New Light & Medium Duty News

[Joe771476]

On 12/7/2023 at 7:57 PM, ausrutherford said:

It looks like the F-Line is replacing the older Cargo. 

 

RIP to the Cargo nameplate...

I was watching WORLDS DUMBEST Tru TV show and this episode was about dumbest performers. A fireman in Europe somewhere was demonstrating fire safety and behind him was an old Ford Cargo fire truck from the 80's/90's. The demonstration went terribly wrong by the way!

Edited January 9 by Joe771476

[7Mary3]

There are new rumors that GM (and probably Isuzu) are working on a new 8.3L Duramax diesel engine.  No word yet if this engine will be for heavy duty pickups or commercial trucks, or both.  The larger displacement may be in response to more stringent diesel emissions regulations, possibly a way to maintain current H.P./torque output while making the engine 'cleaner'.  Interesting to note that the Isuzu 4HK1 and 6.7L Powerstroke will not be available in 2025 medium duty commercial trucks in CARB states.

[Bob Rosadini]

5 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

There are new rumors that GM (and probably Isuzu) are working on a new 8.3L Duramax diesel engine.  No word yet if this engine will be for heavy duty pickups or commercial trucks, or both.  The larger displacement may be in response to more stringent diesel emissions regulations, possibly a way to maintain current H.P./torque output while making the engine 'cleaner'.  Interesting to note that the Isuzu 4HK1 and 6.7L Powerstroke will not be available in 2025 medium duty commercial trucks in CARB states.

FLT has a video on this rumor.  Surprised they don't have a big gas engine for the true "mediums.

[GearheadGrrrl]

An 8.3 liter diesel for HD pickups and even up through Class 6 would buck the trend to smaller engines... Maybe GM plans to move back up into Classes 7 and 8?

[Bob Rosadini]

7 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

An 8.3 liter diesel for HD pickups and even up through Class 6 would buck the trend to smaller engines... Maybe GM plans to move back up into Classes 7 and 8?

Well if it is true they will have bragging rights over Ford and Dodge.  At times I think as dumb as that is  they want that press.

[fordmantpw]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:27 PM, rmc523 said:

 

Why can't they just keep the '24 MY going through the end of '24 and avoid it in the short term?

 

On 1/8/2024 at 4:07 PM, 7Mary3 said:

 

No idea.  But Ford isn't the only truck manufacturer to advance the MY's of medium duty trucks. 

 

The MY of the truck doesn't matter, does it?  Doesn't the date the truck is produced determine the emissions regs?

[Rick73]

9 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

An 8.3 liter diesel for HD pickups and even up through Class 6 would buck the trend to smaller engines... Maybe GM plans to move back up into Classes 7 and 8?

If developed with Isuzu, would it not likely be an inline-6 like Cummins?  That in itself would be seen as a plus by many.  Isuzu already makes or made an engine family up to 8.2L, so may not be much of a stretch to increase to 8.3L.  I’d be curious how much larger and heavier than Cummins 6.7L it would be, and whether it would fit in a Chevy HD.

 

Additional displacement may be necessary if they are thinking about running on natural gas, or propane, in an attempt to reduce emissions.  You’re right that a larger engine makes little sense unless they are looking at much larger trucks; or perhaps burning fuel other than 100% diesel.

[Bob Rosadini]

11 hours ago, fordmantpw said:

 

 

The MY of the truck doesn't matter, does it?  Doesn't the date the truck is produced determine the emissions regs?

Had same opinion.  Actually wasn't at one time a date in August the trigger point to advance to  next model year??

[7Mary3]

A manufacturer can advance to the next model year any time after Jan. 1st..  Ford, Isuzu and some others have been doing this for some time.  Not sure what the laws are regarding emission standards, it used to be the year of manufacture of the engine, not the truck.  Somehow now the MY of the vehicle factors in.  It appears the current 6.7L Powerstroke does not meet 2025 CARB standards, and that's why the diesel 650 and 750 will not be available in CARB states for the 2025MY.  Certain 2025 Isuzu and Chevy trucks powered by the 4HK1 will not be available either.  The 6.7L Cummins does comply with 2025 CARB regulations.

 

I have a feeling that if the 8.3L Duramax rumors are true (and the engine is a diesel) it is in response to upcoming CARB and EPA regulations. 

[akirby]

9 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Had same opinion.  Actually wasn't at one time a date in August the trigger point to advance to  next model year??

That was the typical changeover date give or take a month, but that was strictly by choice.  The law says you can sell 2025 vehicles any time after Jan 1st 2024 until dec 31 2025.

