Ford November Sales down 2%, Lincoln Delivers Best November Since 2007

[RichardJensen]

 

Subvene : subvention :: convene : convention.

 

Hadn't thought of that, although I've also not heard dealers around here use subvene as the root form.

[RichardJensen]

We see GM, Chrysler increasing and increasing month after month

 

In 2006, when Ford borrowed $23B and hired Alan Mulally, observers took it as an indication that Ford was in worse shape than GM and Chrysler, and had worse future prospects.

 

Instead, those actions demonstrated that Bill Ford, and Ford's management in general had a good deal more foresight than GM and Chrysler.

 

You will see similar results play out here.

[akirby]

I'd say it's more a case of catering to customers who put more emphasis on reliability and familiarity than style, performance and the latest features. There has always been a market for that type of car - think Rambler in the late 1950s and early 1960s and the Mopar A-bodies in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The problem is that such customers give a brand a "fuddy-duddy" image that becomes very hard to shake.

 

That's part of it - but the other part is simply blind loyalty to the brand and to those models in particular. Camry and Corolla fans just don't seem to be driven away from the brand even with recalls and unintended acceleration problems and sub-par performance relative to other models.

 

Not that there is anything wrong with that - some of probably do the same with Ford. I bet most Camry buyers never even bother to cross shop.

[bzcat]

The market share issue has been brought up again and I think we need to look at it in context.

 

Ford sales is falling year-over-year... true.

 

But what is happening in 2014 that is causing that?

 

1. F-150 plant shut down and inventory management - I think Ford will gladly take reduced volume on F-150 now knowing it will bury the competition in 2015 when all the plants are up and running.

 

2. E-Class switch over to Transit - Again, the volume shrinkage here is not alarming. And Ford is already back to the top of the heap.

 

3. Aging Taurus losing steam - OK, old product at the end of cycle, no big deal.

 

4. Fusion slowing down - This is a bit of concern but looks like Ford made a calculation and decided to pass on some fleet deals to keep residual value high. This is all about profit planning - since Ford still owns its own bank, it needs to make sure the car it is leasing today will not be worthless in 3 years. Unlike GM or Chrysler, which doesn't really give a flying F about residual once they sell the car to the lease holder (banks).

 

5. Focus slowing down - mid cycle update just happened... let's see if 2015 sees an up turn before breaking out the panic button.

 

As for adding niche products... I think people forgot what it was like just a few years ago... Look at all the niche models we got since "One Ford" era started: Transit Connect, Focus ST, C-MAX, Fiesta ST (I would even include the entire Fiesta line as niche given the volume). That's already a lot of "holes" that got filled. And we are on track to get Focus RS too. There isn't very many ground left to cover for Ford in my opinion.

 

Looking at what's around and making an educated guess, I think these are somewhat reasonable holes to consider:

 

1. EcoSport / B-segment CUV

2. Transit Custom / Midsize van

3. EcoSport or Transit Connect based small truck

4. Jacked up Focus hatch "cross" version / think Subaru XV or Jeep Compass competitor - slot in between EcoSport and Escape.

5. Ranger / Midsize truck - this one is feasible in low volume if chicken tax goes away, especially if focused on the "lifestyle" end of the market - i.e. no 2 door work truck

 

Notice it is heavy on utilities and trucks... because that's where the market growth is happening.

 

What I don't expect:

 

1. Everest / BOF SUV is not going to make a come back no matter what people here think

2. Escort / Cheap C-segment car

3. Ikon / Cheap B-segment car

4. S-Max / Minivan

Edited December 3, 2014 by bzcat

[Deanh]

sidebar...Transit was top selling Full size Commercial Van in November and was almost 25% of the National market....

Edited December 3, 2014 by Deanh

[630land]

Fiesta dropped quite a bit, and most likely from cheap gas prices. Focus isn't down as much, considering the 15's are still a few days from Job 1.

 

Taurus is down along with other 'large cars', they just don't have the buyers, and SUV's are now middle class status symbols. Older new car buyers get CUV's, just go to Sun City AZ and see. No need for a 'new BOF/RWD'.

