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Joe771476

New light & medium duty news

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Mack is pushing into medium duty. They now offer a class 7 Granite with a 9L engine. There have been a few sketchy rumors they are looking at other medium duty options.

I can't believe that a Granite can be a cost effective way to compete in the class 7 market. Granted it provides some economy of scale but you are talking about a cab that is over engineered for class 7-or should I say "too rugged" for the typical class 7 application? good selling point but at what cost?

 

In terms of "other options", what might Volvo have in their bag of tricks??

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I came across a company called Foley Engines selling Deutz diesel engines in Worcester MA. Ever hear of it Bob R? I don't know what brand of vehicle uses them anymore! Meanwhile, Ram is going after fleet sales. Automotive News reports Ram is going after Ford and GM, who hold 47 and 40 percent respectively to Ram's 11 percent. According to Ford's website, they're giving discounts on mediums. Apparently there is some money to be made in fleet sales! Latest Truck Trader mag shows medium duty Fords but doesn't specify the year. They just say NEW F650/F750. Any reason to worry?

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I expect Ram to gain some fleet/commercial market share when the Promaster van goes on sale and the 4500/5500 gain a gasoline engine option, all of which should happen by next year.

 

GM has rolled out some aggressive fleet/commercial dealer programs which should make them more 'user friendly' towards that type of buyer. No new commercial vehicles to report now other than that rebadged small Nissan cargo van. GM and Isuzu are still pretty much dormant with regards to commercial truck models..............

 

Volvo/Mack medium duty: Nothing concrete to report other than rumors are they are looking at the market. Volvo has some nice mid-range engines we don't see here. Keep this in mind though: Going back to the 1987 creation of Volvo/GM Heavy Truck, remember that most of their dealers were former GMC franchises, which gave them both medium (GMC) and heavy duty (WhiteGMC) lines to sell. This continued when WhiteGMC became Volvo Truck. Since 2009 when GM stopped production of medium trucks, most those dealers have been with without a medium duty line to sell. This has not been too big an issue for those dealers last couple of years with the economy being what it has been, but medium trucks sales are slowly starting to improve. Volvo owns Nissan UD, but they recently pulled out of the U.S. and Canadian medium duty markets. I always thought it was strange they never moved to integrate Nissan UD into Volvo/Mack here in the U.S.. I have no idea what is going to happen, but I think I can see a few interesting possibilities.

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Curious, so I went looking. :)

 

I came across a company called Foley Engines selling Deutz diesel engines

 

Deutz AG

 

The company was founded by Nikolaus Otto, inventor of the four-stroke internal combustion engine, in 1864 as N. A. Otto & Cie. Other famous names who worked for Deutz are Eugen Langen, Gottlieb Daimler, Wilhelm Maybach, Prosper L'Orange, Rudolf Diesel, Robert Bosch and Ettore Bugatti.

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Joe,

 

No clue on Foley. As for Deutz, Edstock gave us a good resource. To the best of my knowledge I don't think anyone is offering them in commercial trucks-although there might be some step van chassis that still offer them. Last -and I think ONLY -American class 8 to offer them was that guy Osterlund from PA who was building the old Diamond Reo 114/116 series and they offered them for a while. As they were air cooled, no need for big square hood to accomodate a big radiator so they had an ugly sloping hood-good visibility but it was UGLY!

 

My personal experience? I had rented a good size Deutz powered 4 WD boom lift to do some work on my house. It started smoking big time one morning and I could not shut it off-engine was a run-away although not at high RPM. I ended up pulling the air intake hose off the external air filter and jammed a rag in it to kill it. Was told it had a cracked ring-not sur how that would let it pull lube oil but that was the story-by the way-they replaced it with same size machine tht had a Ford 4 cyl gas engine.

 

7M-right on the Volvo dealers who trace their roots to the old WhiteGMC era. But again, when people say Ford will ultimately abandon class 6/7, I say how in the same breath can you say someone else who has NOT had a presence or a recent prescence, can jump in with any less effort than Ford-who has never left it.

