Ford Seeks to Make Lincoln a Glamour Car Again

[wescoent]

I was wondering what the heck happened to you over there. You were one of the few people that could be counted on to bring reasonable conversation to that increasingly hostile environment.

 

I thought you just got sick of the constant rewriting of history.

 

Good to see you.

 

Eh... they're relatively tame over there, compared to the sort of maniacs I deal with on a daily basis in real life.

 

I find the attempts to justify Cadillac as being a more 'legitimate' luxury brand than Lincoln has reached the upper limit of absurdity for me. The XTS and the new MKS are the same freakin' car, yet there are those INSISTING that the XTS is simply a class above, or that it's okay, because a magical Cadillac super sedan will come to be in the next 5-8 years.

 

It's my genuine hope that this new MKZ will bring about a new level of attention to detail for Lincoln. Sweating the small stuff, in other words.

[hbalek]

Here are the two images from the story btw.

 

 

Here compare the teaser pic with a recent spy photo of a prototype. Identical tail lamps! Also not just Aston but compare to recent Audi designs.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/spy-shots-lincoln-mkz/full/#photo-4462592/

Edited December 3, 2011 by hbalek

[Fgts]

Eh... they're relatively tame over there, compared to the sort of maniacs I deal with on a daily basis in real life.

 

I find the attempts to justify Cadillac as being a more 'legitimate' luxury brand than Lincoln has reached the upper limit of absurdity for me. The XTS and the new MKS are the same freakin' car, yet there are those INSISTING that the XTS is simply a class above, or that it's okay, because a magical Cadillac super sedan will come to be in the next 5-8 years.

 

People forget about the 800lb gorilla from Caddy, the redesigned CTS. Will the MKZ compete with the CTS or ATS?.

[FordBuyer]

I think Ford moving the MK Z launch to NAIAS alongside the next Fusion speaks volumes in their confidence

in ridding the "twins" label.

What will the media think about this or will such a difference between these two vehicles be enough to shut them up

and view them separately?

 

I agree. Ford is inviting comparisons at NAIAS by having both there, even if one is a concept car probably very close to finished product. They must be sure both look nothing alike. With so many auto journalists there, good place to show the differences. I know I will be doing my own comparison while there. I believe I will be impressed.

[Boss444]

What do you expect, it's already 4 pages long and that tiny glimpse of the car has been talked to death....

 

People to be able to express their opinion (good or bad) without being attacked.

 

Would these same people be complaining if everyone's comment was gushingly positive? Because you can't really speak either way on the car. Who knows, that whole roof line may be fake. Making negative (not done in this thread) or positive comments are equally pointless.

 

But it is completely understandable why people may have a pessimistic view of Lincoln after seeing the "new" MKS and MKT.

[FordBuyer]

People forget about the 800lb gorilla from Caddy, the redesigned CTS. Will the MKZ compete with the CTS or ATS?.

 

Isn't the new RWD ATS Cadillac's new entry level luxury vehicle? MKZ for now anyway is Lincoln's entry level luxury vehicle. I don't know that Lincoln has any plans to slot anything below it since even new, smaller utility would probably be pricier with new Escape Limited probably approaching lower end MKZ price range.

[akirby]

But it is completely understandable why people may have a pessimistic view of Lincoln after seeing the "new" MKS and MKT.

 

No it's not, because we all know that those designs have nothing whatsoever to do with the new Lincoln design direction.

[RichardJensen]

People to be able to express their opinion (good or bad) without being attacked.

It is not your opinions that offend, it is your repetitiousness that offends.

[Boss444]

No it's not, because we all know that those designs have nothing whatsoever to do with the new Lincoln design direction.

 

Says you. Lincoln seems to think different (based on what they have said).

 

 

It is not your opinions that offend, it is your repetitiousness that offends.

 

Repetition kinda happens on a board where you have multiple threads with common subjects.

[jpd80]

People forget about the 800lb gorilla from Caddy, the redesigned CTS. Will the MKZ compete with the CTS or ATS?.

From what I'm hearing, your 800 lb gorilla is more like a 3800 lb gorilla

[Edstock]

Isn't the new RWD ATS Cadillac's new entry level luxury vehicle? MKZ for now anyway is Lincoln's entry level luxury vehicle. I don't know that Lincoln has any plans to slot anything below it since even new, smaller utility would probably be pricier with new Escape Limited probably approaching lower end MKZ price range.

IMHO, the ATS is going to bleed Cadillac white. It's being touted as a 3-series competitor. I'll bet it's a fine car, too — but it has a Cadillac badge, and as good as the CTS-V is, Cadillac wears the patina of too many years of white-belt golfing. So, it will probably get the "bottom feeder" segment of the 3-series market, and eat away at the market share of the rest, like Lexus and M-B.

