akirby Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The new mid-size market may be dead, but that's only because the offerings are old crap. There's no reason to buy new when you can buy a 2005 that's exactly the same as the 2012. The Tacoma is not old crap - why isn't it selling 200K+? Look at trade-in values for Tacoma, Frontier, and Ridgeline; they're retaining 75-85% of their value after 3 years. If buyers didn't want mid-size trucks, the used market would have collapsed. I call BS. Tacoma resale is no better than 55% after 3 years. The used car market for Panthers was huge but that didn't translate to sales of new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 So wifey buys a SUV/CUV and hubby buys a mid-size pickup. Can still pick up the kids from soccer when required. Can go hunting/fishing/hauling wood on weekends without screwing up the interior. Decent MPG's and the ability to fit in his parking space at the office. Obliviously the demand market isn't working that way....so whats your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The Tacoma is not old crap - why isn't it selling 200K+? I call BS. Tacoma resale is no better than 55% after 3 years. The used car market for Panthers was huge but that didn't translate to sales of new ones. Tacoma: semi-boxed frame, old weak inefficient V6, drum brakes, 1990's interior. Not modern. I call BS on your 55% BS: 2008 Tacoma average resale $20,850 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Tacoma: semi-boxed frame, old weak inefficient V6, drum brakes, 1990's interior. Not modern. I call BS on your 55% BS: 2008 Tacoma average resale $20,850 He's right. The Tacoma might be the best that is available right now, but it's still a very mediocre offering at best. It's long in the tooth and many models get terrible fuel economy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 He's right. The Tacoma might be the best that is available right now, but it's still a very mediocre offering at best. It's long in the tooth and many models get terrible fuel economy. OK, then explain why nobody is investing big bucks to make their mid-size trucks the best of the pack? Could it be because the money isn't there? Maybe? If it was such a slam dunk for profits by making the absolute best mid-sizer out there, wouldn't every manufacturer be rushing to do it instead of soldiering along with their current mediocre entry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 SUV/CUV's are more flexible (esp when it comes to family type things) then small/mid-sized pickups. But they are not more flexible than a midsize, four-door truck with a five or six foot bed. I can carry five adults and an ATV in my Sport Trac all at the same time. Can't do that with an SUV/CUV unless you are pulling a small trailer which in itself can be a pain in the arse. And it gets better highway mileage than either of the 4.0L 4x4 SC Rangers I had before it, even though it is a V-8. It can also tow over 6000 lbs which few SUV/CUVs can do and the old Rangers definitely couldn't do. The T6 Wildtrak is essentially the same thing as the last gen Sport Trac but with an extra foot in the bed and a more off-road capable suspension. Perfect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 OK, then explain why nobody is investing big bucks to make their mid-size trucks the best of the pack? IMHO, Ford should be making serious T-6-in-North-America noises, to try to get the competition to move on the segment. Hopefully, GM is committing the millions to produce a Colorado replacement. They should do that, and so should Nissan. Spend lots and lots and lots of money on new mid-size pickups. Lots of money. If the Chevy is first, with a little luck, Nissan will feel obliged, and maybe Toyota will follow. Lots of money. Fully-boxed everything, even. Hell, add a turbo-diesel and an 8-speed and 4x4 to the max. Lots of money. Chevy can bring out a Z-something model, even. Maybe Cadillac? Maybe Max could whip up a mini-Blackwood show car on a T-6, to give the gang at the Tubes a whiz? Then Ford can offer a FWD Focus/low-roof TC pickup with a 1.6 EB and blow 'em all away with the economy and the utility. Meanwhile, Ford can spend what it takes to keep the full-size F-150 the #1. That's my marketing 2¢. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 OK, then explain why nobody is investing big bucks to make their mid-size trucks the best of the pack? Could it be because the money isn't there? Maybe? If it was such a slam dunk for profits by making the absolute best mid-sizer out there, wouldn't every manufacturer be rushing to do it instead of soldiering along with their current mediocre entry? Well, GM has a bottom-up strategy to fix their dated truck lineup with the new Colorado. Good move since it would be very costly to get Silverado up to par with Ecoboost F-150 and then keep pace. If offered with the baby Duramax, it will be wildly popular. Dodge is working on a new unibody Dakota, and their Pentastar V6 has a lot of potential. Possible Jeep pickup in the works for off-road enthusiasts too. Honda has been tight-lipped, but a 2nd gen Ridgeline with direct injection, a 6-speed auto, and VCM is supposed to be released as an early 2013. Toyota will re-engine the Tacoma soon. Nissan is rumored to be considering a down-size of the Frontier to fill the empty compact segment. Ford has a great mid-size, but refuses to let NA customers buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 But they are not more flexible than a midsize, four-door truck with a five or six foot bed. I can carry five adults and an ATV in my Sport Trac all at the same time. Can't do that with an SUV/CUV unless you