Ford reported to either kill Lincoln or make Lincoln Stang

[akirby]

The arguments about the program stealing resources and what-not are complete bunk, as Ford wouldn't risk anything from a volume-seller for a niche vehicle.

 

Again...I can't begin to understand the opposition.

 

Every dollar that Ford spends on a vehicle or platform is a dollar that it can't spend on something else. And there are ALWAYS more projects on the list than Ford has resources (people, facilities and cash). If you add a new platform or vehicle then something else has to come off the list. Could be a new hybrid or a new truck or something else totally unrelated. But when you have X resources and they are 100% utilized you can't add something without dropping something else. That's just how businesses and budgets work.

 

The opposition is about whether Lincoln should be spending that money and resources NOW. If they spend too much money on low volume low profit ventures instead of investing in higher volume higher profit vehicles then they won't be able to sustain themselves long term. And if they don't make a decent profit they won't be around. It's that simple. It's called survival.

[Hugh]

Every dollar that Ford spends on a vehicle or platform is a dollar that it can't spend on something else. And there are ALWAYS more projects on the list than Ford has resources (people, facilities and cash). If you add a new platform or vehicle then something else has to come off the list. Could be a new hybrid or a new truck or something else totally unrelated. But when you have X resources and they are 100% utilized you can't add something without dropping something else. That's just how businesses and budgets work.

 

The opposition is about whether Lincoln should be spending that money and resources NOW. If they spend too much money on low volume low profit ventures instead of investing in higher volume higher profit vehicles then they won't be able to sustain themselves long term. And if they don't make a decent profit they won't be around. It's that simple. It's called survival.

The reply and edit has been wonky on me. I agree with what your saying on where the money has to go. Besides, IIRC there's a big RWD project on now at Ford. Something about a 'World Car' for 2014.5-15...

Edited January 9, 2013 by Hugh

[duncan36]

First off Ford has things all wrong with Lincoln. The technology shouldnt be flowing from Ford to Lincoln, if Lincoln truly is a premium brand it should be flowing from Lincoln to Ford. The best engineers in the company should be working for Lincoln, definitely too much bean counter involvement that has reversed the just flow. Second dont follow Cadillac's path and try to copy the Germans. The ATS is an absolute disaster in the marketplace. What Lincoln needs is a totally homegrown flagship car designed by Americans for Americans, a car that is designed for American roads and driving conditions. A big stylish, powerful, American car with presence like the old days but not a throwback, truly modern. If Car and Driver doesnt like it because it doesnt drive like a Porsche 911 too bad. Then if Lincoln or Ford wants to build a car or suv off the platform let them start from scratch on the platform and have at it.

Edited January 8, 2013 by duncan36

[akirby]

First off Ford has things all wrong with Lincoln. The technology shouldnt be flowing from Ford to Lincoln, if Lincoln truly is a premium brand it should be flowing from Lincoln to Ford. The best engineers in the company should be working for Lincoln, definitely too much bean counter involvement that has reversed the just flow. Second dont follow Cadillac's path and try to copy the Germans. The ATS is an absolute disaster in the marketplace. What Lincoln needs is a totally homegrown flagship car designed by Americans for Americans, a car that is designed for American roads and driving conditions. A big stylish, powerful, American car with presence like the old days but not a throwback, truly modern. If Car and Driver doesnt like it because it doesnt drive like a Porsche 911 too bad. Then if Ford wants to build a car or suv off the platform let them start from scratch on the platform and have at it.

 

Lincoln Ride Control? Push button shifter? Retractable sedan roof? THX audio? Which Ford did these come from?

[papilgee4evaeva]

Lincoln Ride Control? Push button shifter? Retractable sedan roof? THX audio? Which Ford did these come from?

Add the D37 and Bridge of Weir leather. I want to say adaptive cruise control, but I'm not 100% certain.

[duncan36]

Lincoln Ride Control? Push button shifter? Retractable sedan roof? THX audio? Which Ford did these come from?

 

You kind of proved my point. Lincoln is a glorified options designer not a vehicle designer. No wonder their vehicles arent selling.

[SoonerLS]

Add the D37 and Bridge of Weir leather. I want to say adaptive cruise control, but I'm not 100% certain.

I'm almost certain that the adaptive cruise was introduced on the MKS, and I think adaptive headlights were, as well. Heated and cooled seats are also Lincoln exclusives.

[papilgee4evaeva]

I'm almost certain that the adaptive cruise was introduced on the MKS, and I think adaptive headlights were, as well. Heated and cooled seats are also Lincoln exclusives.

Thanks for that. Forgot about the last two.

