"Should Lincoln, Ford's Legendary Luxury Brand, Head to the Scrap Heap?"

[Bored of Pisteon]

You're talking about a very expensive proposition with as yet undetermined demand. I think their current plan of consistently improving their existing products while expanding into more predictable markets (like MKC) bodes far better for a brand trying to ride out tough times.

I know, but I think this whole crossover thing is starting to take it's toll. Face it, all of the manufacturers vehicles design cars that all look the same now. You need a distinctive brand with a stand out vehicle to get people talking about the product and the brand as a whole and personally; some little crossover isn't gonna cut it. Sorry. but traditionalists like myself won't buy a compact crossover or any crossover for that matter.

 

I'm just tired of getting confused by which one is which anymore. Irregardless of who makes what or where.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Bored of Pisteon

[NickF1011]

I know, but I think this whole crossover thing is starting to take it's toll. Face it, all of the manufacturers vehicles design cars that all look the same now. You need a distinctive brand with a stand out vehicle to get people talking about the product and the brand as a whole and personally some little crossover isn't gonna cut it. Sorry. but traditionalists like myself won't by a compact crossover or any crossover for that matter.

Taking its toll on who exactly? Ford is making tons of money selling these crossovers that "all look the same". I'm also tired of hearing that from people. In my opinion, there's more variety to design than ever before in the history of the automobile, even within vehicle types. Most buyers today would be confused when trying to tell apart most vehicles from the 50's and 60's and would likely tell you they "all looked the same" back then too. It's simply a matter of what you were raised with.

 

As for who is and isn't buying them, frankly, the market of people who are buying compact crossovers is a lot bigger than that of "traditionalists" who would want a Contitental-type vehicle as you described, so your complaint there would likely fall on deaf ears at any automaker, not just Ford. The proof is in the pudding. How many compact crossovers are on the market now? How many full-size sedans that come in the array of configurations you described?

 

And one last note: having people talk about your vehicle doesn't mean people will actually buy it. Lots of people talk about the Volt...

Edited October 2, 2013 by NickF1011

[akirby]

I know, but I think this whole crossover thing is starting to take it's toll. Face it, all of the manufacturers vehicles design cars that all look the same now. You need a distinctive brand with a stand out vehicle to get people talking about the product and the brand as a whole and personally; some little crossover isn't gonna cut it. Sorry. but traditionalists like myself won't buy a compact crossover or any crossover for that matter.

 

I'm just tired of getting confused by which one is which anymore. Irregardless of who makes what or where.

 

Go pick your favorite super expensive flagship vehicle and note the sales volume for August. Then go compare that to the Lexus RX or Caddy SRX sales volume.

 

There is no comparison.

[Bored of Pisteon]

Taking its toll on who exactly? Ford is making tons of money selling these crossovers that "all look the same". I'm also tired of hearing that from people. In my opinion, there's more variety to design than ever before in the history of the automobile, even within vehicle types. Most buyers today would be confused when trying to tell apart most vehicles from the 50's and 60's and would likely tell you they "all looked the same" back then too. It's simply a matter of what you were raised with.

 

As for who is and isn't buying them, frankly, the market of people who are buying compact crossovers is a lot bigger than that of "traditionalists" who would want a Contitental-type vehicle as you described, so your complaint there would likely fall on deaf ears at any automaker, not just Ford. The proof is in the pudding. How many compact crossovers are on the market now? How many full-size sedans that come in the array of configurations you described?

 

And one last note: having people talk about your vehicle doesn't mean people will actually buy it. Lots of people talk about the Volt...

But as far as the crossovers go, can the people buying them actually take care of them?. I mean maintain them, keep them clean. The simple answer is NO. Do you ever look at how people treat their cars? Brand new $30,000+ cars caked with mud, dirt, scratched up and dented in. yeah real classy. Shows you how disposable society has become as a whole doesn't it?

