papilgee4evaeva Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) Let's think about this... assuming that a Lincolnized Explorer replaces the MKT, the brand will have twice as many CUV/SUVs (Navigator, "Aviator," MKX, MKC) as cars (MKS, MKZ). How times have changed. I would hope that they would balance the portfolio somehow. Edited June 22, 2014 by papilgee4evaeva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemiman Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) Let's think about this... assuming that a Lincolnized Explorer replaces the MKT, the brand will have twice as many CUV/SUVs (Navigator, "Aviator," MKX, MKC) as cars (MKS, MKZ). How times have changed. I would hope that they would balance the portfolio somehow. Quite sad in my opinion. But as folks keep stating, CUV's are what people are buying. My biggest problem is that none of the cars offered by Lincoln are something I would buy. Edited June 22, 2014 by Hemiman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) Quite sad in my opinion. But as folks keep stating, CUV's are what people are buying. My biggest problem is that none of the cars offered by Lincoln are something I would buy. And they really have two models in place to compete in the midsize and flagship segments, but Lincoln must think that positioning themselves against Audi instead of the Lexus ES is punching above their weight class. Which it might be for right now, but there's always the future. My only hope is that they find a way to re-energize their sedan offerings while taking the lessons learned from rebuilding Ford and bringing maybe an entry variant (call it MKV). They don't need to call it a CLA rival since, well, one could argue that MB is copying them to an extent. A Mark IX coupe would be cool too if they can swing it. And yeah, I probably wouldn't buy a Lincoln sedan for myself, but if my wife liked one, absolutely. I could see myself in a Navigator if I could swing it and I still needed the space. Edited June 22, 2014 by papilgee4evaeva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 And they really have two models in place to compete in the midsize and flagship segments, but Lincoln must think that positioning themselves against Audi instead of the Lexus ES is punching above their weight class. I don't think that's it at all. I think it's just a matter of first looking at the market and platform options and going after the vehicles that have the best ROI - which would be things that can be built on current platforms and can sell at higher volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I don't think that's it at all. I think it's just a matter of first looking at the market and platform options and going after the vehicles that have the best ROI - which would be things that can be built on current platforms and can sell at higher volumes. This is why I said that they have models in place. MKZ compares favorably with the big boys on paper (5/E/A6), yet advertising has only gone against the ES350 until recently (a CTS take-that ad). MKS, presumably, would match the bigger boys in size as it does now (A8/7/XJ/LS460)... well, I can't speak for their advertising as I've not seen any in forever. For the moment -- for the moment -- I have no problem with Lincoln using available platforms. That's not my issue. My issue lies with their marketing and how they seem to position their cars lower than they might need to in the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 ES is the market leader and I would say ES buyers are much more likely to switch to a Lincoln than an Audi buyer. German buyers tend to be more brand loyal. So I think that's just getting the best bang for the advertising buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 ES is the market leader and I would say ES buyers are much more likely to switch to a Lincoln than an Audi buyer. German buyers tend to be more brand loyal. So I think that's just getting the best bang for the advertising buck. Meh. ES buyers are Camry buyers that got raises. :reading: Plus, I would venture that the ES is a different market than the GS, 5, etc. A well-positioned (c'mon, Red Label!) MKZ could go after both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I was just referring to the advertising. I would like to see a hi-po AWD mkz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I've seen a couple CLA's about and I like them...but 50k+ for an AMG variant is a bit rich for my tastes given the size they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 but 50k+ for an AMG variant is a bit rich for my tastes given the size they are. The kind of people who buy M-B's don't have the expensive = must be big mind-set. If it does what they want, size is irrelevant. And thus we have M-B 2-dr coupes and BMW coupes and Audi coupes, all of them a bit rich for the size they are, if big is important to you. It's taken Cadillac and Lincoln decades to understand this, but their market has been the golf-slacks/white belt luxo-barge buyer, now becoming extinct. That's the way things were, 60 years ago, gas was cheap, roads were uncrowded, you could get where you wanted to go, and there'd probably be a parking space for you when you got there. Today, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I still go back to what Ford said about the '13 MKZ not reflecting all of the changes for Lincoln and whether more could be done at the MCe to enhance its looks further. Lincoln is seeing some impressive hybrid sales and I'm wondering if there's an opportunity to increase those sales even more as a way of changing buyer perception of MKZ and Lincoln. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) Changing buyer perception can seem glacially slow. But soon, the Lincoln showroom floor will have an MKZ, MKC and a new MKX, with an MKS soon after. The point is, the effect of all of 'em together is that the over-all brand is re-newing itself very nicely, IMHO, especially when you remember the orphans of years past. As they say, it's still early days, but now, Lincoln's got game. Edited June 22, 2014 by Edstock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The kind of people who buy M-B's don't have the expensive = must be big mind-set. If it does what they want, size is irrelevant. And thus we have M-B 2-dr coupes and BMW coupes and Audi coupes, all of them a bit rich for the size they are, if big is important to you. No my point is the car is overpriced by about 5-10K...seriously a car the size of a Focus is worth that kind of money? I rather move up to a mid-sizer for that price. A luxury coupe that price normally offers performance that is commiserated with its pricing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrewfanGRB Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Let's think about this... assuming that a Lincolnized Explorer replaces the MKT, the brand