China Escort U.S. Bound?

[Biker16]

I would not necessarily say it is a bad idea, but the question is why? Why would a customer buy an Escort over a Focus? If it is for the room, they can move to the Fusion. If it is for price, are you not canabalizing sales of the Focus? In other words, it appears that Ford is chasing the same customers. To expand the C-Segment, I would much rather see Ford offer a Focus coupe, a Focus Wagon, or put a couple of sliding doors on the C-Max and put a gasoline only motor in it and offer it as a true segment-busting "Mini" minivan.

 

I agree

[Biker16]

If fuel prices unexpectedly spike dramatically, it could. Nice to know Ford has contingencies for changes in the market. Doesn't necessarily mean they will act on all of them.

 

the Question Is how can ford benefit from shift to small cars?

 

The pattern over the last 5 years is to offer higher Value cars like the Escape, not lower value cars like the escort.

 

The deeper Question is how badly will Ford be hurt, If Fuel prices spike and people move away from the Full sized truck segment.

[NickF1011]

 

the Question Is how can ford benefit from shift to small cars?

 

The pattern over the last 5 years is to offer higher Value cars like the Escape, not lower value cars like the escort.

 

The deeper Question is how badly will Ford be hurt, If Fuel prices spike and people move away from the Full sized truck segment.

 

If people are going to be shifting strongly to smaller cars, you're going to need to appease people looking for cheaper small cars as well or they are going to look elsewhere. Yes, people moving to small cars currently are making a conscious decision to get a more efficient vehicle without wanting to sacrifice creature comforts. Those are often buyers who could afford a larger car but choose not to. If the market starts to force more people into smaller cars because they are more efficient and/or cheaper, you're going to end up with a larger portion of buyers who are shopping purely on value.

 

The fullsize truck question is another matter. Let's see how the new F-150's fuel economy stacks up against the smaller pickups showing up from the competition. If it's not that great a difference, then the others offering a smaller truck really aren't putting themselves in any better a position for a market shift.

Edited April 25, 2014 by NickF1011

[jasonj80]

 

 

The deeper Question is how badly will Ford be hurt, If Fuel prices spike and people move away from the Full sized truck segment.

Not as bad as RAM and GM, They sell more driveway pickups. (though with the RAM fire-sale of late they have been getting into fleet) GM still outsells Ford in the light duty market. That is one the reasons that GM has lost so much share, the driveway pickup market is shrinking, and has been as gas prices rise, with Ford having so much in Construction and Fleet trucks, gas isn't a factor as much as those workers and companies NEED those trucks.

[Biker16]

If people are going to be shifting strongly to smaller cars, you're going to need to appease people looking for cheaper small cars as well or they are going to look elsewhere. Yes, people moving to small cars currently are making a conscious decision to get a more efficient vehicle without wanting to sacrifice creature comforts. Those are often buyers who could afford a larger car but choose not to. If the market starts to force more people into smaller cars because they are more efficient and/or cheaper, you're going to end up with a larger portion of buyers who are shopping purely on value.

 

I understand what you are saying, I don't think the move to small car has been a move to cheaper cars, there is a big difference between the two. Cities are growing and those buyer may not want the bulkiness of larger cars, but do want the room of larger cars. thus producct like the Kia soul, have been really popular. Small footprint, big room.

 

Simply offering a C car at the price of the B car, isn't the solution to that. in this instance you cannibalize both your premium compact car and your traditional B-car.

 

my solution would be market the "max"es as an alternative to traditional footprint Vehicle. B-max, C-car interior in a B-car footprint, C-max as a C/D car interior in a C-car footprint. You can't mainstream these product if they are hybrid only.

 

The fullsize truck question is another matter. Let's see how the new F-150's fuel economy stacks up against the smaller pickups showing up from the competition. If it's not that great a difference, then the others offering a smaller truck really aren't putting themselves in any better a position for a market shift.

 

We will see. GM can offer a Downsized version of the 2.5l I-4 in the Canyon, to increase economy. I cannot see for offering the Ecoboost 2.3 or smaller in the F150 and it having the same increase in efficiency that a Downsized engine would have in the Canyon.

 

In a way ford lacks the flexibility to respond to this if it happens. Remember what the last spike did to full sized pickups, right now gas is much higher than it was per 2008. the combination of emotional response and changes in culture may negate the improvements in Truck Fuel Economy. buyer will simply stop buying and do what they have done before and downsize.

