New Light & Medium Duty News

[Bob Rosadini]

Agree on the apparent attractiveness of utilizing the 6.7 in V-6 form from a plant utilization perspective-as well as I would assume outsourced parts economics. No clue on the feasibility of doing that with the 6.7 vs. the 6.0-anyone have a clue?

 

But it is still a complicated package vs say an inline design. I have to believe Ford has that capabioity

 

By the way, I understand the Mazda cab sourced cab over was a nice truck or so I've been told- the V-6 was the achilles heal.

[theoldwizard]

...the only thing we can hope for is a better showing in class 7 with another power train option-like a good simple 6 cylinder diesel and some transmission choices other than a Torqueshift and even a bigger gasoline option and perhaps a tandem with appropriate power for a vocational class 8

Designing a new engine and transmission is highly unlikely, because there just is not enough volume to justify it. A new gasoline engine is only likely if it can be built off of an existing block (6.2L) or a new block that can handle both a smaller and larger finished size.

 

Using a third party engine or transmission is also not likely do to cost issues.

 

Remember, the only reason Ford went back into Class 6 and 7 by themselves is that it was going to be a profitable venture.

[lfeg]

One thing that will be driving engine choices in classes 4 through 8 in the next 5 years are the greenhouse gas regs that are on the books. For years 200 to 275 hp were the norm in classes 4/5/6, and with the regs on the books we will be going back to that. Enough power to get the job done while meeting the regs. High hp in the mediums will be a luxury few will be able to afford, as fuel economy will not be mandated, but carbon dioxide emissions will be strictly limited, and that will effectively mandate that fuel economy will trump power.

[Bob Rosadini]

Designing a new engine and transmission is highly unlikely, because there just is not enough volume to justify it. A new gasoline engine is only likely if it can be built off of an existing block (6.2L) or a new block that can handle both a smaller and larger finished size.

 

Using a third party engine or transmission is also not likely do to cost issues.

 

Remember, the only reason Ford went back into Class 6 and 7 by themselves is that it was going to be a profitable venture.

I hear you and certainly understand the profitability issue-remember, I am a stockholder. And I'm not suggesting they can afford to design from scratch an appropriate inline engine, transmission.

 

However, what would it take to bring one of the Duratorque engines used in the Cargos built in Turkey over here?

 

And as for buying a 6.7 Cummins (and Allison), I'm sure Cummins would like to gain another outlet-after all, before long the VW connection with Navistar WILL curtail Cummins demand from Navistar.

 

Will it be profitable? Yes if you price it accordingly. And there will be loyal Ford buyers IMO who WILL pay a premium for a 750 IF they have confidence in the power train.

 

The 750 sales continue to go downhill and I'm convinced the lack of an alternative powertrain is the key factor there. At one point do lost 750/650 sales because of the engine/trans option issue effect overall medium profitability. OAP can't survive on V-10 650's alone.

[theoldwizard]

However, what would it take to bring one of the Duratorque engines used in the Cargos built in Turkey over here?

At a minimum it would take a new cylinder head and pistons to meet US emission standards.

 

And as for buying a 6.7 Cummins (and Allison), I'm sure Cummins would like to gain another outlet-after all, before long the VW connection with Navistar WILL curtail Cummins demand from Navistar.

The RFB of a Cummins engine likely does not match up to the 6R140. Mating it with an Allison would make it very VERY expensive.

 

It be profitable? Yes if you price it accordingly. And there will be loyal Ford buyers IMO who WILL pay a premium for a 750 IF they have confidence in the power train.

Maybe, but it is going to take building a deeper base before Ford will be able to get those additional $$$ out of those "loyal" customers.

[twintornados]

However, what would it take to bring one of the Duratorque engines used in the Cargos built in Turkey over here?

.

I believe they also build them in China.

 

 

At a minimum it would take a new cylinder head and pistons to meet US emission standards.

.