will have twice as many CUV/SUVs (Navigator, "Aviator," MKX, MKC) as cars (MKS, MKZ). How times have changed. I would hope that they would balance the portfolio somehow. They will balance the portfolio if the market demands a balanced portfolio. I still continue to struggle with this concept of "hoping" for X or Y. Why? To what end? There is only ONE purpose to do ANYTHING. And it is NOT and NEVER will be "because a few guys on the internet think it would be nice, or cool." You know what that one purpose is. I couldn't care less what Ford's or Lincoln's product mix is. I am one person. If they don't make something I want to buy, I'll just buy it from someone that does. That doesn't make Ford a horrible company or deaf to the market or anything else. I AM ONE PERSON and I am immaterial. But if I like the MKC and that's really what I want anyway, it's absolutely irrelevant what Lincoln's portfolio holds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 No my point is the car is overpriced by about 5-10K...seriously a car the size of a Focus is worth that kind of money? That may indeed be over-priced. But as to Focus-size and cost, value perception is individual. Seriously, it all depends on your expectations. If you expect to do 175 mph in luxury for two, a Shelby Super Snake isn't much bigger than a Focus, and they're around $75K or so, I believe. You want that with a Mercedes star or a BMW roundel, I guess that's $100K more or less, depending on how fast you want to go and how much froo-froo you have to have. Or a 911 Turbo S cabriolet, because you like really quick convertibles for almost $200K? Then again, what's a fully-optioned Focus ST? $35K? To some, it's a bargain, to others, it's preposterous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) i would advocate for a $31K Focus based compact because I think that would give Lincoln dealers something to sell and that volume combined with MKC, MKZ and the new MKX is where the luxury market is heading. What better way to stimulate the Focus plant than with a value adding product well above Titanium Focus. I can see lots of value in an MKF especially with 2.0 EB & auto, if only to keep ATS honest.... Do with Lincoln and Focus what Cadillac should have done with Cruze/Verano. Edited June 23, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Then again, what's a fully-optioned Focus ST? $35K? To some, it's a bargain, to others, it's preposterous. A fully loaded ST is around 30-31K :p The only way I can see that Ford/Lincoln could make this work is to make a Sedan version of the ST as the Lincoln...but I've heard complaints about the ST being overpowered for everyday use too (lack of auto too)...so what do you use as an alternative engine for the Lincoln for every day use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 They will balance the portfolio if the market demands a balanced portfolio. I still continue to struggle with this concept of "hoping" for X or Y. Why? To what end? There is only ONE purpose to do ANYTHING. And it is NOT and NEVER will be "because a few guys on the internet think it would be nice, or cool." You know what that one purpose is. I couldn't care less what Ford's or Lincoln's product mix is. I am one person. If they don't make something I want to buy, I'll just buy it from someone that does. That doesn't make Ford a horrible company or deaf to the market or anything else. I AM ONE PERSON and I am immaterial. But if I like the MKC and that's really what I want anyway, it's absolutely irrelevant what Lincoln's portfolio holds. It's how the human mind works. We all have hopes for this or that to happen, and yet we know the sun will still shine tomorrow if it doesn't. Just ask Cubs fans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 ...so what do you use as an alternative engine for the Lincoln for every day use? Revoknuckle? AWD? Detuned, automatic, sedan version of the RS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) Take the MKC platform/drivetrain and give it a sedan/coupe/hatchback top hat. It's already got enough power (and AWD) and doo-dads to justify the upsell over the Focus Titanium and might also be a tad larger which is good. Not saying they have to do it but it would need to start at a minimum of $32K with all the normal Lincoln goodies. Edited June 23, 2014 by akirby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grbeck Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) i would advocate for a $31K Focus based compact because I think that would give Lincoln dealers something to sell and that volume combined with MKC, MKZ and the new MKX is where the luxury market is heading. How many stand-alone Lincoln dealers are left? Around here they are all paired with Ford franchises, so even with a limited Lincoln line-up, they still have plenty of vehicles to sell. Edited June 23, 2014 by grbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 If Lincoln is trying to go more "upscale" with the next Navigator, ala Range Rover like suggested, I think for should stay out of the CLA territory. It'll just "cheapen" the Lincoln brand again. And that's what they've been trying to not do. I'd rather they took the same approach as they did with the F150. Open up another trim level above the titanium. Maybe have the ST, ST2, RS lines in addition to the Titanium, SEL. Taking the Focus name and adding to it will do more for Ford's bottom line than creating a new car name under the Lincoln umbrella. Not that I'm opposed to another car under the Lincoln name. I think that needs to happen, just when Lincoln is ready to roll out another vehicle. I think the money would be better spent on a Lincoln coupe ala Mustang rather than CLA Lincoln. It would give the Mustang platform something to be shared with and help with costs. The C platform doesn't need any more help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 The problem is to take it further upmarket from the Titanium Focus you'd need to start adding the stuff that is Lincoln exclusive - LRC, sound control, nicer materials, etc. It's certainly not a requirement for Lincoln to compete in that space, although I would think a vehicle like that would work well in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Take the MKC platform/drivetrain and give it a sedan/coupe/hatchback top hat. It's already got enough power (and AWD) and doo-dads to justify the upsell over the Focus Titanium and might also be a tad larger which is good. Not saying they have to do it but it would need to start at a minimum of $32K with all the normal Lincoln goodies. So, essentially a small Lincoln based on the Focus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Yes. But it wouldn't target the sub $30K CLA market - it would need to go higher than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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