 

8 year history of gas prices

 

Not as bad as RAM and GM, They sell more driveway pickups. (though with the RAM fire-sale of late they have been getting into fleet) GM still outsells Ford in the light duty market. That is one the reasons that GM has lost so much share, the driveway pickup market is shrinking, and has been as gas prices rise, with Ford having so much in Construction and Fleet trucks, gas isn't a factor as much as those workers and companies NEED those trucks.

 

The reaction from GM and Ram will be to cut their prices low enough to encourage buyer to buy, that will push down the price of ford trucks too.

[NickF1011]

 

I understand what you are saying, I don't think the move to small car has been a move to cheaper cars, there is a big difference between the two.

 

That is the trend currently. Having the Escort around gives them the ability to adapt if the market decides to go cheaper as well, which is certainly a possibility.

 

And well, Ford DOES have the Ranger around globally to bring here if the market does suddenly make some huge shift to smaller trucks. It doesn't look like they want to do it, but given a dramatic enough change, they could. And well, there's still other options to make F-150 more efficient like adding a diesel. There's also the speculated hybrid powertrain for it that is supposed to be arriving prior to 2020.

[Biker16]

 

That is the trend currently. Having the Escort around gives them the ability to adapt if the market decides to go cheaper as well, which is certainly a possibility.

 

And well, Ford DOES have the Ranger around globally to bring here if the market does suddenly make some huge shift to smaller trucks. It doesn't look like they want to do it, but given a dramatic enough change, they could. And well, there's still other options to make F-150 more efficient like adding a diesel. There's also the speculated hybrid powertrain for it that is supposed to be arriving prior to 2020.

 

two comments:

 

The challenge isn't simply improving fuel economy, the challenge is how to improve fuel economy at the lowest cost. by using diesel and to a greater extent hybrid technolgies, you are adding alot of cost to the vehicle to Achcie fuel economy gains that would far less costly in a smaller vehicle.

 

Looking at the example of other ford products EcoSport for example, it is not a quick process with ford to get products to market, even though the product s already on sale in other countries it may take up to five years to bring the product to the US.

[jpd80]

Smaller cars are getting bigger, look at new Corolla's longer wheelbase and added rear legroom,

but for a smaller trunk, it would almost qualify as a small mid sized car.

 

So, the question for Ford is does it Follow Corolla and give Focus more more room and make it more attractive to US buyers.

This could be achieved by a two pronged attack, 1) lengthen the sedan and leave the hatch as it is now or 2) lengthen both of them.

 

 

I wonder how this would play for Europe where Fiesta could be enlarged a tad to make more room for a Ka below........

Finding the sweet spot of what vehicle sizes customers want in regions should be the next big quest.

 

 

 

On the question of Trucks for the US market, Ford is jealously guarding the very profitable F150 segment and anything

it can do to broaden fuel economy across the range is vital to the way CAFE is calculated -EPA uses a harmonic mean

as a way of preventing truck makers from skewing results with a handful of super high mileage trucks. That's why all F150s

have to become more fuel efficient.

Edited April 28, 2014 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

two comments:

 

The challenge isn't simply improving fuel economy, the challenge is how to improve fuel economy at the lowest cost. by using diesel and to a greater extent hybrid technolgies, you are adding alot of cost to the vehicle to Achcie fuel economy gains that would far less costly in a smaller vehicle.

With sales of the F-150 being what they are and the market having such a large requirement for such a vehicle, those investments and cost increases will more than likely be accepted by the market without much question. This isn't a Mustang or M5 we're talking about. It's a vehicle a lot of people are still going to need regardless of what fuel prices do and Ford will adapt the vehicle to meet those demands.

 

Looking at the example of other ford products EcoSport for example, it is not a quick process with ford to get products to market, even though the product s already on sale in other countries it may take up to five years to bring the product to the US.

If the vehicle was designed to meet US specs from the get-go (I don't believe EcoSport was) then it could be brought here with relative ease. Apparently those specs were accommodated in the Escort's design. They likely also will be in other possible "market filler" vehicles in the future. One Ford, yanno.

[ehaase]

So, the question for Ford is does it Follow Corolla and give Focus more more room and make it more attractive to US buyers.

This could be achieved by a two pronged attack, 1) lengthen the sedan and leave the hatch as it is now or 2) lengthen both of them.

 

 

I would replace the Focus and Fiesta sedans in the U.S. with the Escort and keep the Focus and Fiesta hatchbacks as is and basically the same worldwide. The Focus sedan is just not competitive with interior roominess and cargo space, although it is at the top of its class in acceleration, handling, and ride. I rented a Focus sedan 2 weeks ago while traveling in South Florida, and it does ride and handle like a more expensive car.