 

And speaking of Mack, how about this little puppy. I was at the Mack Museum in Allentown over the weekend which is now located in the R & D building. This Titan was parked at the flag pole-huge triaxle heavy haul tractor. And speaking of Mack, its been two years since I was at this facility. they have put a lot of money and effort into it. I have my fears that Volvo will ultimately play the "synergy" card and pull the plug but things do look good. A few hundred all white trucks in the back lot of the Macungie plant. One of them on display in the museum- 12:00 x 24 rubber-yes 24, tube type, dual front steering axles big rears, and NO DEF tank and the other associated BS- paperwork on the chassis indicating headed for Mexico! Nice that some Americans got to build a truck instead of the other way around (650/750)

post-609-0-67536600-1371435729_thumb.jpg

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I like some of the new Macks, Volvo notwithstanding.

 

Regarding the prospects of someone like Volvo or Mack getting into medium duty while GM left the market and Ford's future in it is very cloudy. The thing is I see the basic split between what is a medium duty and what is a light-heavy duty has become blurred. In the past, class 6 and 7 trucks would share some components with light duty trucks (like gasoline engines and cabs). Nowadays, full class 6 and 7 trucks share a lot more components with heavy trucks. This is why I don't see much profit for companies like Ford, GM, and Ram going back into (or staying) in class 6 and 7. Class 4 and 5 are far closer to larger pickups now, and truth of the matter is those class trucks are the bulk of the medium duty market now anyway. Makes perfect sense for Ford, GM, and Ram to be in class 4 and 5, but a lot less sense to be in class 6 and 7, unless they partner with someone.

 

Pure speculation on my part, but I would not be at all surprised to see Blue Diamond continue, and Avon Lake eventually being utilized for something else (different versions of the large Transit?). I see GM eventually offering class 4 and 5 version of their upcoming Silverado/Sierra HD's, but nothing larger by themselves. They might do something with Isuzu.

 

Isuzu is interesting, they are about the second largest truck manufacturer in the world behind Daimler, but they don't have much presence in the U.S. at the moment. Of course, all of their larger trucks are cabovers and that effectively keeps them out of here. But given their size and experience with U.S. emissions regulations you have to wonder if they are considering expanding in the U.S..

 

Volvo/Mack could do something like PACCAR. The Kenworth and Peterbilt class 6 and 7 trucks sell fairly weil, despite their relatively high cost. A Volvo day cab on a medium duty chassis with a mid-range Volvo diesel might work.

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I like some of the new Macks, Volvo notwithstanding.

 

Regarding the prospects of someone like Volvo or Mack getting into medium duty while GM left the market and Ford's future in it is very cloudy. The thing is I see the basic split between what is a medium duty and what is a light-heavy duty has become blurred. In the past, class 6 and 7 trucks would share some components with light duty trucks (like gasoline engines and cabs). Nowadays, full class 6 and 7 trucks share a lot more components with heavy trucks. This is why I don't see much profit for companies like Ford, GM, and Ram going back into (or staying) in class 6 and 7. Class 4 and 5 are far closer to larger pickups now, and truth of the matter is those class trucks are the bulk of the medium duty market now anyway. Makes perfect sense for Ford, GM, and Ram to be in class 4 and 5, but a lot less sense to be in class 6 and 7, unless they partner with someone.

 

Pure speculation on my part, but I would not be at all surprised to see Blue Diamond continue, and Avon Lake eventually being utilized for something else (different versions of the large Transit?). I see GM eventually offering class 4 and 5 version of their upcoming Silverado/Sierra HD's, but nothing larger by themselves. They might do something with Isuzu.

 

Isuzu is interesting, they are about the second largest truck manufacturer in the world behind Daimler, but they don't have much presence in the U.S. at the moment. Of course, all of their larger trucks are cabovers and that effectively keeps them out of here. But given their size and experience with U.S. emissions regulations you have to wonder if they are considering expanding in the U.S..

