kind of external force (eg, gov't regulations). We have HUGE reserves of natural gas, and we keep discovering more--and there are some rather large gas fields where we've barely scratched the surface (no pun intended) when it comes to production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 as the nat gas distribution network expands in Northeast displacing no. 2 as a home heating fuel, does th cost of gas start to creep up.? Look at what the price of diesel vs. regular gas has done to the economics of gas vs. diesel? No, two totally unrelated items...when you refine a barrel of oil, you get a certain percentage of refined materials, as seen here: The reason Diesel went up so much is due to extra refining to create ULSD....of course the refiners I'm sure jacked the price up to cover their costs of switching over to refining ULSD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 The reason Diesel went up so much is due to extra refining to create ULSD....of course the refiners I'm sure jacked the price up to cover their costs of switching over to refining ULSD Well, they're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts; they're in business to make money, so if costs go up, their prices will go up, too. The petroleum industry learned long ago something that the Detroit 3 (well, at least Ford) have only recently figured out--if it costs you more money to produce something than you get when you sell it, you don't produce it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 No, two totally unrelated items...when you refine a barrel of oil, you get a certain percentage of refined materials, as seen here: The reason Diesel went up so much is due to extra refining to create ULSD....of course the refiners I'm sure jacked the price up to cover their costs of switching over to refining ULSD Not sure wsat you meant by .."totally unrelated items" BTU'S ARE BTU'S regardless if it comes from refined products or natural gas. I'm just raising the question that the world energy scene is a fickle one. You are correct-the price of diesel went up in part because of the conversion to ULSD. It also has gone up because of the huge demand for diesel in such countries as China and India. As we are seeing, the Chinese economy is cooling a bit and that SHOULD create a downward pressure on price. I'm sure natural gas, be it in the LNG or CNG form will have its place. It is not without drawbacks however-at least in terms of todays technology. Be that related to the meagher infrastructure in place to distribute to the end user or the practical aspect that it adds to vehicle weight-or should I say, decreased payload. Not an issue if you "cube out" before you "weigh out" but if for example you are handling heavy loads (steel, bulk products) it is a real issue-IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 This just in- Westport will offer a CNG version of the Cummins 6.7L ISB engine. That could make a nice CNG option for the F-750, IF Cummins diesel will continue to be offered after 2014.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 Not sure wsat you meant by .."totally unrelated items" BTU'S ARE BTU'S regardless if it comes from refined products or natural gas. I'm just raising the question that the world energy scene is a fickle one. You are correct-the price of diesel went up in part because of the conversion to ULSD. It also has gone up because of the huge demand for diesel in such countries as China and India. As we are seeing, the Chinese economy is cooling a bit and that SHOULD create a downward pressure on price. I'm sure natural gas, be it in the LNG or CNG form will have its place. It is not without drawbacks however-at least in terms of todays technology. Be that related to the meagher infrastructure in place to distribute to the end user or the practical aspect that it adds to vehicle weight-or should I say, decreased payload. Not an issue if you "cube out" before you "weigh out" but if for example you are handling heavy loads (steel, bulk products) it is a real issue-IMO. I think the price of natural gas is likely to be more stable than oil if for the only reason we have vast reseves of it available domestically. Not to mention Canada as well. I suspect Chinese demand will pressure oil prices more than the increased usage of natural gas in the U.S. will drive up natural gas prices here. Yes, there are some disadvantages for CNG use in trucks, like the weight of the fuel system components and refueling infrastructure. However, the dramatic increases in the purchase price of diesel powered medium trucks coupled with generally poor fuel economy and reliability all caused by the new emission controls is making CNG very attractive. Sure, technology will eventually address those issues to a certain extent. At least until the standards are tightened again........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I think the price of natural gas is likely to be more stable than oil if for the only reason we have vast reseves of it available domestically. Not to mention Canada as well. I suspect Chinese demand will pressure oil prices more than the increased usage of natural gas in the U.S. will drive up natural gas prices here. Yes, there are some disadvantages for CNG use in trucks, like the weight of the fuel system components and refueling infrastructure. However, the dramatic increases in the purchase price of diesel powered medium trucks coupled with generally poor fuel economy and reliability all caused by the new emission controls is making CNG very attractive. Sure, technology will eventually address those issues to a certain extent. At least until the standards are tightened again........ 