 

In Oakville, Ontario, I see a lot of 2-dr M-B, BMW 3-series 2dr, 6-series 2dr, Audi 2-dr (A-5?), ranging from $50-$90K. It's an affluent part of the world, for now: it has Astons in the Timmy's parking lot, even.

 

Sure would like to see a long-wheelbase version of the next Mustang, something like a BMW M-6, with a Lincoln top hat. I may be wrong, but that's the kind of product I'd like to see.

 

 

 

[jpd80]

IMHO, the ATS is going to bleed Cadillac white. It's being touted as a 3-series competitor. I'll bet it's a fine car, too — but it has a Cadillac badge, and as good as the CTS-V is, Cadillac wears the patina of too many years of white-belt golfing. So, it will probably get the "bottom feeder" segment of the 3-series market, and eat away at the market share of the rest, like Lexus and M-B.

 

In Oakville, Ontario, I see a lot of 2-dr M-B, BMW 3-series 2dr, 6-series 2dr, Audi 2-dr (A-5?), ranging from $50-$90K. It's an affluent part of the world, for now: it has Astons in the Timmy's parking lot, even.

 

Sure would like to see a long-wheelbase version of the next Mustang, something like a BMW M-6, with a Lincoln top hat. I may be wrong, but that's the kind of product I'd like to see.

 

 

 

Ed, I keep thinking that GM and Cadillac are both trying too hard to be a this or that fighter rather than concentrating

on their own identity, who or what is Cadillac?

 

If they took a moment to understand the market research and stopped trying to ram RWD sedans down buyer's throats,

they'd realize that using FWD platforms for SRX and XTS is and will be their best plan and IMO CTS could be replaced

by a killer AWD Epsilon product around Malibu size. Just make it FWD/AWD I-4 turbo, V6 and V8 capable.

 

All the billions blown on Sigma and now Alpha, both originally started by Holden could have been rolled into

improving Zeta but no, GM now has three RWD platforms, none of which are really that impressive

especially when you think of all the dollars invested.

 

I hope the new Lincoln MKZ takes the brand to another level but also aware that it needs

great Utilities too like a good "Mariner", MKX, Aviator and Navigator...

Edited December 3, 2011 by jpd80

[papilgee4evaeva]

Ed, I keep thinking that GM and Cadillac are both trying too hard to be a this or that fighter rather than concentrating

on their own identity, who or what is Cadillac?

 

If they took a moment to understand the market research and stopped trying to ram RWD sedans down buyer's throats,

they'd realize that using FWD platforms for SRX and XTS is and will be their best plan and IMO CTS could be replaced

by a killer AWD Epsilon product around Malibu size. Just make it FWD/AWD I-4 turbo, V6 and V8 capable.

All the billions blown on Sigma and now Alpha, both originally started by Holden could have been rolled into

making the Zeta a better mouse trap but no, GM now has three RWD, none of which are that impressive...

So... your preference is that Cadillac become Buick with angles? (again?)

 

Highly doubtful that GM goes FWD V8 again... their two such engines adapted for such duty (Northstar and LS4) are either retired or just haven't been used since forever.

[TomServo92]

Says you. Lincoln seems to think different (based on what they have said).

 

You really don't grasp the concept that marketing people spin things to influence your perceptions do you?

[RichardJensen]

Repetition kinda happens.

 

Your repetition on THIS thread is tiresome. And if you don't like what I do here, leave. It's that simple.

[jpd80]

So... your preference is that Cadillac become Buick with angles? (again?)

 

No, my preference would be for GM to drop Buick and make more room between Chevrolet and Cadillac.

Then use versions of "La Crosse , Regal and Verano to improved Chevrolet and Cadillac line up.

 

In other words, just copy Ford's killing of Mercury...

 

The FWD/AWD V8 is not essential providing GM can develop a turbo V6 that doesn't grenade like their last effort..

 

In other words, just copy Ford and their Ecoboost strategy....

Edited December 4, 2011 by jpd80

[Edstock]

What's next, after the new MK Z? When?

[Ron W.]

I keep thinking that GM and Cadillac are both trying too hard to be a this or that fighter rather than concentrating

on their own identity, who or what is Cadillac?

 

 

Agreed, hope Lincoln doesn't follow that trend.

[sullynd]

I keep thinking that GM and Cadillac are both trying too hard to be a this or that fighter rather than concentrating

on their own identity, who or what is Cadillac?

 

Meet the new GM, same as the old GM.

 

Define yourself by your competition, and you'll never surpass them.

[akirby]

What's next, after the new MK Z? When?

 

MKEscape?

[2b2]

What's next, after the new MK Z? When?

haven't seen anything about what comes after the pre-production Z at NAIAS

except the production Z at NYC

 

but still hoping for an Aviator at Chicago

[BORG]

The Lincoln MKG is the next product in the pipeline, at least it's the only one officially acknowledged by Lincoln executives. The MKG is the Escape-based Lincoln Crossover which will likely be the first car Wolfe has designed from top to bottom.

