FordBuyer Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Explain why CTS dropped 40% and how that's a good thing for Cadillac. A bigger question is how Cadillac sales were up 14% overall with CTS sales being down a whopping 40%. Must have been good sales for new XTS as ATS sales were below my "magical" 2,000 number. Cadillac could certainly use a small SUV/CUV to go along with the SRX as Lincoln needed one yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 A bigger question is how Cadillac sales were up 14% overall with CTS sales being down a whopping 40%. Must have been good sales for new XTS as ATS sales were below my "magical" 2,000 number. Cadillac could certainly use a small SUV/CUV to go along with the SRX as Lincoln needed one yesterday. They're up because of 2 new vehicles they didn't have last year. But don't you agree that such a drop in CTS sales is troubling? If CTS buyers are simply moving to XTS and ATS then that's not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 They're up because of 2 new vehicles they didn't have last year. But don't you agree that such a drop in CTS sales is troubling? If CTS buyers are simply moving to XTS and ATS then that's not good. Like someone mentioned, new models (ATS, XTS) plus wind-down of an old model (CTS, will be new for '14). I'd bet that the ATS/XTS isn't eating as many CTS sales as one might believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 They're up because of 2 new vehicles they didn't have last year. But don't you agree that such a drop in CTS sales is troubling? If CTS buyers are simply moving to XTS and ATS then that's not good. Anytime a vehicle or brand drops double digits it's troubling just like Lincoln sales down 15% for October. What's up with that? Lincoln dealers around me are still choked with MKZ's on lot. GM did state that it thought ATS and XTS would take sales away from CTS, but I don't think they thought it would be this bad, or maybe as as said this is last year for CTS and buyers are moving on. Who knows for sure. Cadillac is not getting a big enough bang for the bucks they spent and Lincoln is falling off the map to where it barely sells better than $100,000+ Porsche. Next year he new, small CUV Macan will be out, probably even before Lincoln can get its small CUV out, and never thought Porsche would ever pass Lincoln in sales. What a frickin mess Lincoln has become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 with Lincoln falling further behind ...and heading ever closer toward oblivion. How tenable is Ford's latest experiment with this increasingly irrelevant nameplate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 ...and heading ever closer toward oblivion. How tenable is Ford's latest experiment with this increasingly irrelevant nameplate? It's really starting to look like Ford waited too long to turn the brand around, and the effort is too tepid product wise with little dribbles and minimal investment made on the product side. Many including me still don't know what Lincoln is or wants to be. I sure hope they can somehow save it, but dropping 15% this past month is very ominmous sign. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 This is dumb. Lincoln has no 2013 MKZs to sell. That's ZERO current model year vehicles of their MOST POPULAR MODEL. Are we done here? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) So what were ATS sales in October as GM bragged that Cadillac sales were up double digits and ATS sales were good. Meanwhille, Lincoln sales barely got by 5.000 for month, probably a new low. At the moment, Lincoln is not really a consequence to Ford's bottom line either way but here's some numbers to remember from Ford North America Q3 Results: Revenue = $19.5 Billion Pre-Tax Profit = 2.3 Billion Vehicles sold = 629,000 Average transaction price of all vehicles to dealers and fleets = +$31,000 per vehicle Average pre-tax profit of all vehicles to dealers and fleets = +$3,600 per vehicle And here's GM NA's results Revenue = $21.9 Billion Pre-Tax Profit = 1.8 Billion Vehicles sold = 740,000 Average transaction price of all vehicles to dealers and fleets = +$29,594 per vehicle Average pre-tax profit of all vehicles to dealers and fleets = +$2,400 per vehicle Admittedly, that's after all operational and development costs but I guarantee that GM NA's figures in return of Average sale prices to dealers, profit per vehicle and ROI in general would be less than Ford NA. So taking that into account, all the Hoopla around new products Cadillac and Buick doesn't help GM surpass Ford brand or lowly Lincoln. Edited November 2, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 At the moment, Lincoln is not really a consequence to Ford's bottom line either way but here's some numbers to remember from Ford North America Q3 Results: Revenue = $19.5 Billion Pre-Tax Profit = 2.3 Billion Vehicles sold = 629,000 Average transaction price of all vehicles to dealers and fleets = +$31,000 per vehicle Average pre-tax profit of all vehicles to dealers and fleets = +$3,600 per vehicle And here's GM NA's results Revenue = $21.9 Billion Pre-Tax Profit = 1.8 Billion Vehicles sold = 740,000 Average transaction price of all vehicles to dealers and fleets = +$29,594 per vehicle Average pre-tax profit of all vehicles to dealers and fleets = +$2,400 per vehicle Admittedly, that's after all operational and development costs but I guarantee that GM NA's figures in return of Average sale prices to dealers, profit per vehicle and ROI in general would be less than Ford NA. So taking that into account, all the Hoopla around new products Cadillac and Buick doesn't help GM surpass Ford brand or lowly Lincoln. You might as well be describing the theory of relativity to a first grader. He doesn't understand simple concepts like profit, loss, cost and overhead. He still thinks GM was well managed and was just unlucky while Ford was luckier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 He also doesn't understand that the first product in Lincolns overhaul hasn't even hit the market yet. He would be one of the New Yorkers that is all pissed off because everything isn't back to normal in the city, in 4 days. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I test drove the C-ATS and the dealership didn't have much of the higher end models, they had the 2.5L and 2.0L, they didn't even get the V6 version yet. Funny how some of those lower end models where hitting mid $40s though and weren't too heavily loaded... and everything in that Caddilac dealership had orange peel, well more like hammered steel paint finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Acura had a surprising month just behind Cadillac. Must be that station wagon Acura is doing. You mean the ZDX, which they just cancelled? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHV 16V Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 You mean the ZDX, which they just cancelled? LOL, either that or the TSX wagon, those are the only two options. And actually, I would lean more towards the ZDX being classified as a CUV. (Which of course are all tall wagons in a sense, but hey...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 LOL, either that or the TSX wagon, those are the only two options. And actually, I would lean more towards the ZDX being classified as a CUV. (Which of course are all tall wagons in a sense, but hey...) I think I can count how many TSX wagons I've seen on one finger. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I think I can count how many TSX wagons I've seen on one finger. Sales of the Acura TSX Wagon in the U.S. last month totaled 392 units, or approximately one quarter of all TSX sales in that period. The big factor in Acura's improved sales numbers overall was the success of the redesigned RDX: 2,659 units last month - up 63% over October 2011. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHV 16V Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I think I can count how many TSX wagons I've seen on one finger. Wow what a coincidence! That's precisely 1 more than I've seen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Wow what a coincidence! That's precisely 1 more than I've seen! As you guys like to state, as long as company is making a profit on unit who cares how low sales go. On that note, I wonder at what low point will Lincoln sales have to go to before prospective customers start to question investment in Lincoln vehicle if they start to worry that Ford will pull the plug with such low sales. I would say Lincoln sales are flirting with that number now. Even the remaining Lincoln stores will have to question their investment. I don't see new MKZ helping much since present one is their best selling nameplate, and doubt if sales will go much past 3,000/month, especially with higher sticker price and less incentives. It will take MKEscape to move the sales needle for Lincoln. Fancy dealerships and service is nice, but doesn't mean much without great product. Mabye the dealers know more about future product, but so far Ford is not revealing anything and IMO this strategy is making it hard for anyone to consider buying a Lincoln. Even if I loved the new MKZ and had no trouble investing $50,000 into one, I would look elsewhere until I know Lincoln is viable long term. Ford can talk all it wants, but so far no tangible proof as far as product goes. Maybe Ford will show much more this auto show season. IMO, it really has to start showing the public where it's taking Lincoln. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I would have no problem buying a Lincoln, because I can see further than this month. I can see the longterm investment that Ford is making in the entire brand. You don't make that kind of investment, then say "wow, we didn't sell many of the new product that we haven't even come out with yet, this month, so lets pull the plug." In other words, they are not you. CTS sales have tanked. Your excuse is it is old, but it still has to soldier on for another year or so. MKZ sales aren't doing great, and the new one will be selling within a month or so....................... yet, it is indicative of a completely failed nameplate. Hypocrite much?