 

The crossover market caters to the novice or the typical everyday car consumer we all can agree on that but I just don't think the crossover will be a long term wise investment. The limited run vehicle would and so would the price.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Bored of Pisteon

[akirby]

The crossover market caters to the novice or the typical everyday car consumer we all can agree on that but I just don't think the crossover will be a long term wise investment. The limited run vehicle would and so would the price.

 

Who cares whether they keep them washed or not - THEY SELL LIKE HOTCAKES.

 

Did you go look up RX and SRX sales like I asked?

[Iiari]

...these crossovers that "all look the same". I'm also tired of hearing that from people. In my opinion, there's more variety to design than ever before in the history of the automobile, even within vehicle types. Most buyers today would be confused when trying to tell apart most vehicles from the 50's and 60's and would likely tell you they "all looked the same" back then too. It's simply a matter of what you were raised with...

I was with you until this point. I would disagree with that on several fronts. While styling sophistication is arguably at an all time high, I think due to regulations (especially the Euro pedestrian impact) that styling has become somewhat uniform. And just due to trends, there are a lot of similarities. Squint at a distance and the design languages of Infiniti, Lexus, Kia, and Mazda can be difficult to pick apart. Also, German aesthetics and Lexus-like interiors have won this round of automotive design history, and we see a lot of uniformity there.

 

Go back, say, 30 years ago and you see WAAAY more design and philosophy difference in the premium class than today. Look at Volvo bricks, Saab quirkiness, MB stateliness, BMW sportiness, Jag sexiness, Lincoln/Caddy floating barges with opera lights and padded roofs. Compare that to today.

 

While I don't agree with the OP on anything else, I do agree that the CUV's are fairly uniform in design. They are all basically two-box designs with different grilles and taillights. Take the recent Jag crossover concept and cover up the taillights and grille/headlights and the rest could be positively ANYTHING.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Iiari

[NickF1011]

But as far as the crossovers go, can the people buying them actually take care of them?. I mean maintain them, keep them clean. The simple answer is NO. Do you ever look at how people treat their cars? Brand new $30,000+ cars caked with mud, dirt, scratched up and dented in. yeah real classy. Shows you how disposable society has become as a whole doesn't it?

 

The crossover market caters to the novice or the typical everyday car consumer we all can agree on that but I just don't think the crossover will be a long term wise investment. The limited run vehicle would and so would the price.

I own a newer crossover. I also own a Mustang that is now going on 17 years old. Yep. We novices certainly don't take care of our cars. Give me a break. The popular vehicles of any era were mostly bought by "novice" or "typical every day car consumers". Why do you think there are so few surviving copies of popular vehicles like 50's Bel Airs or 60's Impalas? Nobody took care of them either. Mainstream vehicles have always been designed to be disposable. It's how automakers have remained relevant all this time.

 

Oh, and one reason you see a lot more newer vehicles that might be in bad shape these days? There's a lot more new vehicles on the road today than there used to be!!

Edited October 3, 2013 by NickF1011

[NickF1011]

I was with you until this point. I would disagree with that on several fronts. While styling sophistication is arguably at an all time high, I think due to regulations (especially the Euro pedestrian impact) that styling has become somewhat uniform. And just due to trends, there are a lot of similarities. Squint at a distance and the design languages of Infiniti, Lexus, Kia, and Mazda can be difficult to pick apart. Also, German aesthetics and Lexus-like interiors have won this round of automotive design history, and we see a lot of uniformity there.

 

Go back, say, 30 years ago and you see WAAAY more design and philosophy difference in the premium class than today. Look at Volvo bricks, Saab quirkiness, MB stateliness, BMW sportiness, Jag sexiness, Lincoln/Caddy floating barges with opera lights and padded roofs. Compare that to today.

 

While I don't agree with the OP on anything else, I do agree that the CUV's are fairly uniform in design. They are all basically two-box designs with different grilles and taillights. Take the recent Jag crossover concept and cover up the taillights and grille/headlights and the rest could be positively ANYTHING.