 

You kind of proved my point. Lincoln is a glorified options designer not a vehicle designer. No wonder their vehicles arent selling.

ALL luxury vehicles are such because of their interior options. Not because of anything remotely mechanical.

[duncan36]

Thanks for that. Forgot about the last two.

 

ALL luxury vehicles are such because of their interior options. Not because of anything remotely mechanical.

 

I dont deny that luxury options are part of the package but recycling Ford platforms simply isnt cutting it for Lincoln(look at their sales). Even Lexus has stopped the practice putting the ES on a Lexus specific platform instead of a Camry platform.

Edited January 8, 2013 by duncan36

[SoonerLS]

Even Lexus has stopped the practice putting the ES on a Lexus specific platform instead of a Camry platform.

Yeah, they traded the Camry platform for the Avalon platform. Whoop-te-freakin'-do; they're still sharing platforms with "lesser" marques. Just. Like. Lincoln.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Yeah, they traded the Camry platform for the Avalon platform. Whoop-te-freakin'-do; they're still sharing platforms with "lesser" marques. Just. Like. Lincoln.

^ This.

Edited January 8, 2013 by papilgee4evaeva

[Hugh]

I dont deny that luxury options are part of the package but recycling Ford platforms simply isnt cutting it for Lincoln(look at their sales). Even Lexus has stopped the practice putting the ES on a Lexus specific platform instead of a Camry platform.

^ above...

 

Edited January 9, 2013 by Hugh

[akirby]

I'm almost certain that the adaptive cruise was introduced on the MKS, and I think adaptive headlights were, as well. Heated and cooled seats are also Lincoln exclusives.

 

Adaptive LED headlights no doubt. Heated and cooled seats debuted in the LS and Aviator and Navigator way back in 2003 or sooner but they are now offered in several Ford models as well. Which I guess fits the "developed for Lincoln and passed down to Ford" definition.

 

Add the D37 and Bridge of Weir leather. I want to say adaptive cruise control, but I'm not 100% certain.

 

The D37 is used in the F150 and Mustang. Same for adaptive cruise (Fusion and Taurus I believe). Although they may have debuted in a Lincoln first. The timing was close.

 

You kind of proved my point. Lincoln is a glorified options designer not a vehicle designer. No wonder their vehicles arent selling.

 

You said technology, not platforms. Those features require technical engineering.

 

I dont deny that luxury options are part of the package but recycling Ford platforms simply isnt cutting it for Lincoln(look at their sales). Even Lexus has stopped the practice putting the ES on a Lexus specific platform instead of a Camry platform.

 

The ES now uses the Avalon platform. Try again.

[ZanatWork]

Spending NOW means rolling in 2-3 years, and a dynamic turnaround requires dynamics beyond covering a car in speakers and showing off the glass roof in commercials. Ecoboosted Lincolns didn't stop the fall, sedans and crossovers failed to stop the fall.

These are facts.

Are both of the above the bread-and-butter? Yep.. They have to be successful, but if you want a "why build a specialty car" I answer with Ford's GT. The company was bleeding money, the product revival was still over the horizon, but they made an excellent supercar as a statement of being still viable, and having the attitude to make a major rolling statement. It kept Ford in the news (admittedly, so did its early problems), and showed a face to the public beyond rental Tauruses.

That's about as perfect an example of "why" as you'll find. Lincoln is barely outselling the Mustang. Simply fortifying the volume sellers FAILED. The whole "brand reinvention" will fall dead if something genuinely new doesn't come of it...something Lincoln hasn't done in recent years.

The MKC is, hopefully, a step in the right direction...but years of people calling for a true Town Car successor and something with rwd along with some attitude can't be ignored. The years with insufficient spark to the brand and its wares caused the problem.

Resources not spent toward progress are wasted, regardless which "MK-" they're spent on.

Every dollar that Ford spends on a vehicle or platform is a dollar that it can't spend on something else. And there are ALWAYS more projects on the list than Ford has resources (people, facilities and cash). If you add a new platform or vehicle then something else has to come off the list. Could be a new hybrid or a new truck or something else totally unrelated. But when you have X resources and they are 100% utilized you can't add something without dropping something else. That's just how businesses and budgets work.

 

The opposition is about whether Lincoln should be spending that money and resources NOW. If they spend too much money on low volume low profit ventures instead of investing in higher volume higher profit vehicles then they won't be able to sustain themselves long term. And if they don't make a decent profit they won't be around. It's that simple. It's called survival.

[papilgee4evaeva]

The D37 is used in the F150 and Mustang. Same for adaptive cruise (Fusion and Taurus I believe). Although they may have debuted in a Lincoln first. The timing was close.