[silvrsvt]

 

I would replace the Focus and Fiesta sedans in the U.S. with the Escort and keep the Focus and Fiesta hatchbacks as is and basically the same worldwide. The Focus sedan is just not competitive with interior roominess and cargo space, although it is at the top of its class in acceleration, handling, and ride. I rented a Focus sedan 2 weeks ago while traveling in South Florida, and it does ride and handle like a more expensive car.

 

how is adding a third car going to be profitable? Plus it seems like the interior on the '15 Focus has shrunk down the center console a bit to make it a bit more roomy up front.

 

The one thing I don't get is how many of you really carry around 4 adults in a car at a time? I have a full sized car and having interior space for 2 adults in the back was just a nice to have vs need I had in a car. You can fit most children in the back of a car without major issues and keeping an adult back there on a short trip shouldn't be a big problem in a Focus either.

[ANTAUS]

I too find it amusing, from the "The backseat is tight" crew. I would say 80% of the time no one is in the backseat. Second of all, TAKE CONTROL of your vehicle! If someone doesnt fit, just like i tell them "You take YOUR car". Then I have friends with the "My kids aren't comfortable in the backseat"...usually its about "Hm YOU had your children, your children didnt have you, so tell them to get over it, and suck it up"... and to that I usually add, "hm oh yeah cause by your height I really think your kids will ever be taller than 5'06'? " I so enjoyed when I had a mustang and Mark8, I always used the "On no one fits in the backseat because I have to put all the seat back", but let me tell you when people are in school and DONT have a ride, how easily they conform. Take back control of your vehicles people !!!

[StevenCaylor]

I too find it amusing, from the "The backseat is tight" crew. I would say 80% of the time no one is in the backseat. Second of all, TAKE CONTROL of your vehicle! If someone doesnt fit, just like i tell them "You take YOUR car". Then I have friends with the "My kids aren't comfortable in the backseat"...usually its about "Hm YOU had your children, your children didnt have you, so tell them to get over it, and suck it up"... and to that I usually add, "hm oh yeah cause by your height I really think your kids will ever be taller than 5'06'? " I so enjoyed when I had a mustang and Mark8, I always used the "On no one fits in the backseat because I have to put all the seat back", but let me tell you when people are in school and DONT have a ride, how easily they conform. Take back control of your vehicles people !!!

That's why I wish Ford would bring back the Mustang coupe. For decades, it was the only Pony car that had a decent back seat (IIRC, last year was 1993). My first Mustang, a 65 coupe, was originally my Mom's car, thus, the family car. My 83 Escort GT and 87 Turbo Coupe also had decent back seat room. My current 2000 Mustang does not.

 

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL430/521213/24140446/403363696.jpg

[Biker16]

With sales of the F-150 being what they are and the market having such a large requirement for such a vehicle, those investments and cost increases will more than likely be accepted by the market without much question. This isn't a Mustang or M5 we're talking about. It's a vehicle a lot of people are still going to need regardless of what fuel prices do and Ford will adapt the vehicle to meet those demands.

 

No market will always be anything.it is dangerous to believe that the full sized truck market will not shrink when it has shrunk tremendously form its peak in the late 90s/early 00. it also fell off a cliff during the fuel spikes 5-6 years ago.

 

If the vehicle was designed to meet US specs from the get-go (I don't believe EcoSport was) then it could be brought here with relative ease. Apparently those specs were accommodated in the Escort's design. They likely also will be in other possible "market filler" vehicles in the future. One Ford, yanno.

you don't know if the escort is designed for the US market anymore than you if the EcoSport was designed for the US market. the problem with One ford is the ability for Region to opt out of product. think about the number of products One ford has vs the number of products Ford sells in all 5 major markets.

[Biker16]

I would replace the Focus and Fiesta sedans in the U.S. with the Escort and keep the Focus and Fiesta hatchbacks as is and basically the same worldwide. The Focus sedan is just not competitive with interior roominess and cargo space, although it is at the top of its class in acceleration, handling, and ride. I rented a Focus sedan 2 weeks ago while traveling in South Florida, and it does ride and handle like a more expensive car.

why not increase the interior space in the Focus Sedan?

[NickF1011]

No market will always be anything.it is dangerous to believe that the full sized truck market will not shrink when it has shrunk tremendously form its peak in the late 90s/early 00. it also fell off a cliff during the fuel spikes 5-6 years ago.

Retail market will fluctuate, but the commercial market will always have a need for large pickup trucks of some sort. Should Ford blindly go along and assume the market will remain the same size it is now? Of course not. But just because one market shrinks doesn't mean another will automatically grow to take its place. People never thought SUVs and CUVs would be the vehicles to replace station wagons. Just as we can't assume compact pickups will be the vehicles to replace those pushed out of the fullsize market. Just as likely a result? Recreational pickup buyers will migrate to CUVs or back to traditional cars.