With the tightening of emission standards in EU and China...that may come as the engine evolves.

[7Mary3]

Speaking of Ford Otosan, the U.S. and Turkey seem to moving to opposite sides of the mess in Syria. Notwithstanding, I wonder if 'One Ford' includes the Otosan joint venture, or will eventually lead to divestiture.

[Bob Rosadini]

At a minimum it would take a new cylinder head and pistons to meet US emission standards.

 

 

The RFB of a Cummins engine likely does not match up to the 6R140. Mating it with an Allison would make it very VERY expensive.

 

 

Maybe, but it is going to take building a deeper base before Ford will be able to get those additional $$$ out of those "loyal" customers.

Wiz- always respect your views as a Ford annuitant. However, I don't see the mating of the 6.7 Cummins with the 6R140 as even beneficial. Keep in mind, the Cummins/Allison combo was engineered in the old Blue Diamonds. Granted the BD trucks were built on an International 4000 series chassis but I don't see it as rocket science to come up with proper hardware to adapt to the new Ford chassis. Again, I say a lot of buyers will want nothing to do with the Ford combo-not a criticism of the Ford engine/trans, but rather a preference for what they may well have had good experience with.

 

And again I have to say, with F'liner moving more toward their proprietary Detroit engines in class 6 and 7, and with the VW involvement with Navistar, it is only a matter of time before Cummins will WELCOME IMO, any chance to get their engines back into Fords.

 

And I have to say, I don't think "building a deeper base" is going to happen WITHOUT the additional power trains-in particular in class 7. Look at the class 7 sales numbers-they are going in one direction-down.

 

.

I believe they also build them in China.

 

 

.

With the tightening of emission standards in EU and China...that may come as the engine evolves.

 

TT- I believe the China venture involves the 13 liter FPT motors-not the 7.3 and 9 liters-but in any case, to your point on emissions if the rest of the world is tightening up regs, we could benefit and it won't be so expensive to meet US regs.

Speaking of Ford Otosan, the U.S. and Turkey seem to moving to opposite sides of the mess in Syria. Notwithstanding, I wonder if 'One Ford' includes the Otosan joint venture, or will eventually lead to divestiture.

Why is the case for divestiture anymore likely in Turkey vs. Russia vs. China etc.?? Granted the Turkey situation appears to be a difficult situation given our recognition of the Kurds as the most effective fighting force in Syria while they (the Kurds) continue their battle with the regime in Turkey. Bottom line I think anyone running a multinational company is constantly dealing with the shifting political winds and it would be so easy to say..."enough- we're outa there". But they don't.

 

Case in point, look at the loon running the Phillipines and the anti American crap this guy spews out- think American companies are ready to pull the plug on all their Phillipine call centers???

[twintornados]

The 6R140 transmission has the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the Alison. The Alison is proven, the 6R140 is not.....yet.

[7Mary3]

Why is the case for divestiture anymore likely in Turkey vs. Russia vs. China etc.?? Granted the Turkey situation appears to be a difficult situation given our recognition of the Kurds as the most effective fighting force in Syria while they (the Kurds) continue their battle with the regime in Turkey. Bottom line I think anyone running a multinational company is constantly dealing with the shifting political winds and it would be so easy to say..."enough- we're outa there". But they don't.

 

 

I am not so much thinking that the situation with Turkey would or could lead to Ford pulling out of Otosan, more that the joint venture business arrangement is not consistent with 'One Ford' philosophy. For course that might not mean so much if the venture is generating a good ROI.

[7Mary3]

The 6R140 transmission has the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the Alison. The Alison is proven, the 6R140 is not.....yet.

 

Standard SAE bell housing bolt pattern, #2 I think. The 6R140 seems to be doing well so far, and could be considered the equivalent of the Allison 1000/2000 series. However, when we say 'Allison', that includes more than the 1000/2000 series. If Ford wants to go north of 50,000#'s GCW they will need the Allison 3000 World transmission or it's equivalent.

