"Should Lincoln, Ford's Legendary Luxury Brand, Head to the Scrap Heap?"

[akirby]

I think all that product would be great, but I want to give them a little longer than that. I'd say 2 more generations of that product, and then we can judge.

 

The Autoblog podcast, for example, was just talking last week about whether Cadillac's excellent product now "deserves" to be priced at German levels, and again, Caddy has been at this from a planning and engineering standpoint for 15+ years and, market-wise, 3 CTS generations, 2 SRX generations, 1 ATS generation, and 1 XTS generation. I don't count the 'Slade for various reasons.

 

Lincoln, by contrast, we're talking about 1 new MKZ generation, kinda, since as was pointed out above, the team they hired to really do the renaissance wasn't even fully in place for the MKZ. They've got a LONG way to go... I'm not judging this for a long time...

 

BTW: I don't have time to look it up now, but the MKZ is in no way a sales flop. In fact, I'd bet it's doing better than the first year of the CTS did in the early 2000's. They're setting MKZ model records for it and it's won some customer satisfaction awards with, let's all admit, a near historically botched launch.

 

The MKZ only has $750-$1K in incentives while the ATS has $3K. Ford is keeping MSRP and ATPs high and seems content with higher profit on (relatively) lower volume for now. If they put $3K on the hood they'd probably sell 4K-4500 MKZs easily.

[nruggiero]

If Mercury wasn't murdered, Lincoln WOULD NOT have to be catering to the low-end of the market(volume segments)..... Right now, they have no choice.

 

I DO NOT want Lincoln to be a BMW copy, but I do want them to build "true luxury" products like the Model K, Continental, and Mark Series.... That's why we love Lincoln.

 

BTW, BMW, Mercedes, and Audi aren't considered luxury brands, imo.... They're premium.... Luxury is exclusive, not mass marketed.

Edited September 23, 2013 by nruggiero

[Iiari]

The MKZ only has $750-$1K in incentives while the ATS has $3K. Ford is keeping MSRP and ATPs high and seems content with higher profit on (relatively) lower volume for now. If they put $3K on the hood they'd probably sell 4K-4500 MKZs easily.

I would bet that's true. It's also one of the reasons (but not all) that a $51K+ ATS is actually coming in with lower lease rates on the online configurators than a $46K MKZ. Fords profit per vehicle at that level is probably greater...

 

Just to be clear, though, I was comparing sales to the first gen CTS above. Does GM break down sales by vehicle line? I can't find recent monthly ATS sales. A recent Automotive News article notes that average incentives for the ATS through the first six months of 2013 are $4,088 per vehicle...

[2b2]

 

See - this is where you're absolutely wrong, but at least it explains why you're so skeptical. The MKS was engineered and designed in 2005-2006. This was before Mulally took over. It was before Ford sold off the PAG brands. It was before they hired Max Wolff and gave Lincoln a dedicated team of over 100 folks. It was before they killed Mercury and culled the dealer ranks. There is absolutely nothing about the current MKS that bears any relationship to what Lincoln is planning now.

 

Even the MKZ was already finished when Max took over and he was only able to make a few subtle changes. The MKC is the first "clean sheet" Lincoln to come out of the new regime and that's why we should wait and see. It will be at least 1-2 more years until we see the complete picture of where Lincoln is going, so criticising what they did 4-6 years ago is silly.

 

Oops........I mean........

 

OK

well said :thumbup: &

 

HowEver

- the MKS with the short comings you list, is STILL on sale

- FLincMoCo is STILL sputtering along on one-if-we/they're-lucky new model per year**

 

I have no doubts about WHAT Lincoln *can* build,

just misgivings about When/If they'll ever get enough of the lineup up to snuff At-One-Time to cross the crucial perception-threshold

which

for a web-fan-atic, is made worse by the quantum-leap FLincMoCo seems to have taken in keeping their **future schedule of releases so deliberately confusing

[akirby]

If Mercury wasn't murdered, Lincoln WOULD NOT have to be catering to the low-end of the market(volume segments)..... Right now, they have no choice.

 

I DO NOT want Lincoln to be a BMW copy, but I do want them to build "true luxury" products like the Model K, Continental, and Mark Series.... That's why we love Lincoln.

 

BTW, BMW, Mercedes, and Audi aren't considered luxury brands, imo.... They're premium.... Luxury is exclusive, not mass marketed.

 

If your definition of luxury is exclusive very low volume - I don't think Ford is interested. The volume and profits are in the premium segment as you define it.

[akirby]

HowEver

- the MKS with the short comings you list, is STILL on sale

- FLincMoCo is STILL sputtering along on one-if-we/they're-lucky new model per year**

 

Of course the old stuff is STILL on sale. What's the alternative? Kill everything except the MKZ?

[nruggiero]

If your definition of luxury is exclusive very low volume - I don't think Ford is interested. The volume and profits are in the premium segment as you define it.

True Lincolns will start around $70,000 with the flagship at $250,000..... It's already planned.

 

I just want Lincoln to stay out of the premium class(like it should), and let Mercury handle it..... Maybe when Mulally retires.