are pulling a small trailer which in itself can be a pain in the arse. And it gets better highway mileage than either of the 4.0L 4x4 SC Rangers I had before it, even though it is a V-8. It can also tow over 6000 lbs which few SUV/CUVs can do and the old Rangers definitely couldn't do. The T6 Wildtrak is essentially the same thing as the last gen Sport Trac but with an extra foot in the bed and a more off-road capable suspension. Perfect. All depends on what you want to do with it...IMO a pickup bed is useless 95% of the time...so your going to give interior space (that you'll use every day) to have more space in the bed? I understand the advantages of having a truck (borrowed my dad's Ranger quite a few times) but at the sametime, its overkill for 95% of the stuff you need it to do on a day in and day out basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 All depends on what you want to do with it...IMO a pickup bed is useless 95% of the time...so your going to give interior space (that you'll use every day) to have more space in the bed? I understand the advantages of having a truck (borrowed my dad's Ranger quite a few times) but at the sametime, its overkill for 95% of the stuff you need it to do on a day in and day out basis. You can always buy a Ridgeline: it has a bed AND a large trunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well, GM has a bottom-up strategy to fix their dated truck lineup with the new Colorado. Good move since it would be very costly to get Silverado up to par with Ecoboost F-150 and then keep pace. If offered with the baby Duramax, it will be wildly popular. Dodge is working on a new unibody Dakota, and their Pentastar V6 has a lot of potential. Possible Jeep pickup in the works for off-road enthusiasts too. Honda has been tight-lipped, but a 2nd gen Ridgeline with direct injection, a 6-speed auto, and VCM is supposed to be released as an early 2013. Toyota will re-engine the Tacoma soon. Nissan is rumored to be considering a down-size of the Frontier to fill the empty compact segment. Ford has a great mid-size, but refuses to let NA customers buy it. Sounds like GM...start with the smallest, least-important segment and work your way up to the more important ones. You see, Ford started with the most important areas, and will branch out into the less profitable areas when the money is available. That is why I feel we will see something competitive from Ford in the smallererish truck segment in the coming years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 So, if I understand you right, GTWannabe, you're saying that Ford should imitate a less profitable car company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Tacoma: semi-boxed frame, old weak inefficient V6, drum brakes, 1990's interior. Not modern. I call BS on your 55% BS: 2008 Tacoma average resale $20,850 Motor Trend????? Seriously???? Go down to your local Toyota dealer and tell them you want to lease a new Tacoma with a 75% residual. Let me know when they quit laughing. BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 So, if I understand you right, GTWannabe, you're saying that Ford should imitate a less profitable car company? No, I'm saying Ford shouldn't stick their head in the sand like they did circa 1999 when they abandoned the "unprofitable" car segment and put all their effort into cash cow large SUV's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Motor Trend????? Seriously???? Go down to your local Toyota dealer and tell them you want to lease a new Tacoma with a 75% residual. Let me know when they quit laughing. BS. Leasing? Try buying a 3 year old Tacoma for 55% of original price and let me know how that works out. If you find one, it'll be wrapped around a telephone pole. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well, GM has a bottom-up strategy to fix their dated truck lineup with the new Colorado. Good move since it would be very costly to get Silverado up to par with Ecoboost F-150 and then keep pace. If offered with the baby Duramax, it will be wildly popular. A lot of what you say depends on how much GM spends implementing Colorado and the Colorado 7 SUV. They still need to spend quite a bit on Silverado to Match F150 because that is basically their life blood, with out a viable Silverado, GM's NA profitability is out the door... Let's see how well the competition do with their mid sized trucks first before panning Ford, they could be fighting over scraps.... Dodge is working on a new unibody Dakota, and their Pentastar V6 has a lot of potential. Possible Jeep pickup in the works for off-road enthusiasts too. Honda has been tight-lipped, but a 2nd gen Ridgeline with direct injection, a 6-speed auto, and VCM is supposed to be released as an early 2013. Toyota will re-engine the Tacoma soon. Nissan is rumored to be considering a down-size of the Frontier to fill the empty compact segment. Ford has a great mid-size, but refuses to let NA customers buy it. And why is that, could it be they look at top selling Tacoma and notice the bulk of its 100K/year sales are sub $20K units? We can go round and round on this forever but Ford is not introducing the T6, they are aware of competitor's moves but the money saved by not introducing T6 gets used elsewhere throughout the company, mostly on vehicles that have a higher RRP and most definitely a better rate of return, that doesn't mean T6 is banned forever..... I have a feeling that the next 12 months is going to be all about F150, Fusion, Escape, Explorer, Edge, Focus and maybe Taurus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 No, I'm saying Ford shouldn't stick their head in the sand like they did circa 1999 