[Bob Rosadini]

 

Standard SAE bell housing bolt pattern, #2 I think. The 6R140 seems to be doing well so far, and could be considered the equivalent of the Allison 1000/2000 series. However, when we say 'Allison', that includes more than the 1000/2000 series. If Ford wants to go north of 50,000#'s GCW they will need the Allison 3000 World transmission or it's equivalent.

Well one thing you CAN say about the 6R140 is that there has to be a ton of inservice miles in 450/550. And at higher HP and torque ratings than are offered in the 750 versions-I think. Question for you and others, where is that fine line as far as durability goes between higher GV/GVCW ratings and lower HP/ Torque ratings go? Again 750 can carry a 37,000 lb GVW and I think a GVCW as high as 60,000lbs.

 

Also as to the Allison1000/2000, which one is offered in the 3500 GM's? And at what max HP/Torque rating of the Duramax in that series??

[twintornados]

What transmission does Ford use behind the Duratorq engines of Cargo?

[Bob Rosadini]

What transmission does Ford use behind the Duratorq engines of Cargo?

The big ones built in Turkey use various ZF's i believe manuals as well as automated. The ones built in Brazil are Eatons -again manuals and automateds in the big ones while the small ones in lower weight classes are Eaton.

 

And by the way, the smaller Brazilian built trucks use Cummins, 4.5, 6.7 and 8.3 (8.9?) Go to Ford Global site and they are finally translating from Portugease.

 

I guess Ford is waiting for Hino, Isuzu, and GM to build a big loyalty base with their cab overs before they decide its time to get in the market....DUH!

[Joe771476]

Check out this mag ad. Before you get excited though, I went back 5 months and each month they promote a different mfr. However I didn't see any for Mack or Volvo. Just flip one page.

 

 

http://worldwidedrillingresource.info/archiv/2016/November16/

[theoldwizard]

Designing a new engine and transmission is highly unlikely, because there just is not enough volume to justify it. A new gasoline engine is only likely if it can be built off of an existing block (6.2L) or a new block that can handle both a smaller and larger finished size.

Well it looks like I am wrong unless this new engine is going to have a BIG brother !

 

New Ford 7.0 L

[Bob Rosadini]

Had a conversation with a guy who is responsible for distribution at a steel supply firm. This outfit has always run 33,000 gvw straight jobs with like 20' flatbeds. Has a few new 750's with Power Strokes.. His comment was ..."no issues yet-and much better than ones they replaced". these were Cummins powered and according to him he had all sorts of problems associated with the emissions system- def/ regen and he was always battling the Ford dealer-"take it to Cummins" and Cummins saying..."take it to Ford".

 

So I guess at least from this guys perspective, the Ford sales pitch of .."its all Ford" makes sense to him.

 

On another note I saw a picture (On BigMack site) of a new UPS 650 with like an 18' box. I could not see the Power Stroke badge on the doors so assume it was a V-10. Also it still had the Ford blue oval in the grill. Perhaps UPS has abandoned their policy of removing brand ID-or Ford gave them good pricing to leave it on.

 

How about it-any OAP employees who can comment on size of UPS order?

[RichardJensen]

all sorts of problems associated with the emissions system- def/ regen

 

Here's a theory:

 

With emissions regs tightening in the higher GVWR classes, an advantage might accrue to engine manufacturers that have extensive experience meeting those regs in lower classes.

[theoldwizard]

 

Here's a theory:

 

With emissions regs tightening in the higher GVWR classes, an advantage might accrue to engine manufacturers that have extensive experience meeting those regs in lower classes.

No theory ! FACT !!!

[jpd80]

 

Here's a theory:

 

With emissions regs tightening in the higher GVWR classes, an advantage might accrue to engine manufacturers that have extensive experience meeting those regs in lower classes.

