mkaresh Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I like the VDS much better than the IQS. Good showing by domestic brands that sell to old people. Mercury is #2, with 151 problems per 100 cars. Lincoln is 11th, with 220, and Ford is 12, with 224. The average is 227. Full list: 2006 Nameplate Ranking Problems per 100 Vehicles Lexus 136 Mercury 151 Buick 153 Cadillac 163 Toyota 179 Acura 184 Honda 194 Jaguar 210 BMW 212 Infiniti 215 Lincoln 220 Ford 224 Oldsmobile 224 Industry Average 227 Chrysler 232 Pontiac 232 Subaru 232 GMC 239 Mercedes-Benz 240 Chevrolet 241 Nissan 242 Mazda 243 Porsche 248 Hyundai 253 Dodge 258 Mitsubishi 260 Jeep 264 Volvo 272 Audi 279 MINI 280 Isuzu 283 Saturn 289 Volkswagen 299 HUMMER 307 Kia 310 Suzuki 318 Saab 326 Land Rover 438 Two caveats with the VDS: 1. Old people report fewer problems, so brands that have older customers get a boost; no easy way around this one, it affects every quality and reliability study. Maybe I should ask birth year... 2. Third year isn't exactly long term. What I hear more and more is that people want to know how well a car holds up in years 5-8. Why is this important? Two words for you: resale value. J.D. Power's VDS used to track five-year-old cars, but manufacturers weren't interested in buying this info because cars that old had often already been redesigned, and thus there was little to learn from a product improvement standpoint. The Cadillac showing is the biggest surprise, because it includes the then-new CTS. Porsche's score got hammered by the new Cayenne, and I suspect that Saab's score is the result of the first-year new 9-3. It'll be interesting to see how my own results compare at http://www.truedelta.com/reliability.php. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 (edited) Hey Mr. Karesh... nice to see you on these boards as well . Here is Yahoo's full coverage. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060809/law079.html?.v=66 Igor Edited August 9, 2006 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman100 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Grand Marquis finished first amoung large cars, Crown Vic second. Town Car finished third in the large premium. Ranger finished first in small pick-ups, F-150 2nd in large. I think the Thunderbird made it in as well. Other than the F-150, all the others are dead or dying due to neglect. Maybe it is true - they can only screw them up by trying to "improve" them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 (edited) ^^This is 3 year study - meaning that the cars that were produced 3 years ago were evaluated. 2003 or 2004 model year. So cars like Fusion, 500 etc were not produced yet. On the other hand, with regards to the Sable, GM, CV, Ranger, etc, after building the same car for 10+ years, they better get the reliability thing right ... Don't you think? PS: Mustang made it as well, but like the F150, it is the old one Igor Edited August 9, 2006 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman100 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 That is a valid argument. Let me add one more observation on these vehicles: Grand Marquis - rear wheel drive Crown Vic - rear wheel drive Town Car - rear wheel drive Ranger - rear wheel drive Thunderbird - rear wheel drive Mustang - rear wheel drive F-150 - rear wheel drive What does all of these products have in common? My rule of thumb on Ford has always been they do rear wheel drive very well, but forget about anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 People always rationalize their bias. When Scion finished low, Toyota fans said "owners are young and pickier", same with "Buick/Mercury owners don't complain, they are old". Of course it is "Japan does it again" if any score high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Half and half. Expectation is largely part of the resulting view. Perhaps Buick and Mercury buyers (if they truly are the middle classes) are satisfied because they "moved up" to something they've never experienced before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenJ Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 People always rationalize their bias. When Scion finished low, Toyota fans said "owners are young and pickier", same with "Buick/Mercury owners don't complain, they are old". Of course it is "Japan does it again" if any score high. Screw rationalizations! I'm young and I love owning a big Merc! I also like the Sables my father used to buy. Good jog on Ford's be half! Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, and Jaguar all finished above industry average! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaydez Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 People always rationalize their bias. When Scion finished low, Toyota fans said "owners are young and pickier", same with "Buick/Mercury owners don't complain, they are old". Of course it is "Japan does it again" if any score high. I dont know... my grandfather used to have a 97 Grand Marquis (my brother bought it from him) It has 147k miles on it and still runs like its brand new.... The car had NO problems and and all he did was conplain about it. come to think about it I have never meet an old person who didnt complain aobut something.... but this reminds me of a quote I read once. I dont remember who said it but it was, "It's not that Buicks are reliable. It's that their owners are too old to remember the problems they have had." It was in response to the JD powers results from 2 or 3 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Greene Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 (edited) Maybe us "old" people just fix simple things ourselves or take the car in and get it fixed. Maybe we just don't think minor repairs are a big deal. Maybe we think everything mechanical breaks at some point, and you don't whine about it, you just fix it. And I know I can get better response from service writers and techs with this attitude VS constantly complaining about my car. I have never had the treatment from a car dealership many on here report. But I would't imply we are too dumb to know if something is poorly designed. Edited August 10, 2006 by Ralph Greene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 That is a valid argument. Let me add one more observation on these vehicles: Grand Marquis - rear wheel drive Crown Vic - rear wheel drive Town Car - rear wheel drive Ranger - rear wheel drive Thunderbird - rear wheel drive Mustang - rear wheel drive F-150 - rear wheel drive What does all of these products have in common? My rule of thumb on Ford has always been they do rear wheel drive very well, but forget about anything else. What do all of those REALLY have in common? They were all OLD models at the time of the evaluation. Grand Marquis, Crown Vic, Town Car -- all older than sin. Ranger -- ditto. Thunderbird -- had been out for a few years already. Mustang -- the model year being evaluated was on a platform that dated back 25 years. F-150 -- was the old model that debuted in 1996. I think them being RWD had little to do with it. What makes me wonder is how the numbers between Mercury and Ford can be off by so much. Which Ford models were really dragging them down compared to Mercury's lineup of mostly clones? Makes you wonder about the validity of such surveys. As others have pointed out....older people tend to report fewer problems. Could the age of buyers really be the only difference between Ford and Mercury (and several other brands for that matter)?