duncan36 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 And if Ford/Lincoln was to use "keeping up with" as their game plan, they'd fail from the get go. I don't think Lincoln should be chasing the Cadillac/BMW crowd like the so called auto experts think. Lincoln needs to come up with vehicles that are different not only from Fords, but from everyone else. I like the idea that they aren't shooting for higher end of luxury. I think affordable luxury is where they'll make the most return on investment short term. If that works out, then start working upward. You have to start the ladder at the first rung. Not trying to leap to the fourth rung. You'll just fall on your face... Exactly. Lincoln needs to build American cars for Americans first. GM is and will continue to prove its a giant mistake to outright copy the Japanese and Germans. The ES clone Buick Lacrosse is floundering and the BMW 3 clone Cadillac ATS is floundering. Why on earth would people want Lincoln to go down that path of eventual defeat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 So, you've interviewed all those owners and drivers of those "vanity" vehicles? You've asked their opinions on drive wheels?Richard is famously demanding opinions be backed up, you know!So...let's see the data, the links, the interview text... ok, I'll go out on a limb here, I dont beleive when buying a vehicle people basically give a RATS A$$ about which end propells the vehicle, more important are looks and the image the vehicle projects....and thats a MAJOR reason German vehicles take up a majority of your list,,,,out and out VANITY, nothing more, nothing less....only a minute % are worried about ultimate dynamics...actually, thats not a limb, thats based on witnessing the publics buying practices for over 25 years...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havelock Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 So, you've interviewed all those owners and drivers of those "vanity" vehicles? You've asked their opinions on drive wheels? Richard is famously demanding opinions be backed up, you know! So...let's see the data, the links, the interview text... BMW stated most of their buyers do not know which wheels drive the car as the reason they will offer fwd vehicles in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 BMW stated most of their buyers do not know which wheels drive the car as the reason they will offer fwd vehicles in the near future. 80% of BMW 1-series buyers thought their vehicle was FWD. That pretty much sums it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 80% of BMW 1-series buyers thought their vehicle was FWD. That pretty much sums it up. And if a link is demanded: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1043671_80-percent-of-bmw-1-series-owners-think-their-car-is-front-wheel-drive http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motoring/1-series-owners-think-its-fwd http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/03/24/bmw-survery-reveals-1-series-owners-think-its-fwd/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) So, you've interviewed all those owners and drivers of those "vanity" vehicles? You've asked their opinions on drive wheels? Richard is famously demanding opinions be backed up, you know! So...let's see the data, the links, the interview text... EXHIBIT A) 90 % of 3 series BMW's are leased, predominantly female gender, pre-reqisites are bleached blonde hair, false boobs and a surgically attached "smart" phone.....think they are worried about front and rear wheel drive. B) Audis top seller 4 series C) Lexus rx300, their biggest seller D) Ford focus...worlds #? seller E) Ford Explorer segment leader, F) Edge segment leader.....who needs to interveiw, get back to me when you have been in the sales side o the industry and figure out peoples "hot buttons".....if you have any experience in the Auto industry, specifically sales, then I will grant you an apology.......here, at least in So Cal ( which by the way is one of the countries LARGEST car markets ) its ALL about looks and image, NOTHING about front / rear or AWD barring true diehard enthusiasts.... Edited January 10, 2013 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Zan, before we get into a diatribe that will switch others off, let me clarify my point. Im a RWD guy myself, but being involved in this market foa as long as I have, its blatantly obvious to me the so called "importance" of RWD vs FWD is highly over-rated... and really only an issue for die-hard RWD proponents...and thats really a trivial %. Would Lincoln improve their market by releasing a RWD platform?.....possibly, but in reality RWD platforms are only superior when the Horsepower gos up, and even then, AWD may be even better in that circumstance. That said , theres NO doubt in my mind RWD is coming..to Lincoln AND Ford... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 BMW stated most of their buyers do not know which wheels drive the car as the reason they will offer fwd vehicles in the near future. but they sure know that symbol up front........