We know that the EPA is now looking at Class 2B and setting fuel economy improvements,

I don't think that it's much of a stretch to suggest a broadening of that expectation to the

rest of the HD truck segment and possibly Medium Duty.

 

I know Cummins is popular with certain truck buyers but I wonder if the 6.7 Powerstroke

is now establish itself as a reliable Ford engine with power, torque fuel efficiency and

very few bad manners on the emission control side.

Edited November 11, 2016 by jpd80

[Bob Rosadini]

Well here is some sales info, Sept. YTD.

 

Class 3-4-5 Leader Ram at 43.45%, Ford 2nd at 34.21. Ram gain of .16% and Ford gain of .10% Next closest GM at 15.1% combined Chev/GM. Down from 15.3 last month. But watch GM as the Isuzu's hit the Chevy dealer lots.

 

Class 6 Ford still leader at 33.75%, up from 33.67 F'liner flat at 31.05% in 2nd. Nav. down to 20.9% (surprising) Hino up to 10.71% from10.68

 

Class 7 F'liner still leader at 47.3%-but down from 48.23% Nav in 2nd at 28.29% but up big time from 26.77%

 

Ford 5th of 6 in the class at 4.65%, down from 5.03% For the month Ford was last with Hino beating Ford. So IMO, big question is when does Ford marketing decide the 6.7 Power Stroke just isn't cutting it with class 7 buyers-and the V-10 is NOT an attractive gas option in class 7. Been a couple of weeks since I checked out the Altec lot next town over but last time I looked, Navistar and F'liner continued to own the big utility truck market. There were always a few 750's awaiting install in the Cummins days-not anymore.

 

On another positive note, local Jerr-Dan dealer has two 650 roll backs in stock ready to go-both Power Strokes.

 

As for class 8, F'liner continues to lead at 38.96% share-but down from 39.48 combined Paccar up to 28.5% from 28% and combined Volvo/M up slightly to 18.96. Nav down slightly to 11.04% but IMO I would bet they soon show a good bump. New HX vocational is starting to show up at dealers. And they also have a new replacement for ProStar OTR tractor

[RichardJensen]

big question is when does Ford marketing decide the 6.7 Power Stroke just isn't cutting it with class 7 buyers

 

You're assuming Ford cares about Class 7.

[Bob Rosadini]

 

You're assuming Ford cares about Class 7.

Well I hope the hell they do. Full yr. '15, Class 7 was 59m units and class 6 was 56m. Is the 750 cab in the same league as the F'liner or Navistar class 7's? Not quite-but close. In particular when you compare say to the tractor P & D market where a driver is in the truck all day it probably would not be the cab of choice-and even at that, it's not a bad alternative-in particular when price becomes a factor in the decision.

 

In any case, for plenty of vocational markets, it certainly is viable as it is, if it had a better power train choice. And to those who insist it would be too expensive with say a Cummins/Allison power train, I say how did the utilities that I see running around here with Bluediamond 750's justify that combo in prior years?

 

IMO it is low hanging fruit that is being ignored. I don't think Ford is that dumb to ignore a market that is larger than class 6 and which is a market Ford should be viable in.

 

The problem as I see it, is that someone pitched the OAP trucks as being competitive in class 7 with the in house power train. Guess what-the sales results are showing the truck is NOT competitive with that in house combo. And while you are at it, add a tandem axle. Again, we are not talking about a 46,000 lb rear that someone is going to add a tag to, but rather say a 34-40 where weight laws dictate that a 23,000 lb single axle just won't cut it.

 

Time to move on and get some economies of scale out of the decision to bring the trucks to Ohio.

[Ron W.]

But watch GM as the Isuzu's hit the Chevy dealer lots.

 

 

This bothers me, If they're selling Isuzus do those sales count as GM sales?

[Bob Rosadini]

 

This bothers me, If they're selling Isuzus do those sales count as GM sales?

They are badged as Chevrolets-IMO, they will sell very well.