"Should Lincoln, Ford's Legendary Luxury Brand, Head to the Scrap Heap?"

[ZanatWork]

...and 2013, I believe.

[papilgee4evaeva]

...and 2013, I believe.

 

Correct.

 

Heck, I can't argue with it.

[akirby]

I thought this was the COTY thread and they were asking if the CTS had also won previously.

[jpd80]

Winning a bag of awards didn't help ATS, it now has inventory at over 17,200 and 167 selling days...

[akirby]

Winning a bag of awards didn't help ATS, it now has inventory at over 17,200 and 167 selling days...

 

And that's with $3K incentives in place for the last several months.

[jpd80]

 

And that's with $3K incentives in place for the last several months.

I have a theory on this.

A lot of the push for Cadillac and other luxury brands like Lincoln to make RWD Luxury performance vehicles comes from non-buyers

when it seems the majority of actual luxury car buyers don't see that feature as an essential in their purchasing decision.

It's as though Cadillac is chasing niche buyers when there's plenty of compact-mid sized luxury buyers who would

buy FWD-AWD based vehicles just as readily as the RWD versions. Is that added cost really justified?

 

So yeah, I'm saying it - A Verano based ATS would have probably sold in the same volume as the Alpha ATS but with less cost to GM.

Worse than that, splitting the previous CTS market into two vehicles is probably a zero nett gain in sales over just replacing Sigma CTS.

GM has invested a lot of funds into aligning its products with BMW 3 and 5 series but are they missing the point of why people bought the Sigma CTS?

 

and it only a theory on observation (not proven).

Edited November 12, 2013 by jpd80

[akirby]

Bingo. People think that buyers want RWD high performance vehicles because that's what gets the publicity. When in fact they're niche vehicles and a lot of those vehicles are sold because of the badge, the prestige and the service experience rather than performance and Cadillac and Lincoln can't match that right now.

 

The volume is in small to midsized sedans, crossovers and suvs and those don't have to be high performance RWD to be successful. Look at the Lexus ES and RX - those are the poster children for a successful high volume luxury brand.

[papilgee4evaeva]

My theory:

 

GM new-car buyers tend to wait until the vehicles become as cheap as possible before they buy them. And that's partly GM's fault... they created the rebate and year-end blowout monster, but now they have to keep feeding it.

 

I have spoken to many a GM fan that has said "boy, I really love XY car and it's on my short list... I'll wait until the price comes down at the end of the model year before I go shopping."

 

Unfortunately for Cadillac, this includes them.

[twintornados]

.....that's partly GM's fault... they created the rebate and year-end blowout monster, but now they have to keep feeding it....

Actually, I believe it was Chrysler that came out with the rebate deals....I remember Iacocca crowing to the camera..."Buy a car, get a check!"

[papilgee4evaeva]

Actually, I believe it was Chrysler that came out with the rebate deals....I remember Iacocca crowing to the camera..."Buy a car, get a check!"

 

... and GM decided to emulate that to the point that it's the only way they can move sufficient volume?

 

Still their fault for creating their own monster. (Just like it's Acura's fault for creating the ZDX in order to follow the BMW X6... but I digress)

[entropy]

NO, Lincoln should NOT "Head to the Scrap Heap".

At one point they made my favorite car of all all the cars i've owned: 1994 Mark VIII.

 

They can do something great again.

[BrewfanGRB]

Oh, I've said plainly that the Fusion is better than the Camry/Avalon, and that the MKZ is better than the ES...but all defense of Lincoln nowadays starts with "...yeah, but the MKZ..." because the rest of the line, minus the MKX, is floundering. Even said MKZ, as addressed in the article, is having less of a sales spike than the 3-series in the current auto sales boom...despite being the shining light of the Lincoln lineup.

 

Lexus and Infiniti bruought proper flagships when they debuted. Acura did not. Lincoln is, time and time again, asked for a proper rear-drive vehicle and further differentiation from the Ford donors because, in many cases, it's been far too obvious. Lincoln is trapped in the same "wannabe" status that Acura is in.