Edited February 2 by akirby

[rmc523]

17 minutes ago, akirby said:

That was the typical changeover date give or take a month, but that was strictly by choice.  The law says you can sell 2025 vehicles any time after Jan 1st 2024 until dec 31 2024.

 

you mean Dec 31, 2025?

[iamweasel]

1 hour ago, 7Mary3 said:

A manufacturer can advance to the next model year any time after Jan. 1st..  Ford, Isuzu and some others have been doing this for some time.  Not sure what the laws are regarding emission standards, it used to be the year of manufacture of the engine, not the truck.  Somehow now the MY of the vehicle factors in.  It appears the current 6.7L Powerstroke does not meet 2025 CARB standards, and that's why the diesel 650 and 750 will not be available in CARB states for the 2025MY.  Certain 2025 Isuzu and Chevy trucks powered by the 4HK1 will not be available either.  The 6.7L Cummins does comply with 2025 CARB regulations.

 

I have a feeling that if the 8.3L Duramax rumors are true (and the engine is a diesel) it is in response to upcoming CARB and EPA regulations. 

 

On the Daimler side, they tell us that it's the date of the engine is what matters.  You can't build an engine in Detroit on 1/1 and ship it to North Carolina to be installed in a truck that same day, you know?  (DTNA also flipped to 25MY starting 1/1/24.)

 

So over the past 3 months theoretically you could have:

1)  A 24MY truck with a 23CY engine

2)  A 25MY truck with a 23CY engine (engine built a week or two before the year is over)

3)  A 25MY truck with a 24CY engine

 

DTNA really goes out of their way to avoid #2.  They don't want to have any gray-area issues with the EPA/CARB, so they will start to produce their 25CY emission engines late in 24CY and time-it so any truck rolling down the line in 24CY gets a 24CY engine.  I have had a few oddball trucks over the years like item #2, though.  Those situations only happened when there was a production/supply issue of some sort that messed up the timing.  

[GearheadGrrrl]

IIRC the Feds go by when the engine assembly started- Navistar gamed this a few years ago when they were having trouble meeting next years standards by parking a bunch of engine blocks in the parking lot, laying on main bearings and cranks, and calling that the date of assembly. 

[7Mary3]

32 minutes ago, iamweasel said:

 

On the Daimler side, they tell us that it's the date of the engine is what matters.  You can't build an engine in Detroit on 1/1 and ship it to North Carolina to be installed in a truck that same day, you know?  (DTNA also flipped to 25MY starting 1/1/24.)

 

So over the past 3 months theoretically you could have:

1)  A 24MY truck with a 23CY engine

2)  A 25MY truck with a 23CY engine (engine built a week or two before the year is over)

3)  A 25MY truck with a 24CY engine

 

DTNA really goes out of their way to avoid #2.  They don't want to have any gray-area issues with the EPA/CARB, so they will start to produce their 25CY emission engines late in 24CY and time-it so any truck rolling down the line in 24CY gets a 24CY engine.  I have had a few oddball trucks over the years like item #2, though.  Those situations only happened when there was a production/supply issue of some sort that messed up the timing.  

 

Yes, that's been my understanding for years.  No idea why 2025MY trucks with engines manufactured in 2024CY appear to be an issue now.  

[iamweasel]

24 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Yes, that's been my understanding for years.  No idea why 2025MY trucks with engines manufactured in 2024CY appear to be an issue now.  

 

Who knows.....there are so many new rules in the process of implementation everyone is just confused across the board.    CARB alone is bad enough then you add EPA, OmniBus, ACF into the mix it just makes it chaos.

 

I'm just glad I'm not in California like you are.  I feel for people who do what I do out there.  It's a nightmare....

[akirby]

6 hours ago, rmc523 said:

 

you mean Dec 31, 2025?

Oops good catch.  To further clarify, you can build a 2025 prior to 1/1/2024 but you can’t sell it until 1/1/24.  Ford did this a few years ago with something.

But you can’t build a 2025 past 12/31/2025.

[Bob Rosadini]

So back to CARB and model year '25. This reg only includes class 6 and 7.  So a 550 at 19,500GVW is exempt?

And while we keep referring to 650/750, an F-600 at 22,000 is also exempt?

[7Mary3]

2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

So back to CARB and model year '25. This reg only includes class 6 and 7.  So a 550 at 19,500GVW is exempt?

And while we keep referring to 650/750, an F-600 at 22,000 is also exempt?

 

The 600 and lighter F series trucks are still 2024 models.  The 650 and 750 are now 2025MY, and that appears to be the problem with CARB.  Same for Isuzu, they are now 2025MY also.

[Bob Rosadini]

8 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

The 600 and lighter F series trucks are still 2024 models.  The 650 and 750 are now 2025MY, and that appears to be the problem with CARB.  Same for Isuzu, they are now 2025MY also.