 

Volvo/Mack could do something like PACCAR. The Kenworth and Peterbilt class 6 and 7 trucks sell fairly weil, despite their relatively high cost. A Volvo day cab on a medium duty chassis with a mid-range Volvo diesel might work.

Agree with your point on class 6 and 7 now "blurred" with class 8. However, as I see it, that is because the traditional class 8 builders have moved DOWN into 6 and 7 to fill the void created when Dodge and GM left. I think it is also a reason whyToyota saw the opportunity to fill a void-for a lower cost alternative to a Pete/KW/Freightlier.

 

As I look at the "old days", Ford covered both sides of the coin- the F700/800/F7000/F8000 for the low cost end with the Louisville on the higher end in the same GVW ratings.

 

One other point. We had talked in the past about Ford and Navistar partnering. There is a change at the top at Navistar and with that may come new ideas. S & P questions Navistar's long term chances. Perhaps there is a chance these two will kiss and make up?

 

Stranger things have happened.

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Would Navistar sink their CAT partnership to pick back up with Ford? For that matter, how has the CT660 done since coming on the market?

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Would Navistar sink their CAT partnership to pick back up with Ford? For that matter, how has the CT660 done since coming on the market?

 

It is starting to look like Navistar could be a takeover target if their recovery fails, and some of the Wall Street types are not too optimistic at this point. I suppose anything is possible, but my guess is Caterpillar and VW are the two most likely suitors. VW is trying an aggressive takeover of MAN right now, and they own part of Scania. If VW were able to put MAN, Scania, and Navistar together, they would be a serious challenge to Daimler.

 

If Caterpillar really wanted to be in the truck business, Navistar would be an easy way to do it. I think Naviastar's engine problems would be solved very quickly!

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As for the Cat CT 660, how many have you seen on the road? No doubt Cat people are very loyal-when it comes to construction equipment. When it comes to truck engines, how many people were burned by Cat before they pulledf the plug on truck engines? I would imagine it will take some time for those people to forget-kind of like the Ford6.0/6.4 PS experience? I have to admit, I scratched my head when they partnered with Navistar. And likewise, I have to scratch my head when Cat partnered with Navistar! This guy Ustian was marching to his own cadence. What did he know that Cummins, Mack/Volvo, Daimler/Detroit did not? I guess not much.

 

Regardless of who it might be, when you read all the negative press about Navistar's long term prospects, if the common thought a few years ago was that there are too many independent builders, makes sense today that a partnership with someone is their best bet. Again, hate to see another American Icon go.

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It would be very easy for Ford to beef up its F750 chassis and sell class 8 vocational chassis and single axle tractors. This would essentially put Daimler and International into a downward spiral fast! Ford is giving 1.0 liter engine info to Daimler, and I'm not quite sure if International and Ford are still feuding. So Maybe Ford is being nice and staying out of class 8. Ford was once a top contender back in the 80's/90's. That crap about wanting to devote Kentucky to profitable Super Duty production was hogwash! They could have kept building the mediums and heavies there. Put on three shifts if you have to, As far as dropping the mediums, Deluca seems too excited about F650 sales quadrupling due to continued customer interest in the V10 gas engine.

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It would be very easy for Ford to beef up its F750 chassis and sell class 8 vocational chassis and single axle tractors.

But could they do it profitably ?

 

Buying most of the major components (engines, transmissions, axles) leaves very little room for profit.

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It seems to me they could Wizard. Fleet.Ford.com site shows an F650/750 cab/chassis going for almost $60,000! I can't believe they're not making any money on that! Also on that site, the Type II and III E-series ambulances carefully omit engine choices. No diesel I figure is the reason. They're pitching E-series police vehicles for prisoner transport! Well why not?! Hunter Ambulance here in CT apparently returned to E-series Fords after dabbling with GM (Chevrolet) extended vans. Also, International will apparently take a hit now that the MRAP armored vehicle is being mothballed. They're too expensive to maintain and fix according to an article in USA Today. The Pentagon is looking toward a Joint Light Tactical Vehicle (JLTV). Maybe Ford can get in on that! Two more things. First, International took a 60% drop in class 7 sales for March. Second, in a magazine (can't remember which one) geared toward class 8 news, I saw an ad for Ford Engines and Transmissions! What the heck was that all about?