when they abandoned the "unprofitable" car segment and put all their effort into cash cow large SUV's. Your evidence that Ford is 'sticking its head in the sand' consists of their failure to imitate a less profitable car company. The two are inseparable. Please try to construct an argument in favor of the Ranger that doesn't rely on the decisions of GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Leasing? Try buying a 3 year old Tacoma for 55% of original price and let me know how that works out. If you find one, it'll be wrapped around a telephone pole. Do you understand how leasing works? If the residuals were really that high and not a temporary market condition then Toyota would be able to lease you a Tacoma for pennies a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 A lot of what you say depends on how much GM spends implementing Colorado and the Colorado 7 SUV. They still need to spend quite a bit on Silverado to Match F150 because that is basically their life blood, with out a viable Silverado, GM's NA profitability is out the door... Let's see how well the competition do with their mid sized trucks first before panning Ford, they could be fighting over scraps.... And why is that, could it be they look at top selling Tacoma and notice the bulk of its 100K/year sales are sub $20K units? We can go round and round on this forever but Ford is not introducing the T6, they are aware of competitor's moves but the money saved by not introducing T6 gets used elsewhere throughout the company, mostly on vehicles that have a higher RRP and most definitely a better rate of return, that doesn't mean T6 is banned forever..... I have a feeling that the next 12 months is going to be all about F150, Fusion, Escape, Explorer, Edge, Focus and maybe Taurus... GM doing whiz-bang Ecoboost-style changes to the Silverado means scrapping all their pushrod V8's that aren't shared with anything else. Colorado can use Ecotech 4-bangers and turbo motors shared with GM's passenger cars. Plus, most of the development costs are shared with the global market. Toyota artificially limits Tacoma production to keep transaction prices and resale values high. In fact, when Toyota's CA assembly plant threatened to unionize, the company said f*** you! and moved production to a right-to-work state. Pretty impressive they can command those prices given the fact that the Tacoma is technologically similar to a 98 Ford Ranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Toyota artificially limits Tacoma production to keep transaction prices and resale values high. In fact, when Toyota's CA assembly plant threatened to unionize, the company said f*** you! and moved production to a right-to-work state. Pretty impressive they can command those prices given the fact that the Tacoma is technologically similar to a 98 Ford Ranger. If everyone wants a mid-sized truck, why does Toyota have to artificially limit Tacoma production to keep transaction prices high? You just keep contradicting yourself with your statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) GM doing whiz-bang Ecoboost-style changes to the Silverado means scrapping all their pushrod V8's that aren't shared with anything else. Colorado can use Ecotech 4-bangers and turbo motors shared with GM's passenger cars. Plus, most of the development costs are shared with the global market. It's less about what GM can do and more about what their buyers want, if GM wants their Silverado to be viable and attractive to buyers then they are going to have to bite the bullet and spend the cash. Yes Colorado may work, it may bring in 100,000 sales a year but how does that compare with Silverado's annual sales and income, surely GM must look after its life blood too. Toyota artificially limits Tacoma production to keep transaction prices and resale values high. Ford is artificially limiting the sales of Ranger (to zero) to boost sales in other areas with product that has higher transaction prices. This is hard for fans as Mulally has cut Ford to the bone to squeeze profit at every turn, mostly at the cost of long term favorite products. Ford fans have seen a lot of changes but it's the way Ford turns itself around, I hope T6 comes at the MCE as will be a better truck by then. Edited January 17, 2012 by jpd80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If everyone wants a mid-sized truck, why does Toyota have to artificially limit Tacoma production to keep transaction prices high? You just keep contradicting yourself with your statements. Because Toyota stupidly entered the full-size market with Tundra and it's not selling anywhere near the volume it was supposed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Because Toyota stupidly entered the full-size market with Tundra and it's not selling anywhere near the volume it was supposed to. Huh? :confused: Let me try it this way: If the demand is so high for small trucks, and there are not enough good choices out there, why would Toyota need to artificially limit demand for the Tacoma to keep prices high? Shouldn't they be able to sell every one they can make at a high price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Toyota artificially limits Tacoma production to keep transaction prices and resale values high. Local dealer has over 50 in stock. Doesn't sound artificially limited to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Local dealer has over 50 in stock. Doesn't sound artificially limited to me. Especially with those 75% residuals! Like Bugs says, "What a maroon!" Edited January 17, 2012 by Edstock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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