 

you don't know if the escort is designed for the US market anymore than you if the EcoSport was designed for the US market. the problem with One ford is the ability for Region to opt out of product. think about the number of products One ford has vs the number of products Ford sells in all 5 major markets.

Of course I don't know. But if any of them were designed with US specifications in mind, 5 years is a huge stretch as a limit as to the earliest they'd be able to get them here.

Edited April 29, 2014 by NickF1011

[RichardJensen]

 

 

the problem with One ford is the ability for Region to opt out of product. think about the number of products One ford has vs the number of products Ford sells in all 5 major markets.

 

That's a pretty strange opinion for someone opposed to selling the Escort in the US.

[NickF1011]

That's a pretty strange opinion for someone opposed to selling the Escort in the US.

Should Europe also be forced to sell the Expedition?

[RichardJensen]

Should Europe also be forced to sell the Expedition?

 

And when are we going to get the Figo?

 

Man, that's incremental volume that Ford is just leaving on the table!!!

Edited April 29, 2014 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

No market will always be anything.it is dangerous to believe that the full sized truck market will not shrink when it has shrunk tremendously form its peak in the late 90s/early 00. it also fell off a cliff during the fuel spikes 5-6 years ago.

We are now in an up economy and truck sales are booming - the opportunity is there, all Ford has to do is take it.

Buyers are now much more comfortable with higher fuel prices, they mightn't like it but it doesn't seem to be badly impairing sales.

[Biker16]

Should Europe also be forced to sell the Expedition?

 

If it is a Global product designed to be sold in multiple market segments, I.E. the EcoSport will be sold in 3 of the 4 4 of 5 business segments. it would be prudent to make that prodact capable of being sold in that 5 segment as well.

 

Ford business segments are:

 

Asia Pacific

North America

South America

Europe

Middle East & Africa (added Q1 2014)

 

The Expedition, like the Escort was designed for one market only and would not be considered a Global vehicle.

that would also Reduce Ford's Global Vehicles sold in every segment to:

Fusion

Fiesta

Focus

Transit

The Next Edge

The Next Mustang

 

That's it. these are the only products sold in all 5 ford Automotive business segments.

 

Pre 2010 there were 0 vehicle sold in every Ford Automotive business segment today we have 4 by 2015 that increases to 7.

 

If you exclude FNA

 

you would add:

Ranger

Eco-sport

Ka

 

My point is there is a reasonable case for leaving open the door for those 3 product to be sold in North America, why wouldn't the steps be taken to leave head room to meet the basic Requirements for all 5 segments eve those that may not see the need when the product launches.

 

And when are we going to get the Figo?

 

Man, that's incremental volume that Ford is just leaving on the table!!!

Hmm.

 

Why would we want the Figo when we could have the KA?

Edited April 30, 2014 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

 

Why would we want the Figo when we could have the KA?

 

Because we should have everything. At least according to you. Sometimes.

[bzcat]

 

Hmm.

 

Why would we want the Figo when we could have the KA?

 

Because they are going to be the same thing? You know you don't have to take Richard's bait and argue yourself into a corner every time...

 

 

[jasonj80]

 

If it is a Global product designed to be sold in multiple market segments, I.E. the EcoSport will be sold in 3 of the 4 4 of 5 business segments. it would be prudent to make that prodact capable of being sold in that 5 segment as well.

 

Ford business segments are:

 

Asia Pacific

North America

South America

Europe

Middle East & Africa (added Q1 2014)

 

The Expedition, like the Escort was designed for one market only and would not be considered a Global vehicle.

that would also Reduce Ford's Global Vehicles sold in every segment to:

Fusion

Fiesta

Focus

Transit

The Next Edge

The Next Mustang

 

That's it. these are the only products sold in all 5 ford Automotive business segments.

 

Pre 2010 there were 0 vehicle sold in every Ford Automotive business segment today we have 4 by 2015 that increases to 7.

 

If you exclude FNA

 

you would add:

Ranger

Eco-sport

Ka

 

My point is there is a reasonable case for leaving open the door for those 3 product to be sold in North America, why wouldn't the steps be taken to leave head room to meet the basic Requirements for all 5 segments eve those that may not see the need when the product launches.

 

Hmm.

 

Why would we want the Figo when we could have the KA?

You forgot the Escape/Kuga in your every market.

 

[Biker16]

You forgot the Escape/Kuga in your every market.

 

I don't think they sell the Escape in South America.