 

Lincoln has gone on record as targeting specific car brands, I think they said in LA that they wanted "the comfort of a Lexus and the driving experience of a Mercedes"...or something along those lines. Buick has seen tremendous success with the formula that Lincoln is now adopting, platform sharing with unique technologies and design (although Buick has done a better job obscuring it's pedestrian roots and getting all-new top hats). Both brands have Lexus aspirations, largely because it's the only luxury brand in recent memory that has targeted the domestic market exclusively and did so successfully. Lincoln certainly is a notch above Buick, perhaps not in perception but certainly in content and price. It's going to take time and consistent success to at least change attitudes about Lincoln, just one sexy MKZ won't do it if it's perceived as an anomaly. And Lincoln's job is harder than Buick, in that it has to sell more expensive cars while using the same formula.

 

Lincoln is going to be a struggler for at least one more year until the MKZ is on the market, and even then the similarities to the Fusion will haunt the car for many years to come until Lincoln starts showing evidence of its seriousness with the next batch of Crossovers. We are in for MANY more years of kvetching about what Lincoln is doing, but I have a hard time believing the MKZ won't be well-liked no matter how much it shares with a Fusion.

 

Lincoln also has its fair share of eyesores and under-achievers (MKT and Navigator) polluting it's reputation right now... they really need to clean up their neighborhood so people want to live there. I realize Lincoln wants to hold onto some taxpayers, but these products clearly don't fit into their long-term vision anyway so time to demo.

Edited December 4, 2011 by BORG

[RichardJensen]

Lincoln has gone on record as targeting specific car brands, I think they said in LA that they wanted "the comfort of a Lexus and the driving experience of a Mercedes"...or something along those lines.

There's a big difference between saying this:

 

The company also will expand and enhance its Lincoln brand lineup with seven all-new or significantly refreshed vehicles in the next four years as part of an aggressive growth plan focused on standout product design, class-leading technology and new powertrains – all aimed at competing with Cadillac and Lexus in North America.

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=33537

 

and saying this:

 

General Motors product czar Bob Lutz and the corporation’s management team have decided that Buick—closing in on its 100th anniversary in the car-making business on May 19—will become GM’s Lexus-like division. Cadillac is well into a plan to remake itself in the image of BMW and Mercedes-Benz, so the refined Teutonic performance front is covered. But Buick, suggests Lutz, could become the domestic equivalent of Toyota’s luxury brand—at least from a noise, vibration and harshness perspective.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-versus/1373-domestic-lexus-gm-remake-buick-toyota.html

 

One says, "we have competitors, and we are going to compete with them", the other says, "we're going to slavishly copy other companies"

[BORG]

There's a big difference between saying this:

 

 

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=33537

 

and saying this:

 

 

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/cadillac-versus/1373-domestic-lexus-gm-remake-buick-toyota.html

 

One says, "we have competitors, and we are going to compete with them", the other says, "we're going to slavishly copy other companies"

 

Here is Kuzak's exact language from the LA AutoShow debut of the MKS and MKT.

 

"Our vision for Lincoln is simple, world class luxury vehicles and an exceptional consumer experience to match. This includes more investment on standout next generation products, designs that are stunning and understated and uniquely Lincoln inside and out. We're also transforming the Lincoln driving experience to make it more refined and engaging, to deliver the responsiveness of a BMW with the comfort of a Lexus."

 

Essentially, that is their mission statement which you can see here. http://youtu.be/RAL0ElJA8jw?t=2m24s

 

So we get the packaging of a Lincoln but the driving experience of those other cars (combined no-less). This does indeed parallel what Lutz had to say about Buick and Caddy, except Lincoln is targeting both in just one brand.

 

And lets not forget the fact you are quoting GM and Lutz editorially.

Edited December 4, 2011 by BORG

[jpd80]

Here is Kuzak's exact language from the LA AutoShow debut of the MKS and MKT.

 

"Our vision for Lincoln is simple, world class luxury vehicles and an exceptional consumer experience to match. This includes more investment on standout next generation products, designs that are stunning and understated and uniquely Lincoln inside and out. We're also transforming the Lincoln driving experience to make it more refined and engaging, to deliver the responsiveness of a BMW with the comfort of a Lexus."

 

Essentially, that is their mission statement which you can see here. http://youtu.be/RAL0ElJA8jw?t=2m22s

 

So we get the packaging of a Lincoln but the driving experience of those other cars...that's what they are aiming for. So this does line up pretty neatly with what Lutz planned for Buick, almost word for word.

I like the sound of that for Lincoln and sends a message that Ford is serious about changing Lincoln.

 

Just wondering what Kuzak means by, "..designs that are stunning and understated and uniquely Lincoln inside and out.

What exactly is meant by understated, does it mean conservative styling - as in no bold design statements?

 

I'm confused about Buick and Cadillac and where Lincoln sits in relation to the pair of them...

Edited December 4, 2011 by jpd80