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It seems to me they could Wizard. Fleet.Ford.com site shows an F650/750 cab/chassis going for almost $60,000! I can't believe they're not making any money on that! Also on that site, the Type II and III E-series ambulances carefully omit engine choices. No diesel I figure is the reason. They're pitching E-series police vehicles for prisoner transport! Well why not?! Hunter Ambulance here in CT apparently returned to E-series Fords after dabbling with GM (Chevrolet) extended vans. Also, International will apparently take a hit now that the MRAP armored vehicle is being mothballed. They're too expensive to maintain and fix according to an article in USA Today. The Pentagon is looking toward a Joint Light Tactical Vehicle (JLTV). Maybe Ford can get in on that! Two more things. First, International took a 60% drop in class 7 sales for March. Second, in a magazine (can't remember which one) geared toward class 8 news, I saw an ad for Ford Engines and Transmissions! What the heck was that all about?

Joe- regarding the JLTV, I believe that is the vehicle that BAE proposed using a 6.7 PStroke. Read an article on that months ago but haven't seen anything lately.

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But could they do it profitably ?

 

Buying most of the major components (engines, transmissions, axles) leaves very little room for profit.

 

Good point, and in addition you have to look at it from the standpoint that if Ford was to devote resources to manufacturing medium (or heavy, for that matter) trucks, how much ROI would they earn compared to devoting those same resources to another type of vehicle? A good example of this would be the heavy truck line at Louisville. Ford was making some money on their heavy models, but truth of the matter was the same resources spent on the heavies made a LOT more money spent on the Super Duty after the heavies were dropped and the plant changed over to class 3-5 Super Duty's and SUV's. Not only could the Louisville plant build far more Super Duty's per shift than they could build Louisville's, but the per unit profits were much higher. Remember that the Ford heavies were primarily low-bid fleet trucks, and sold in a very price-sensitive market.

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Good point, and in addition you have to look at it from the standpoint that if Ford was to devote resources to manufacturing medium (or heavy, for that matter) trucks, how much ROI would they earn compared to devoting those same resources to another type of vehicle? A good example of this would be the heavy truck line at Louisville. Ford was making some money on their heavy models, but truth of the matter was the same resources spent on the heavies made a LOT more money spent on the Super Duty after the heavies were dropped and the plant changed over to class 3-5 Super Duty's and SUV's. Not only could the Louisville plant build far more Super Duty's per shift than they could build Louisville's, but the per unit profits were much higher. Remember that the Ford heavies were primarily low-bid fleet trucks, and sold in a very price-sensitive market.

My memory is not that good, but I recall the day when Jacque the Knife announced the end of Heavy Truck. To paraphrase what he said. "Yes we are making profit, but we could make more profit by putting that money in a bank and collecting simple interest !"

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My memory is not that good, but I recall the day when Jacque the Knife announced the end of Heavy Truck. To paraphrase what he said. "Yes we are making profit, but we could make more profit by putting that money in a bank and collecting simple interest !"

Pity he didn't keep Heavy trucks and follow his own advice and not bought Jaguar, Land Rover and Volvo.

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Pity he didn't keep Heavy trucks and follow his own advice and not bought Jaguar, Land Rover and Volvo.

Right on-but you forgot Greenleaf, and Kwik-fit or whatever it was called and wanting to know..."what the consumer wants in his kitchen". A quote from Jac in an interview in the BOSTON GLOBE.

 

And as for the profitability of KTP, no doubt cranking out F-250/350's made for better numbers. But the one thing I always wrestle with is at what point do you draw the line on being one dimensional? Have they killed Lincoln? Is the profitability of "Lincoln Motor Co." close to say the profit on the the Fusion?