Got it...but what happens in '25 to 450-600?   And the JV GM/Internationals-don't have a gas option-at least for now they don't- seems like they are really shafted???

[7Mary3]

2 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Got it...but what happens in '25 to 450-600?   And the JV GM/Internationals-don't have a gas option-at least for now they don't- seems like they are really shafted???

 

Yeah, I'm wondering what happens in 2025 for Ford too.  No idea what GM/Navistar is up to, there were a lot of rumors about a class 7 and gas engines before Covid, but since they seem to be content with what they have.  There has been very few updates to those trucks since introduction.   

[Bob Rosadini]

27 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said:

 

Yeah, I'm wondering what happens in 2025 for Ford too.  No idea what GM/Navistar is up to, there were a lot of rumors about a class 7 and gas engines before Covid, but since they seem to be content with what they have.  There has been very few updates to those trucks since introduction.   

Work Truck show coming up soon...I think this is big event when it comes in particular to classes 4-7.  Don't see how the manufacturers can avoid this subject.

[iamweasel]

15 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

So back to CARB and model year '25. This reg only includes class 6 and 7.  So a 550 at 19,500GVW is exempt?

And while we keep referring to 650/750, an F-600 at 22,000 is also exempt?

 

GVWR doesn't have anything to do with it.  At least in Class 3 and above, which is what I'm familiar with, there are no exemptions based on GVWR.  It's basically whether or not your engine meets the new requirements in California and the Isuzu diesel and Cummins L9 don't make the cut.  Engines like the Detroit DD5/DD8 and Cummins B6.7 passed the test.   

 

Also note there are still "CARB" certified trucks that are not allowed to be sold in California.  At least with the way I am ordering our trucks, I have to choose between these 3 options:

1. No CARB certification (To be registered in the other 45-49 states depending on which way the wind blows.  For some states, like PA, you can't register a truck there if you do this.)
2. CARB certified / to be registered in the other 49 states (Adds ~ $1,500 to the truck price.  You need this option to get the Clean Idle Sticker.  You can safely register these in all 49 states.)
3. CARB certified / To be registered in California (Adds $12K more to the price than option #1.  In addition, with DTNA they are only going to build so many of these engines this year so only dealers in California have allocation for this and it's in limited quantities.)

 

[Bob Rosadini]

22 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

GVWR doesn't have anything to do with it.  At least in Class 3 and above, which is what I'm familiar with, there are no exemptions based on GVWR.  It's basically whether or not your engine meets the new requirements in California and the Isuzu diesel and Cummins L9 don't make the cut.  Engines like the Detroit DD5/DD8 and Cummins B6.7 passed the test.   

 

Also note there are still "CARB" certified trucks that are not allowed to be sold in California.  At least with the way I am ordering our trucks, I have to choose between these 3 options:

1. No CARB certification (To be registered in the other 45-49 states depending on which way the wind blows.  For some states, like PA, you can't register a truck there if you do this.)
2. CARB certified / to be registered in the other 49 states (Adds ~ $1,500 to the truck price.  You need this option to get the Clean Idle Sticker.  You can safely register these in all 49 states.)
3. CARB certified / To be registered in California (Adds $12K more to the price than option #1.  In addition, with DTNA they are only going to build so many of these engines this year so only dealers in California have allocation for this and it's in limited quantities.)

 

Thx for clarification.  So if engine is determining factor and NOT GVW- while all the press I have read seems to focus on class 6/7-then Ford has a big problem in MY25 with 250-600 too as the 6.7 Powerstroke is non compliant?  Or it is ONLY the 330 HP version which I believe is the only rating available in 650/750?

 

Also is a B6.7 Cummins the same as a "6.7" as used in a Dodge..excuse me, RAM.??   RAM has never referred to the 6.7 Cummins as a "B 6.7"...or I have never seen that reference.

[7Mary3]

A 'B' series Cummins is the current 6.7L, installed in a Ram or otherwise.  

 

And speaking of the 650 and 750, according to the thread on sales of these trucks are down 42.7% over last year.  A 737 sales for January and over 5000 units in inventory?

[Bob Rosadini]

12 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

A 'B' series Cummins is the current 6.7L, installed in a Ram or otherwise.  

 

And speaking of the 650 and 750, according to the thread on sales of these trucks are down 42.7% over last year.  A 737 sales for January and over 5000 units in inventory?

Thx for clarification on the "B-6.7".  

As for 5000 650/750 inventory IMO that can't be correct.  It would be almost half of a full year production.  My bet is someone at Ford generating this press release got a decimal point wrong.  OR did they lump 450-600 figures in that number???

Also one month of numbers is probably not a good yardstick...I hope?