MKS and MKT definitely had the D37 before F150 and Mustang.

 

... and so did Mazda...

[jpd80]

So much BS and gussied up opinions being presented as fact, I'll let Lincoln's numbers speak for themselves.

Except for discontinued Town Car, all other Lincoln vehicles actually improved sales year on year.

 

Lincoln 2012 sales:

:

MKZ 28,053 (27,529) +1.9%

 

MKS 12,524 (12,217) +2.5%

 

MKX 25,107 (23,395) +7.3%

 

Navigator 8,371 (8,018) +4.4%

 

MKT 7,094 (5,024) +41.2%

 

Town Car 1,001 (9,460) -89.4

 

Lincoln Total : 82,150 (85,643) -4.1

[RichardJensen]

Simply fortifying the volume sellers FAILED. The whole "brand reinvention" will fall dead if something genuinely new doesn't come of it.

 

The second sentence does not follow logically from the first, and the first is poorly supported.

[duncan36]

Adaptive LED headlights no doubt. Heated and cooled seats debuted in the LS and Aviator and Navigator way back in 2003 or sooner but they are now offered in several Ford models as well. Which I guess fits the "developed for Lincoln and passed down to Ford" definition.

 

 

The D37 is used in the F150 and Mustang. Same for adaptive cruise (Fusion and Taurus I believe). Although they may have debuted in a Lincoln first. The timing was close.

 

 

You said technology, not platforms. Those features require technical engineering.

 

 

The ES now uses the Avalon platform. Try again.

Glad to be wrong the ES is a prissy, ugly, POS. Why is Ford mimicing Toyota by using Ford platforms for their luxury marque? I think I know the reason, the accountants have weaseled their way to the top of the company and are sapping the life out of it

[fordmantpw]

Glad to be wrong the ES is a prissy, ugly, POS.

 

So, when the ES supports your opinion, it is OK, but when it doesn't, it's a POS?

[duncan36]

So, when the ES supports your opinion, it is OK, but when it doesn't, it's a POS?

 

No you misunderstood me I never liked the ES. Worst kind of Jap crap rolling down the road.

[akirby]

Why is Ford mimicing Toyota by using Ford platforms for their luxury marque?

 

What they're doing NOW isn't necessarily what they'll be doing in 5 years. And I assume you have not looked at the Lexus ES and RX sales volumes compared to the RWD models.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Glad to be wrong the ES is a prissy, ugly, POS. Why is Ford mimicing Toyota by using Ford platforms for their luxury marque? I think I know the reason, the accountants have weaseled their way to the top of the company and are sapping the life out of it

Lincoln moved the Continental to the Taurus platform a year before the ES debuted. Prior to that, the Continental and Mark VII were Fox-bodies alongside the LTD and the Thunderbird. Prior to that, they were both Panthers.

 

Looks like Toyota may have mimicked Ford here.

[fordmantpw]

No you misunderstood me I never liked the ES. Worst kind of Jap crap rolling down the road.

 

Oh, I'm sorry, I took this:

 

 

"Even Lexus has stopped the practice putting the ES on a Lexus specific platform instead of a Camry platform."

As being a good thing.

[duncan36]

Lincoln moved the Continental to the Taurus platform a year before the ES debuted. Prior to that, the Continental and Mark VII were Fox-bodies alongside the LTD and the Thunderbird. Prior to that, they were both Panthers.

 

Looks like Toyota may have mimicked Ford here.

 

I dont necessarily have a problem with Fords and Lincolns having the same platform. I just believe that the platforms a luxury marque like Lincoln uses should originate with Lincoln and then migrate to Ford. As God intented. I'm willing to bet all the best Lincoln models over the years were developed this way. And no I dont classify any of the Fox or Panther Lincolns as being worthy of that title.

Edited January 8, 2013 by duncan36

[fordmantpw]

I just believe that the platforms a luxury marque like Lincoln uses should originate with Lincoln and then migrate to Ford. As God intented. I'm willing to bet all the best Lincoln models over the years were developed this way. And no I dont classify any of the Fox or Panther Lincolns as being worthy of that title.

 

So, in effect, Lincoln would NEVER make any money. Or does Ford "buy" the out-of-date platform from Lincoln when Lincoln is finished with it?

 

Really, what difference does it make if the platform starts at Ford or Lincoln. You can't have Ford languish behind because it is waiting on Lincoln to be "finished" with the platform so that Ford can use it. Seriously, Ford keeps the company afloat, with Lincoln being icing on the cake, not the other way around. But, if Lincoln can't hold its own (which it would NOT if it had to develop it's own platforms), it will be gone.