If you asked me to identify almost any sedan built in the 1950's or 1960's from 100 yards away I probably couldn't. :shrug: I stand by my opinion.

 

As for comparing today, you're going to tell me that a Land Rover Evoque isn't recognizable from a BMW X3 from a distance?

Edited October 3, 2013 by NickF1011

[mustang84isu]

I think all that product would be great, but I want to give them a little longer than that. I'd say 2 more generations of that product, and then we can judge.

 

The Autoblog podcast, for example, was just talking last week about whether Cadillac's excellent product now "deserves" to be priced at German levels, and again, Caddy has been at this from a planning and engineering standpoint for 15+ years and, market-wise, 3 CTS generations, 2 SRX generations, 1 ATS generation, and 1 XTS generation. I don't count the 'Slade for various reasons.

 

Lincoln, by contrast, we're talking about 1 new MKZ generation, kinda, since as was pointed out above, the team they hired to really do the renaissance wasn't even fully in place for the MKZ. They've got a LONG way to go... I'm not judging this for a long time...

 

BTW: I don't have time to look it up now, but the MKZ is in no way a sales flop. In fact, I'd bet it's doing better than the first year of the CTS did in the early 2000's. They're setting MKZ model records for it and it's won some customer satisfaction awards with, let's all admit, a near historically botched launch.

Considering the MKZ had a bumpy start this year (453 in January and 945 in February), it's on track to have its best sales year since 2007. If the MKZ averages a conservative 2800 for the next 3 months, it will sell about 32,175 which would be behind 2006's 33,114 and 2007's record 34,363. They would need to sell about 3,600 per month for the next three months to set a new annual sales record this year. Had January and February not had the launch delays MKZ would be looking at record year.

 

I think all this talk of Lincoln having one foot in the grave is premature and will end when the MKC is on sale.

[EBFlex]

Lincoln, by contrast, we're talking about 1 new MKZ generation, kinda, since as was pointed out above, the team they hired to really do the renaissance wasn't even fully in place for the MKZ.

 

.

That is an amazingly weak argument and really shows how far people will reach to defend this imitation luxury brand.

 

Taking the whole one is a Fusion based sedan and one is an Escape based SUV out of the equation, what is going to be so different with the MKC that we cannot judge the performance of the Lincoln Horseless Carriage company on the performance of the MKZ?

 

The fact is, Lincoln has been in its "rebirth" since the introduction of the MKS or even the MKX. The MKX as the first new Lincoln vehicle in years but the MKS debuted the Pontiac-ish styling that hey are still using today for some reason.

 

Lincoln may not be dead yet, but they're sitting in the hospital and the doctors are not doing a thing.

Edited October 6, 2013 by EBFlex

[akirby]

That is an amazingly weak argument and really shows how far people will reach to defend this imitation luxury brand.

 

Taking the whole one is a Fusion based sedan and one is an Escape based SUV out of the equation, what is going to be so different with the MKC that we cannot judge the performance of the Lincoln Horseless Carriage company on the performance of the MKZ?

 

The fact is, Lincoln has been in its "rebirth" since the introduction of the MKS or even the MKX. The MKX as the first new Lincoln vehicle in years but the MKS debuted the Pontiac-ish styling that hey are still using today for some reason.

 

Lincoln may not be dead yet, but they're sitting in the hospital and the doctors are not doing a thing.

 

We've already explained why the Lincoln "rebirth" did not start with the MKS or MKX or MKZ. Stop being such an idiot.

Edited October 6, 2013 by akirby

[Iiari]

We've already explained why the Lincoln "rebirth" did not start with the MKS or MKX or MKZ. Stop being such an idiot.

Agreed, the rebirth arguably hasn't started in full even yet. Let's stop feeding the trolls...

[chevys]

So when does the rebirth start?

[akirby]

So when does the rebirth start?

 

Next year with the MKC, revised MKX, Navi and MKS. Plus red, green, and black label and hopefully upgraded dealer stuff.