Edited September 23, 2013 by nruggiero

[2b2]

^ in today's dollars, imho $39,999 to $99,999 would be near ideal for quite a while

a$ the Lincoln$' $egment

 

Of course the old stuff is STILL on sale. What's the alternative? Kill everything except the MKZ?

 

actually,

I'm sorta/rather COUNTING ON FLincMoCo bringing out new models a bit more quickly ... eventually

Edited September 23, 2013 by 2b2

[akirby]

^ in today's dollars, imho $39,999 to $99,999 would be near ideal for quite a while

a$ the Lincoln$' $egment

 

 

actually,

I'm sorta/rather COUNTING ON FLincMoCo bringing out new models a bit more quickly ... eventually

 

I respect that they're trying to do it right rather then rushing it too quickly. Don't forget this is about more than just the vehicles.

[Iiari]

If Mercury wasn't murdered, Lincoln WOULD NOT have to be catering to the low-end of the market(volume segments)..... Right now, they have no choice.

 

I DO NOT want Lincoln to be a BMW copy, but I do want them to build "true luxury" products like the Model K, Continental, and Mark Series.... That's why we love Lincoln.

But up to $100-205K!?!? Not in the next 15 years I would say absolutely not, maybe 30 years is feasible, but really?!?! Caddy won't have a 7/S competitor until about 20 years after their modernization started, and you're talking prices higher than that...

 

Frankly, I personally have no problem with Lincoln being an Acura-esque or Buick-esque brand. Something premium above mainstream. If, in that sense, it's a "better Mercury," than who cares so long as the cars are compelling? I have no idea if Ford wants to do that or make it into some kind of quasi-Rolls as you're describing with 200 grand models, but whether they want to be Acura or RR, their vehicles will have to execute and have the appropriate sense of occasion to do either in those respective classes

 

just misgivings about When/If they'll ever get enough of the lineup up to snuff At-One-Time to cross the crucial perception-threshold

which

for a web-fan-atic, is made worse by the quantum-leap FLincMoCo seems to have taken in keeping their **future schedule of releases so deliberately confusin

 

I'll agree it's a relaxed schedule to be sure compared with, say, Cadillac, which will have brought out the XTS, ATS, CTS, and 'Slade in rapid succession, but one per year for now I think is not unreasonable and once all of the models are "modern" that refreshing schedule won't be unreasonable. What worries me about ALL domestic makers is their willness to let refresh schedules slip. Foreign makes pretty much do militant 6 years or less. We'll see what Ford and GM do...

Edited September 23, 2013 by Iiari

[2b2]

^ that sounds a bit like double-think to me (no offense meant, Iiari)

 

unless Lincoln cuts back to around 3½ models, the lineup will NEVER be "all modern" at a rate of one new (OR "significantly refreshed") one per year

Edited September 24, 2013 by 2b2

[nruggiero]

But up to $100-205K!?!? Not in the next 15 years I would say absolutely not, maybe 30 years is feasible, but really?!?! Caddy won't have a 7/S competitor until about 20 years after their modernization started, and you're talking prices higher than that...

 

Frankly, I personally have no problem with Lincoln being an Acura-esque or Buick-esque brand. Something premium above mainstream. If, in that sense, it's a "better Mercury," than who cares so long as the cars are compelling? I have no idea if Ford wants to do that or make it into some kind of quasi-Rolls as you're describing with 200 grand models, but whether they want to be Acura or RR, their vehicles will have to execute and have the appropriate sense of occasion to do either in those respective classes

Historically, that's what Lincoln was and should be..... The time is unknown for the flagship, but the 4 door coupe will be on the lots within 2-4 years.

 

If Ford wanted to seriously compete against Acura and nothing more, they would've kept Mercury.

[All-Or-Nothing]

A great many have and continue to vote with dollars for rwd, which has kept most series of Benz and BMW going forever.

 

 

People aren't buying BMWs and Mercs because of RWD. Nice try tho'

[Iiari]

People aren't buying BMWs and Mercs because of RWD. Nice try tho'

Here in New England, I would guess 90+% of the premium vehicles in my workplace parking lot of all makes are AWD variants, including the Lincolns. No one cares about RWD here, and Audi's rise has proven to everyone that premium can be done with AWD on the back of FWD platforms...

[Iiari]

Historically, that's what Lincoln was and should be..... The time is unknown for the flagship, but the 4 door coupe will be on the lots within 2-4 years.

 

If Ford wanted to seriously compete against Acura and nothing more, they would've kept Mercury.

Well, there are lots of things that lots of companies were historically. Talk to Blackberry about history right now, or look at IBM then and now... Times move on, customer expectations change, etc, etc.

 

A combination of BMW driving dynamic and Lexus sybaritic interiors, MB aesthetics, and Volvo safely have won the minds and hearts of buyers, and those things are now expectations of all premium cars, and no longer brand characteristics. This is one of the reasons my dearly departed Saab failed. What used to be Saab brand promises became the default for all cars. What's left? What's the something unique?