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 In 2003 - Focus was barely getting up to speed with reliability. Sable showed up as reliable model, but somehow Taurus did not. Fianlly Expedition could be a culprit - just going thought hte mental list of unreliable Fords of 2003 that Mercury did not have. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 In 2003 - Focus was barely getting up to speed with reliability. Sable showed up as reliable model, but somehow Taurus did not. Fianlly Expedition could be a culprit - just going thought hte mental list of unreliable Fords of 2003 that Mercury did not have. Igor Another thing to consider is that Ford sells a lot more vehicles then Mercury. For example, in 2003 Ford was still working out the first model year issues in the Explorer, but the Mountaineer probably did not have as many issues with so many less on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 The escape wasn't available as a Mercury until recently. It had its own quality headaches. The Focus has never been a MErcury Mercury didn't sell a version of the Ranger, F-150, Expedition, Excursion, or Explorer SportTrac. They don't sell a version of the Econoline. Their minivan at the time was a previous generation Nissan Quest. Mercury's Lineup contained the Sable, Grand Marquis, Mountaineer, and the Villager. The mysitque was a few years dead. They had no small car. No small SUV. Their only truck was the Mountaineer. So, the real question here is, how did the clones stack up against one another? Sable Vs. Taurus Grand Marquise vs. CV Mountaineer vs. Explorer And, then, the one aberation unit, what was the problem rate on the old Nissan Quest based Villager? While Nissan's overall rating is much below Ford's and Mercury's, mayde this one unit was an aberation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bri719 Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 ^^This is 3 year study - meaning that the cars that were produced 3 years ago were evaluated. 2003 or 2004 model year. So cars like Fusion, 500 etc were not produced yet. On the other hand, with regards to the Sable, GM, CV, Ranger, etc, after building the same car for 10+ years, they better get the reliability thing right ... Don't you think? PS: Mustang made it as well, but like the F150, it is the old one Igor should only get better once you include Fusion... helping offset defects from earlier models, those like the Focus, Contour, or Windstar/Freestar which have been slammed for their reliability the most of Ford models Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
range Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) Very interesting to note that the first year (2003) 6.0 PowerStroke has turned out to be a reliable vehicle. Whatever initial problems it had, it ended up in the top 3 in dependability, surpassing all GM and DCX truck models. Edited August 11, 2006 by range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman100 Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 Remember, this study was of 2003 model year vehicles after 3 years of ownership. Nothing more, and nothing less. My experience has been Grand Marquis will need front suspension work around year 10, but other than that, nothing of major expense will normally occur until the interior finally gets worn out and stinky. But I have to say, even if the Grand Marquis came in last place in this survey, I really wouldn't care - I know from personal experience they are long lasting vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 What makes me wonder is how the numbers between Mercury and Ford can be off by so much. Nick- My question too. Assuming the models are all built in same plants- issue then has to be the various mix of models Ford vs Merc or perhaps it is the age issue. I think R Greene raises a valid point- I think some older buyers might be more inclined to live with a minor issue or to take care of it themselves. And we all know that the GM is the vehicle of choice of the "blue hair" set. In any case I have a new CV Sport on order- wish it had some upgrades but I'm sure a set of Flowmasters and chrome tips will make me FEEL like I'm driving a different one then my current 41G pkg. which is pushing 213,000 miles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted August 12, 2006 Share Posted August 12, 2006 USA Today had an article with a headline about Mercury's rise in quality; it also had a favorable article on the new Jag. By the way, I'm seeing a ton of Mercurys lately, mostly Mountaineers. But I haven't seen the Jill/better put Mercury on your list ads, lately. Where did she go? Get her back Ford! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bri719 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 USA Today had an article with a headline about Mercury's rise in quality; it also had a favorable article on the new Jag. By the way, I'm seeing a ton of Mercurys lately, mostly Mountaineers. But I haven't seen the Jill/better put Mercury on your list ads, lately. Where did she go? Get her back Ford! ha, I was seeing her a ton up until a month ago.... I wonder what happened, perhaps just dropped her to ready to run a new campaign. or readying a new wave of those ads. but dropping them entirely would be a big deal seeing how it's pretty much their whole tv deal I think I remember one 15 second ad where they actually worked in a "Jill" lookalike. they pull back at the end and it's a different (but similar) looking chick at the end doing the "spokesmodel hands" out the sunroof. now, they definitely had me wondering where they were going with that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted August 13, 2006 Share Posted August 13, 2006 I'm still seeing Jill on practically every channel in LA :D here's a fix to hold you guys over... MERCURY: the highest rated American car brand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 14, 2006 Share Posted August 14, 2006 She was in FHM back a couple months ago as part of a photo shoot promoting the new Blade Show on Spike TV...not sure if the pix hit the net yet. They said she got a new Montego for doing the Mercury Spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo_diesel_focus Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Well, all this moaning makes me laugh!! WELL DONE is all I am saying! 2nd Place is extreamly positive. Hopefully next time Lincoln and Ford Will round up the top 5! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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