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I would have no problem buying a Lincoln, because I can see further than this month. I can see the longterm investment that Ford is making in the entire brand. You don't make that kind of investment, then say "wow, we didn't sell many of the new product that we haven't even come out with yet, this month, so lets pull the plug." In other words, they are not you. CTS sales have tanked. Your excuse is it is old, but it still has to soldier on for another year or so. MKZ sales aren't doing great, and the new one will be selling within a month or so....................... yet, it is indicative of a completely failed nameplate. Hypocrite much?? Uh, the MKZ has done great and month in and month out is Lincoln's best seller by wide margin. So how is new one supposed to increase significanlty on that. MKS and MKT are the laggards. And both were just updated. Most every month MKZ has been over 3.000/month making up 50% of total Lincoln sales. Cadillac sales were up 14% even with CTS struggling. And yeah, CTS sales down that much is disappointing, and keep Cadillac as second tier luxury brand, but at least at top of tier and not at bottom with Lincoln. Hopefully Lincoln will turn it around, but sales are still going down, and new MKZ is not the answer. AGAIN, we will have to wait and see what Ford reveals at upcoming auto show season. So far giant question mark. Advertising is abysmal with every now and then two year old John Slattery commerical running around in MKZ or MKX about it. That is fricking sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Uh, the MKZ has done great and month in and month out is Lincoln's best seller by wide margin. So how is new one supposed to increase significanlty on that. Your definition of "great" sure is strange. Being their best-selling model doesn't mean it is selling "great". Does the Suzuki Kizashi sell "great" too? The 2013 MKZ is a considerable improvement over the current model. A considerable improvement in its sales should also be expected. If it doesn't turn out that way, then, yes, Lincoln is in trouble. But to call the brand failed now before any of the new vehicles are even launched is, shall we say, premature? But that's nothing new. You've been blabbering on about the lack of sales of Lincolns in Metro Detroit for the better part of a year now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) As you guys like to state, as long as company is making a profit on unit who cares how low sales go. On that note, I wonder at what low point will Lincoln sales have to go to before prospective customers start to question investment in Lincoln vehicle if they start to worry that Ford will pull the plug with such low sales. I would say Lincoln sales are flirting with that number now. Last month, 5,000 people who actually bought a Lincoln disagree with you and.I bet that that Ford's ROI in Lincoln pays back long before Cadillac's new products begin turning positive. Edited November 2, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 So how is new one supposed to increase significanlty on that. Kind of simple, even a Porsche slappy like you should be able to figure it out, lol. The new one 1) looks better and 2) has more features. This gets more people visiting the dealerships and buying. Capisce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Kind of simple, even a Porsche slappy like you should be able to figure it out, lol. The new one 1) looks better and 2) has more features. This gets more people visiting the dealerships and buying. Capisce? Waste of time ED,FB is convinced that this Lincoln plan will fail like all the rest... Lincoln's current returns are pennys on dollars to Fords success but Cadillac owes GM big time for the huge investments in new products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 IMHO, in a way, this is the the first serious plan to exist for Lincoln, because Mercury is gone, along with its dealerships. At the least, it means that Ford management can put a "focus" on Lincoln like never before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Lincoln needs the Escape/Explorer based vehicles to get the sales numbers up and the new MKX/Navigator - that is what is selling in the market. Once you get those SUV's out, the new MKZ and MKS sales shouldn't be that bad and will really start changing Lincoln perception in the market, if the style is done right. Look at the GL -- it outsells the S-Class 2/1 in the market now, that says volumes of what the market thinks of big sedans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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