 

Ford has to invent a "something unique" for Licoln, more than they're doing now, but their public statements indicate they know that. Ford has made clear they are aiming at the largest premium volume areas and not looking to fill every niche like the Germans are doing, so no multiple roofline MKC's or MKZ's coming for us. I think it's unclear right now if Ford wants to compete against Acura/Buick or Caddy/Germans. I'd agree with others that if it's Caddy/Germans, then they need to kick it up a notch from the MKZ's and C's on the lauchpad now. If it's the Acura/Buick approach, then they're on target. I think Mercury was/is irrelevant to conversation now. Again, if Lincoln's future is as a "better Mercury," then I'm OK with that...

Edited September 24, 2013 by Iiari

[akirby]

Ford isn't looking to "compete" with anybody specifically. They're looking to sell vehicles profitably. Calling yourself a "BMW fighter" just limits your focus and opportunities.

[2b2]

Agree that: "Ford isn't looking to "compete" with anybody specifically."

in fact

I wouldn't be too surprised if FLincMoCo sorta wants/expects any brand with Lux-intentions to eventually have to re-align their goals to better compete WITH LINCOLN

(that was carefully worded :wink: )

 

 

 

I have more but haven't figured out how to say it yet

 

[aneekr]

Ford isn't looking to "compete" with anybody specifically.

 

That's a key problem with Ford's current Lincoln experiment. Other players in the premium car segment, for the most part, compete to win. Lincoln hasn't even shown up for the game!

[EBFlex]

That's a key problem with Ford's current Lincoln experiment. Other players in the premium car segment, for the most part, compete to win. Lincoln hasn't even shown up for the game!

 

Well, they have showed up, after everyone has moved on...and they showed up grossly unprepared.

 

Major leagues vs minor leagues. NBA vs WNBA. NFL vs XFL. Coke vs Tab. Wal-Mart vs K-Mart. Fox News vs anyone else. Chrome vs Internet Explorer.

 

2/5

Edited September 29, 2013 by EBFlex

[akirby]

That's a key problem with Ford's current Lincoln experiment. Other players in the premium car segment, for the most part, compete to win. Lincoln hasn't even shown up for the game!

 

That's because they didn't get serious about it until 2 years ago. You don't rebuild an entire vehicle lineup and dealership experience in only 2 years. How long did it take BMW? It took Lexus over 10 years - maybe 20.

 

Pointing to Lincoln and saying they're a failure now is like pointing at an expansion football team in their second year and saying that they'll never ever win their division. It's ridiculous.

[akirby]

Well, they have showed up, after everyone has moved on...and they showed up grossly unprepared.

 

That's interesting since we haven't seen one single new production vehicle from the new Lincoln team yet.

 

But don't let facts stop you - they never have before.

[Bored of Pisteon]

The precarious nature of the entire economy right now in general is basically what is in play. I don't want to see Lincoln entirely disappear but it's time to revisit the glory days of the past in order to have a healthier future. That means revisiting a Continental revival with the right look, the right drivetrain, and the right price. Right now! Lincoln is a middle of the road brand in my opinion, however if I had the money and the chance I'd buy a new Lincoln product most certainly.

[NickF1011]

The precarious nature of the entire economy right now in general is basically what is in play. I don't want to see Lincoln entirely disappear but it's time to revisit the glory days of the past in order to have a healthier future. That means revisiting a Continental revival with the right look, the right drivetrain, and the right price. Right now! Lincoln is a middle of the road brand in my opinion, however if I had the money and the chance I'd buy a new Lincoln product most certainly.

So you think during a precarious economy is the most ideal time to launch an expensive flagship vehicle?

[Bored of Pisteon]

So you think during a precarious economy is the most ideal time to launch an expensive flagship vehicle?

Depends on if there is an underlying demand for one. Seems to me that irregardless of the price of gas lately, People still seem to buy those so-called "gas guzzling SUV's and pick-up trucks" Why not add a classic, modernized car to the list of choices? Even if it's a limited production run of several years or so.(maybe more) I'm sure some people, even collectors would jump at the opportunity and make sure you give them plenty of options just like back in the day. 2 door coupes, 4 door sedans, your choice of motors, transmissions. Interior seating. Suspension choices, extended wheelbases, etc. the whole nine yards.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Bored of Pisteon

[NickF1011]

Depends on if there is an underlying demand for one. Seems to me that irregardless of the price of gas lately, People still seem to buy those so-called "gas guzzling SUV's and pick-up trucks" Why not add a classic, modernized car to the list of choices? Even if it's a limited production run of several years or so.(maybe more) I'm sure some people, even collectors would jump at the opportunity and make sure you give them plenty of options just like back in the day. 2 door coupes, 4 door sedans, your choice of motors, transmissions. Interior seating. Suspension choices, extended wheelbases, etc. the whole nine yards.

You're talking about a very expensive proposition with as yet undetermined demand. I think their current plan of consistently improving their existing products while expanding into more predictable markets (like MKC) bodes far better for a brand trying to ride out tough times.