 

How does Toyota bring out a line of trucks and start from scratch? How did Daimler take Freightliner and turn the entire line into the market leader? Does the commercial truck market allow them to make the same return that they do on a Mercedes 450?

 

When Ford sold the heavy line-or should I say "gave" the heavy line to Daimler I remember one analyst.."applauding Ford for their short term focus". Imagine that- "short term focus". Jac sure knew how to play to the galleries.

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Kwik-fit was the one that really p!ssed me off ! The same bank handled the purchase and sale and made MILLIONS on each transaction !

 

If you look back, you realize what a "gutsy" move it was to get rid of Nassar, especially the way they did !

 

 

Lincoln is still on "life support". For how long, who knows ! Please no more "weird" cars like the MkT !!

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And so much for that:

 

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2013/07/chrysler-unlikely-to-get-iveco-vans

 

Who knows if an Italian heavy truck would have played in the U.S. and Canada. I thought the prospects were intriguing anyway!

As I would read this article the one thing it does emphasize is the complexity of ANYTHING involving Chrysler/Fiat-and CNH-one regulatory hurdle after another. But I think a lot of people wrote Marchione off as a flake. So far he appears to be a guy who has a handle on things and gets things done.

 

In any case let's hope they DON"T do it-last thing Ford needs is more competition in the van segment.

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And so much for that:

 

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2013/07/chrysler-unlikely-to-get-iveco-vans

 

Who knows if an Italian heavy truck would have played in the U.S. and Canada. I thought the prospects were intriguing anyway!

CNH dealers selling Iveco vans and trucks? That would be a difficult launch, possibly harder to do than trying to sign up existing truck / commercial vehicle dealers. Now, If CNH would bring in the Daily van and offer it to select heavy and medium vehicle dealers, I could see a fair number of them picking it up to fill out the line up.

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I just saw a Ford ad in Tow Times magazine and they show a Transit Connect, an F450 with a utility body and an E-series van! Do you think they should have had an ad with an F650/750 medium duty instead? What kind of nonsense is this? And if Ford doesn't go into vocational 8's soon before Ram does, they will see their medium AND light duty sales plummet! The first one to plunge into class 8 VOCATIONAL between Ram and Ford will automatically keep the other from entering it.

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I just saw a Ford ad in Tow Times magazine and they show a Transit Connect, an F450 with a utility body and an E-series van! Do you think they should have had an ad with an F650/750 medium duty instead? What kind of nonsense is this? And if Ford doesn't go into vocational 8's soon before Ram does, they will see their medium AND light duty sales plummet! The first one to plunge into class 8 VOCATIONAL between Ram and Ford will automatically keep the other from entering it.

 

Of course anything can happen at this point, but it looks like Ram will not be going into anything larger than class 6. The latest is that if Iveco does come to the U.S., it will be through CNH. That having been said, I don't think a move into class 8 by Ford or Ram would automatically keep the other out. It all boils down to how much money Ford or Ram could make in class 8, and my guess is at this time there is not enough profit for either to be interested in class 8.

 

As for Ford's commercial truck advertising strategy, it certainly has been the subject of much discussion around here for the past few years! It still seems that Ford is still not interested in selling these trucks, even though you would think that they would be more pro-active with the upcoming move to bring these vehicles back 'in house'. Currently, the sale of an F-650 or 750 means a lot more to Navistar than it does for Ford, but I can't see any harm in pushing the current trucks to keep Ford's market share up.

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I have been seeing more and more of the Cat CT660 vocational class 8 truck running around....This thing has a BIG 12.4L six cylinder diesel with SCR exhaust treatment and upwards of 1700 ft lbs of torque...she is a beast and I think Cat is taking Voc 8 by storm with this one...

Drive Cat

PS: From what I have read, these trucks are made in a joint venture with none other than Navistar...

home_TruckDetails.jpg

Edited by twintornados

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