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Richard is famously demanding opinions be backed up, you know! Dean's words: "I dont beleive when buying a vehicle" Operative words in bold. Dean is not asserting a fact, he's giving you his opinion. Understand the difference between *opinions* and *facts*. Understand also the difference between a statement like "most reviewers dismiss the MKZ" which is a statement of fact which should be supported by evidence and "I think most reviewers dislike the MKZ because of ____" which is an opinion--and generally immune to challenges regarding its veracity. Edited January 10, 2013 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Why couldn't Ford do all three for Lincoln: 1. MKC - Escape based Utility 2. MKE - C-Max based hybrid 3. MKR - Mustang based Coupe Each of the above vehicles could start at $36,K and deliver valuable incremental sales to Ford production whilst completely changing the image of Lincoln. Today's game is less about "big vehicles" and more about maximizing Compact and mid sized sales and filling the range with product in that $35K-$45K area. I know that risks turning Lincoln into a glorified version of Mercury but hey, there's lots worse fates and it would add lost of valuable trade through Lincoln dealerships... Edited January 10, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Dean's words: "I dont beleive when buying a vehicle" Operative words in bold. Dean is not asserting a fact, he's giving you his opinion. Understand the difference between *opinions* and *facts*. Understand also the difference between a statement like "most reviewers dismiss the MKZ" which is a statement of fact which should be supported by evidence and "I think most reviewers dislike the MKZ because of ____" which is an opinion--and generally immune to challenges regarding its veracity. Rich, based on what I hear ( but I can lease a BMW for..... ) and witness, I would be semi inclined to go back and edit out the "I beleive " part...I swear, if its got 4 rings, a pseudo propeller, Chicken Foot etc etc, free passes of excellence seem to be given irrespective of drive wheels, you put a Front wheel drive powertrain with the correct ( ? ) all important badge up front they would STILL sell in similar numbers, make them cheaper they would sell even more.....1/2 of those sales are pure ego massaging... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Rich, based on what I hear ( but I can lease a BMW for..... ) and witness, I would be semi inclined to go back and edit out the "I beleive " part...I swear, if its got 4 rings, a pseudo propeller, Chicken Foot etc etc, free passes of excellence seem to be given irrespective of drive wheels, you put a Front wheel drive powertrain with the correct ( ? ) all important badge up front they would STILL sell in similar numbers, make them cheaper they would sell even more.....1/2 of those sales are pure ego massaging... That doesn't bode well for Cadillac and its pseudo 3-series car... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 That doesn't bode well for Cadillac and its pseudo 3-series car... welcome to lease programs....must admit, I see them all the time now...GOOD looking car..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Saw an A6, a brand new A6, the other day. One of its little "Look at me! I'm an A6" lights was burned out. I don't think people would put up with that kind of poor quality from a Lincoln. So you've got that hill to climb too. Not only does Lincoln have to provide the features of Audi, those features also have to work. Edited January 10, 2013 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I see no reason why the chassis on the 2015 Mustang cant be flexible, in which case RWD be a comin.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 The challenge is how you maintain the necessary proportions of the Mustang, while supporting other and larger vehicles. Packaging the rear seats/fuel tank/rear suspension is one significant challenge, creating a safety cage that does not need significant alteration to support a higher roofed sedan is another. The front subframe, suspension firewall, engine bay, and some of the floorpan may be transferable. Some of the wiring harnesses may be transferable. But attempting to create something that is both sedan and coupe? Well, your coupe will be the Camaro or the Challenger. And who wants either of those instead of the Mustang? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 sidebar, latest I received....hmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 The challenge is how you maintain the necessary proportions of the Mustang, while supporting other and larger vehicles. Packaging the rear seats/fuel tank/rear suspension is one significant challenge, creating a safety cage that does not need significant alteration to support a higher roofed sedan is another. The front subframe, suspension firewall, engine bay, and some of the floorpan may be transferable. Some of the wiring harnesses may be transferable. But attempting to create something that is both sedan and coupe? Well, your coupe will be the Camaro or the Challenger. And who wants either of those instead of the Mustang? agreed, but if that control blade is anything to go for its beautiful in its simplicity and trivial weight penalty....a chassis with various wheelbases ( and i dont know the SLIGHTEST about how much that entails ) may be a simplistic outlook...but gets my thought process's ramping up....Im not sure a Hi Po Lincoln is the right move right now, and I applaud them focusing on the Meat and Potatoes first with the new Z. Ive said it before and I will say it again, I have high hopes for Lincoln, I truly beleive they are on the right track, its just some lack patience.