[Iiari]

Next year with the MKC, revised MKX, Navi and MKS. Plus red, green, and black label and hopefully upgraded dealer stuff.

 

I'd say it's starts pretty much with the first vehicle we hear was completely designed by the new team (the MKZ wasn't). It's not a great analogy, but I see the MKZ as the Catera of Lincoln right now. A vehicle that announces the new direction but isn't necessarily fully of the new direction (as those folks weren't on board yet). We don't know yet if that's the MKC, but I'm willing to bet the first ground up Wolff and Team model will probably be the next MKS, that'll be their "first gen CTS" of the Lincoln renaissance. By then they should be really looking to make a statement, not just change direction.

[NickF1011]

I think all of these people looking for a bold "statement" from Lincoln will always be disappointed.

 

Ford wants to position Lincoln as an above-Ford brand that brings in additional profits and customers. If it does that, it does its job for Ford. It's about that simple. I don't think Ford cares if the brand delivers headlines for the automotive press or is the darling at auto shows, nor should it in my opinion.

 

The MKZ is a solid entry-level luxury entry and is making headway for the brand by bringing in new customers and delivering profits above what the Fusion alone can achieve. The MKC should continue that. Don't expect a revolution, folks.

[EBFlex]

So when does the rebirth start?

 

Which one? I think we're on the 3rd or 4th now.

Edited October 7, 2013 by EBFlex

[2b2]

So when does the rebirth start?

imho the "current" rebirth started in 2010

when they put Mercury on hiatus and started head-hunting (for someone like) Max Wolff.

altho-imho

FLincMoCo hadn't intended near as much for Lincoln back then as it has come to post-Max

 

 

thenBut,

as for vehicles:

I'd say it's starts pretty much with the first vehicle we hear was completely designed by the new team...

...We don't know yet if that's the MKC, but I'm willing to bet the first ground up Wolff and Team model will probably be the next MKS...

 

AGREE :thumbup:

...in my case, specifically meaning the all-new (1st half of 2016cy afaik) CD4+3 MKS

...or whatever it's called! re-

 

 

ps

Iiari, think your Catera/MKZ analogy is pretty good

(minus that Catera had no domestic volume version)

& perhaps a bit optimistic in some ways

[Iiari]

I think all of these people looking for a bold "statement" from Lincoln will always be disappointed.

Well, the way I put it, I'm looking just for the "statement." That means a strong Lincoln styling theme, a handle on better differentiation from Ford, elements that give sitting in Lincolns a consistent sense of occasion across the range. How "bold" it is will be in the eye of the beholder, but they've made clear they are aiming for an understated elegance from Lincoln in the future, so I think it'll be pretty toned down.

 

Ford wants to position Lincoln as an above-Ford brand that brings in additional profits and customers. If it does that, it does its job for Ford. It's about that simple. I don't think Ford cares if the brand delivers headlines for the automotive press or is the darling at auto shows, nor should it in my opinion.

I would agree with this. To paraphrase of my dearly missed Saab's classic ad slogans, Lincoln is going to look to "find its own road," something closer to the space Lexus is vacating of "relaxed luxury." Again, a good example is Acura, which (save for the random upcoming NSX) just serves as an "above Honda." For all the venom slung at it by reviewers and auto nuts lately, I think they've had record sales, so the buyers don't care what the buff mags think. If Ford's in the same position with Lincoln, they won't care either as long as any kind of sub-60 year old demographic are happy customers.

 

The MKZ is a solid entry-level luxury entry and is making headway for the brand by bringing in new customers and delivering profits above what the Fusion alone can achieve. The MKC should continue that. Don't expect a revolution, folks.

Totally agree. While I think it's a stretch to call the MKZ a sales home run, the fact they are racking up record sales for the MKZ model is extremely healthy and uplifting considering:

• Their brand awareness is not the best...
• Their not yet modern dealership base is kind of a scattered, unfocused mess...
• Their buying demographic is in transition
• The model is a huge paradigm change from where they've been before
• And arguably ALL the MKZ's already established competitors were replaced or refreshed in the same year (ES, Avalon, Regal, Genesis, etc)...