 

The article re-states what has been stated repeatedly before, and this won't quit until Lincoln either defines itself as a true luxury brand...or fails. I know there will be years in the gray area until one fate or the other happens, but in the meantime...the same statements will continue, and the basic appearance is that Lincoln is being asked for something it hasn't provided, and is selling at less than half of what it should to be even vaguely successful.

 

This is just the latest version of observations that are very similar, from different sources. I truly hope it takes less than the (again) surmised decade to right the ship.

 

 

 

This RWD nonsense is sooo freaking tired. And the fact writers bring it up is even worse. People DO NOT BUY BMWs BECAUSE THEY ARE RWD. Why is this so damn hard to understand? Ok, fine. SOME, obviously, do buy a RWD because it's RWD, but I guarantee you 1) a huge chunk of the buyers don't know or don't even care it's RWD and 2) aren't refusing to buy an MKZ simply because it's FWD.

 

As for the "They've only got 1-2 models and their improvement is taking too long" griping, just what exactly (and because you've pointed out all the experience, skill and knowledge you have in the industry, I do mean EXACTLY) is it that you want to Lincoln to do? And if this demand can be done without a multi-billion dollar investment, how EXACTLY is that done? If it does take a multi-billion dollar investment, you'd be perfectly ok with that with ZERO complaining? And again, if it does take a multi-billion dollar investment, how EXACTLY is that done without affecting investment in Ford's product developement in ANY WAY? Note: Develop a RWD platform and introduce 5 new vehicles in 2 years is not an acceptable answer because although this is the internet, it's not a science fiction site.

[BrewfanGRB]

A great many have and continue to vote with dollars for rwd, which has kept most series of Benz and BMW going forever.

 

It's utterly preposterous you think people are voting for RWD when they choose to buy a Benz or BMW. Again, no doubt that some are, but it's certainly untrue to unilaterally say "When people buy a BMW, they are voting for RWD." Your refusal to acknowledge an alternative could be true means your credibility in the argument is near zero.

[akirby]

It's utterly preposterous you think people are voting for RWD when they choose to buy a Benz or BMW. Again, no doubt that some are, but it's certainly untrue to unilaterally say "When people buy a BMW, they are voting for RWD." Your refusal to acknowledge an alternative could be true means your credibility in the argument is near zero.

80% of 1 series drivers think they're FWD.

[BrewfanGRB]

But as far as the crossovers go, can the people buying them actually take care of them?. I mean maintain them, keep them clean. The simple answer is NO. Do you ever look at how people treat their cars? Brand new $30,000+ cars caked with mud, dirt, scratched up and dented in. yeah real classy. Shows you how disposable society has become as a whole doesn't it?

 

The crossover market caters to the novice or the typical everyday car consumer we all can agree on that but I just don't think the crossover will be a long term wise investment. The limited run vehicle would and so would the price.

 

Huh? What the heck are you talking about? What does that have to do with how many vehicles Ford can sell?

[BrewfanGRB]

That is an amazingly weak argument and really shows how far people will reach to defend this imitation luxury brand.

 

The fact is, Lincoln has been in its "rebirth" since the introduction of the MKS or even the MKX. The MKX as the first new Lincoln vehicle in years but the MKS debuted the Pontiac-ish styling that hey are still using today for some reason.

 

 

This is an amazingly weak argument. It also has the disadvantage for you of being untrue. Oh well. Keep trying!

[BrewfanGRB]

 

For instance, I do like the look of the MKZ - but in reality it is (for the most part) a Ford Fusion underneath. Some of the body panels & other exterior elements may be different - but to me it's just a fancy Fusion.

 

Then you're wildly uninformed and incorrect. You're going off presumption, wrong info in press and hyperbole from people on this site.

 

Also: Ask yourself how many BMWs are are the same "underneath". I mean...you don't REALLY think every single model BMW sells has its own PLATFORM do you? Then again, based on what you believe about the MKZ, maybe you do.

[fordtech1]

The only reason BMW and mercedes does not get hit with "it's a tarted up ***" because they don't have a lesser brand. If BMW had a lesser brand like honda - acura, Toyota - lexus, etc. they would share platforms and tech.