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) So, you've interviewed all those owners and drivers of those "vanity" vehicles? You've asked their opinions on drive wheels? Richard is famously demanding opinions be backed up, you know! So...let's see the data, the links, the interview text... actually, come to think of it yes, my ex wife and every single one of her business compatriates that worked for New Century mortgage that wouldnt be seem in anything other than one of the afformentioned brands. I was the one they called for help in getting their lease deals......Crevier BMW had a love/ hate relationship with me, they hate someone that can pencil alease and see where payments are packed ( inflated ).........and EVERY single one of those transactions was vanity based....( google New Century Mortgage....classic tale there....) Edited January 10, 2013 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) The challenge is how you maintain the necessary proportions of the Mustang, while supporting other and larger vehicles. Packaging the rear seats/fuel tank/rear suspension is one significant challenge, creating a safety cage that does not need significant alteration to support a higher roofed sedan is another. The front subframe, suspension firewall, engine bay, and some of the floorpan may be transferable. Some of the wiring harnesses may be transferable. But attempting to create something that is both sedan and coupe? Well, your coupe will be the Camaro or the Challenger. And who wants either of those instead of the Mustang? Think Maverick.............. Ford has access to all vehicles now and has the ability to mix and match with virtual build programs. It is more than likely that all options discussed herehave been subject to thorough review and elimination process. Ford would wan to keep the uniqueness of the mustang but also would love to do more with Falcon if at all possible. Edited January 11, 2013 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 So, your entire statement is a bunch of ridiculous stereotypes?Yeah. Okay. Understand that I'll never assume you say anything that will ever matter on this subject.And I've been in auto sales, auto parts, purchasing, among other facets. I was raised in a car-industry family. EXHIBIT A) 90 % of 3 series BMW's are leased, predominantly female gender, pre-reqisites are bleached blonde hair, false boobs and a surgically attached "smart" phone.....think they are worried about front and rear wheel drive. B) Audis top seller 4 series C) Lexus rx300, their biggest seller D) Ford focus...worlds #? seller E) Ford Explorer segment leader, F) Edge segment leader.....who needs to interveiw, get back to me when you have been in the sales side o the industry and figure out peoples "hot buttons".....if you have any experience in the Auto industry, specifically sales, then I will grant you an apology.......here, at least in So Cal ( which by the way is one of the countries LARGEST car markets ) its ALL about looks and image, NOTHING about front / rear or AWD barring true diehard enthusiasts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Okay, no, to be fair, I should relent a bit...after all, I can't deny that every time I've been to LA, every possible dumb stereotype about the place seems to come very true.The band Tool is just one that talks about dropping SoCal into the ocean. Funny how many people seem to agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I know it's sacrilege. I want a four door Mustang. Not a Maverick, Falcon, or Fairlane. A Mustang. Ford would sell a boatload of them. Build a Lincoln off that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Since some seem to want to discredit what I wrote on this...looks like I will have to defend it. Like all sources, I wont diverge the exact source, but will say it is someone very close to the top. The board approved it a few months ago. Not to say if the MkZ and MkD or C are not successful that they board will definitely pull the plug. The board wants a return on the investment, not Audi-like money, but at least see that they are bringing in money. They put a tentative production date of Dec.1, 2015. That of course depends on how development goes. if you dont believe it, don't. But the Ford Board disagrees with you at this time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
probowler Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I know it's sacrilege. I want a four door Mustang. Not a Maverick, Falcon, or Fairlane. A Mustang. Ford would sell a boatload of them. Build a Lincoln off that. Go ahead and build it, but don't call it a Mustang. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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