Again, all encouraging. It's just as easy to imagine a scenario where everyone ignores Lincoln, traditional buyers walk away from the MKZ, and the new younger interested buyers like me (I'm 39 and about to buy) don't give Lincoln the time of day.

 

Happily for LIncoln, that all isn't happening and as a result of that overall trend I think the upcoming MKC will likely be a very, very solid success....

[NickF1011]

That means a strong Lincoln styling theme, a handle on better differentiation from Ford,

 

The MKZ already shares no sheet metal and almost zero interior appointments from its Fusion sibling. It also offers a unique powertrain and a handful of Lincoln-only options. It only appears they are taking this differentiation even further with the MKC and other upcoming vehicles. People who are still complaining about Lincoln being tarted up Fords just aren't paying attention to the new models at all or aren't paying attention to the fact that other automakers are playing a similar game.

[xgman]

 

People who are still complaining about Lincoln being tarted up Fords just aren't paying attention to the new models at all or aren't paying attention to the fact that other automakers are playing a similar game.

I think these are the same people, the 5%, that think Congress and the President are doing a good job handling the shutdown.

[Bored of Pisteon]

 

Who cares whether they keep them washed or not - THEY SELL LIKE HOTCAKES.

 

Did you go look up RX and SRX sales like I asked?

Why would I waste my time to look up sales for vehicle(s) that I have no interest in whatsoever?

[akirby]

Why would I waste my time to look up sales for vehicle(s) that I have no interest in whatsoever?

Then stop making statements about crossovers being insignificant compared to flagship sedans. The RX and SRX outsell flagship sedans by a huge margin.

[ZanatWork]

After discussing this very article/topic on a few auto sites lately, one interesting tidbit keeps coming to light:

Ford/Lincoln and the careful guarding of information.

I've been on this site a long time, long enough to remember the original articles about what would be the Coyote engine program, the idiot calling himself "The Lemon", and a lot of articles that leaked serious Ford information years ahead of time.

Nowadays...Ford keeps their secrets more closely guarded, and I speculate that it may actually hurt the brands occasionally.

"Seeing comes before wanting" is a powerful truth in mankind, and I know I'm not the only one that loves seeing prototype pics and getting snippets of news about the mechanical updates on coming models. That said...Ford is keeping any news leaks very carefully controlled in recent years, and that means less snippets of information to get excited about.

The upcoming Mustang is a great example. Most of the renders have been poor, or obvious mash-ups, and while I'm among those in suspense for the car, Lincoln doesn't have that audience or overall cachet...so it's not like there's been a slew of MKS renders (beyond one C/D photoshop) or people begging for next-gen Navigator information.

I actually believe Lincoln could be better at controlled "leaks", something to keep some bits of information keeping the brand name swirling in automotive conversations. The upcoming engines/powertrains are only referenced in vague rumors and we don't have any "future Lincoln" visuals beyond the almost-here MKC.

Lincoln suffers from perception issues, I think we can all agree. I believe that the efforts of the styling team(s) and the engineers could be carefully "previewed" better than they have been, something to get some prospective buyers salivating like next-gen Mustang fans are.

[jpd80]

Lincoln suffers from perception issues, I think we can all agree. I believe that the efforts of the styling team(s) and the engineers could be carefully "previewed" better than they have been, something to get some prospective buyers salivating like next-gen Mustang fans are.

Probably find that lincoln is doing that, leaks about MKZ came in front of its reveal and then launch,

much the same happened with MKC Concept and then the production prototypes...

 

I believe the Lincoln rebirth was announced 12-18 months too early as a stop gap measure to leep interest in the brand,

The MKZ is not a complete example of the new design freedom that Lincoln intends to pursue but still shows significant

change over a Titanium Fusion. Buyers will see and feel more difference between the MKC and Escape, it has to.