Since they are mostly just one luxury brand from the get go they are held to a different light.

 

Now all that said, Lincoln needs to keep working on separating from its parent company. But that is expensive and takes time. Also, IMHO you can take about any vehicle in the same class and put it next to each other and say "boy they look the same". Manufacturers do a good job of imitating each other.

[Iiari]

The only reason BMW and mercedes does not get hit with "it's a tarted up ***" because they don't have a lesser brand. If BMW had a lesser brand like honda - acura, Toyota - lexus, etc. they would share platforms and tech.

Since they are mostly just one luxury brand from the get go they are held to a different light.

 

Now all that said, Lincoln needs to keep working on separating from its parent company. But that is expensive and takes time. Also, IMHO you can take about any vehicle in the same class and put it next to each other and say "boy they look the same". Manufacturers do a good job of imitating each other.

Actually, now, BMW does have a lesser brand, MINI, and they actually do a lot of platform and parts sharing.

 

Listen, does the average public care about RWD, or details of stability systems, or who parts are shared with? Of course not. Put consumers DO care about "image," and for better or worse, there are "imaging makers" and shapers out there, and for better or worse the enthusiast press is a big component of that. And the enthusiast press is going to keep pummeling Lincoln until they do an exclusive model, RWD or not.

 

If I'm Ford, I frankly would spend the money to do a 4 door coupe based on the Mustang platform just to shut up the "image makers." Even it it loses money, they could write it off as a Lincoln marketing expense, possibly the best marketing of all.

 

Look at Lexus, for example. Their big money makers are the ES and RX, which are "gussied up" Toyotas. BMW's big sellers share platforms and parts with MINI. Audi/VW share all over the place. Why do they get passes on this? Because all those brands do bespoke models with bespoke platforms that elevate their place in the brand pecking order in the opinion of the "image makers."

 

I personally have zero problem that my upcoming MKZ shares a lot with the Fusion. I don't want the Fusion, I want the MKZ. And obviously (witness the new MKC) LIncoln gets they need to more and better differentiation. I agree. But I also think long term, just to shut up the press, they need to do a flagship four door Mustang.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Iiari

[akirby]

Ford figured out years ago that what the press says doesn't have an impact on sales.

[fordtech1]

Actually, now, BMW does have a lesser brand, MINI, and they actually do a lot of platform and parts sharing.

 

Listen, does the average public care about RWD, or details of stability systems, or who parts are shared with? Of course not. Put consumers DO care about "image," and for better or worse, there are "imaging makers" and shapers out there, and for better or worse the enthusiast press is a big component of that. And the enthusiast press is going to keep pummeling Lincoln until they do an exclusive model, RWD or not.

 

If I'm Ford, I frankly would spend the money to do a 4 door coupe based on the Mustang platform just to shut up the "image makers." Even it it loses money, they could write it off as a Lincoln marketing expense, possibly the best marketing of all.

 

Look at Lexus, for example. Their big money makers are the ES and RX, which are "gussied up" Toyotas. BMW's big sellers share platforms and parts with MINI. Audi/VW share all over the place. Why do they get passes on this? Because all those brands do bespoke models with bespoke platforms that elevate their place in the brand pecking order in the opinion of the "image makers."

 

I personally have zero problem that my upcoming MKZ shares a lot with the Fusion. I don't want the Fusion, I want the MKZ. And obviously (witness the new MKC) LIncoln gets they need to more and better differentiation. I agree. But I also think long term, just to shut up the press, they need to do a flagship four door Mustang.

 

I do think Lincoln is coming up with a RWD vehicle. The DEW98 was supposed to be the 05 mustang. However, the D2C platform is a cheaper version of the DEW98. I would bet they are working on a Lincoln verison. Seems like it would be easy to use it again for Lincoln specific use. Not sure if it will be 2dr or 4dr. I heard rumors of a performance coupe like the Mark VIII. I did see a leaping horse in Dearborn running the track. By the way, the DEW98 platform had a great suspension design but built with crappy parts. They wear quickly and cost to repair with OE parts is out of sight. Time will tell.