7M- You have mentioned that your company has bought some CNG class 7's. What was the price differential vs. comparable power diesels? My old company recently bought a bunch of Petes with LNG. Price differential was huge. Coupled with the weight penalty and a big cost to install refueling systems on site. Plus often times they can't complete a 10 hour shift without refueling. This is in a bulk operation operting in 80,000 lb. states as well as 100,000lb + special permit states (NY and New England ex Ct.) I'm sure someone looked at this as a PR opportunity but looking at it from a pure operating perspective, I'm not sure I would want to be a "pioneer" at this point. No doubt, the nat gas business is booming-in particular thanks to the shale issue and as long as the fracking issue dosen't become a political time bomb, from a supply perspective we SHOULD be okay-and heaven forebid, let's hope we don't have an LNG accident involving a storage facility or an LNG ship or we will have another "nuke" issue to deal with. In any case, back to your point on the 6.7, let's hope that leads to some 750 sales opportunities-assuming Ford makes it a factory option. If not now at least when Avon Lake comes on stream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Ford Otosan Cargo comes in third at International Truck Show! http://www.trucksplanet.com/index.php?id=719 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 If Ford is serious about "One Ford", they would integrate Cargo into the North American marketplace and I would think that Avon lake could handle the task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 And yet another source for CNG - biomethane. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/10/quasar_energy_to_build_more_di.html#incart_river What I like is that they are building public CNG fueling stations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 With Ford's recent joint venture with a Chinese heavy duty truck maker and their Turkish built Cargos exported to 60 countries, Ford could be THE heavy truck leader in the world if they got back into heavies in Europe and the US. Also, I didn't know Volvo Group owned UD, which as we know, is discontinuing sales in the US......finally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) If Ford is serious about "One Ford", they would integrate Cargo into the North American marketplace and I would think that Avon lake could handle the task. Probably because a Turkish designed cabover would have very few buyers in the U.S.! Could Avon Lake build such a truck? Probably, but you might want to ask how serious they are about mediums in the first place. Some say that whole program isn't much more than a bone thrown at the UAW to make good on a promise made 2 contracts ago. I for one hope it's more than that......... Edited October 12, 2012 by 7Mary3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Probably because a Turkish designed cabover would have very few buyers in the U.S.! Could Avon Lake build such a truck? Probably, but you might want to ask how serious they are about mediums in the first place. Some say that whole program isn't much more than a bone thrown at the UAW to make good on a promise made 2 contracts ago. I for one hope it's more than that......... The Cargo line is available around the globe...Euro markets, South American markets. It has the potential to reshape the North American medium and heavy truck market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 The Cargo line is available around the globe...Euro markets, South American markets. It has the potential to reshape the North American medium and heavy truck market. I would have to disagree with that. Cabovers were popular in class 8 trucks in North America for neary 30 years, but when all states moved away from length limitations and focused on gross weights and axle loading, cabovers very quickly fell out of favor. The only reason for running a cabover was to permit a longer trailer. In Europe and Asia, cabovers are still in favor due to their shorter length and better manevourability, factors not really valid in the U.S.. U.S. drivers much prefer the better ride, handling, and safety of conventionals. In the lighter weight classes, Asian class 6 and 7 cabovers did sell in small numbers but they have fallen out of favor due to mainly to a cost disadvantage. Hino changed all their class 6 and 7 trucks marketed in the U.S. to conventional design, Fuso and Isuzu withdrew from class 6 and 7, and UD pulled out of the U.S. market entirely. There just isn't a market for cabovers here anymore. The only exception is in class 4 and 5 delivery trucks, and specialized class 8 (mainly trash/refuse). Sorry, I just don't see any cabover reshaping the U.S. truck market anytime soon. Now, if Otosan were to develop a conventional............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I would have to disagree with that. Cabovers were popular in class 8 trucks in North America for neary 30 years, but when all states moved away from length limitations and focused on gross weights and axle loading, cabovers very quickly fell out of favor. The only reason for running a cabover was to permit a longer trailer. In Europe and Asia, cabovers are still in favor due to their shorter length and better manevourability, factors not really valid in the U.S.. U.S. drivers much prefer the better ride, handling, and safety of conventionals. In the lighter weight classes, Asian class 6 and 7 cabovers did sell in small numbers but they have fallen out of favor due to mainly to a cost disadvantage. Hino changed all their class 6 and 7 trucks marketed in the U.S. to conventional design, Fuso and Isuzu withdrew from class 6 and 7, and UD pulled out of the U.S. market entirely. There just isn't a market for cabovers here anymore. The only exception is in class 4 and 5 delivery trucks, and specialized class 8 (mainly trash/refuse). Sorry, I just don't see any cabover reshaping the U.S. truck market anytime soon. Now, if Otosan were to develop a conventional............. I would defer to your experience in the field of heavy trucks, but would love to see a "One Ford" Cargo in both cab over and conventional styles. "One Ford" would create a conventional cab and cab over design that shares more common parts so that the economy of scale for profitability can be achieved at a lower volume level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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