 

I can see the demise of 'large car' catagory, maybe only high end luxury models. Cops can buy SUV's for patrol, or Sport coupes for 'hot pursuit', which they can also so with helicopters.

[Deanh]

I wouldn't be surprised if a revamped Taurus makes a debut in Detroit....

[silvrsvt]

I wouldn't be surprised if a revamped Taurus makes a debut in Detroit....

 

 

makes sense with the prototypes being so close to being finished.

 

As for the large car market...well I see the next Taurus as a larger high end trim model to the Fusion....then again I'm sure the cars will be 80% similar to one another. One question is will the PI move over to it right away or will it stay on the D3 till the Explorer run comes to an end?

[bzcat]

I think PI will stay on the old Taurus platform for a while. The specialized equipment manufacturers have barely recouped their investments in creating new accessories and hardware for the current PI.

[Biker16]

 

Nothing wrong with getting your money's worth, but I'd expect that every platform should get a serious update every 10-15 years depending on the product. The CD4 is similar to the EUCD, but at the same time Ford has gone through 3-4 mid-sized platforms in the same time the Camry has been the best selling car in North America.

 

Think about this. according the Toyota the Camry, Corolla, Matrix, Rav4, highlander, Venza, Sienna and Avalon are on the same platform.

 

The mantra of continuous improvement is always in effect there. no one can say that those products are uncompetitive due to their platforms. I think we confuse old platform with neglect. They are not the same, C2 and CD4 are evolutions of previous platforms its just Ford gives these "Evolved" platform new names and Toyota doesn't.

 

this is the problem with people against ford developing a RWD platform. people need to undeerstqand that a new flexible RWD architecture can span C-E vehicles and realistically be used for decades. if done properly I.E. designed to be as uncommon as they are Common. Unlike C2 where every vehicle has basically the same Floor-pan and suspension modules, plan for more variations of the architecture while keeping the high cost items common.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Think about this. according the Toyota the Camry, Corolla, Matrix, Rav4, highlander, Venza, Sienna and Avalon are on the same platform.

 

FTFY

[RichardJensen]

 

no one can say that those products are uncompetitive due to their platforms.

 

First of all, you're taking Toyota's claims at face value (which is tantamount to accepting that the Edge was built on the same platform as the Fusion).

 

Secondly, Toyota's "continuous improvement" of the Camry has seen it fall to the #8 vehicle in the segment in terms of transaction price, even as its buyers have aged.

 

The last thing Ford needs to do is "continuously improve" their CD platform the way Toyota has done the Camry.

[Biker16]

First of all, you're taking Toyota's claims at face value (which is tantamount to accepting that the Edge was built on the same platform as the Fusion).

Or believing the New F150 is really 29% more fuel efficient.

 

Secondly, Toyota's "continuous improvement" of the Camry has seen it fall to the #8 vehicle in the segment in terms of transaction price, even as its buyers have aged.

 

Is this completely due to its platform?

 

the Camry still is the best selling car in its class, and the Corolla is still selling very well.

 

Toyota is more profitable than Ford.

 

The last thing Ford needs to do is "continuously improve" their CD platform the way Toyota has done the Camry.

I think ford likes to reinvent the wheel a tad too much. Sometimes tweaking an old model is better than ripping it up and start anew. ford often has become a Victim of mission creep, and tries to do too much with each redesign.

 

There is a difference between neglecting a product and refining a product.

 

Toyota is more profitable than Ford.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

Or believing the New F150 is really 29% more fuel efficient.

 

That's an externally verifiable statement of fact. Go on FuelEconomy.gov and compare the 2014 5.0L V8 4x2 F150 to the 2015 2.7L V6 4x2 F150.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2014/11/21/f-150-fuel-economy.html

 

Is this completely due to its platform?

 

The platform is a factor. The Camry has gigantic C pillars owing to their failure to replace the platform. The retention of one and two decade old hard points is a major reason why the 'all new Camry' looks like nothing so much as the old Camry with new front and rear fascias.

 

 

Toyota is more profitable than Ford.

 

That does not mean that Toyota is making better business decisions in this market than Ford. And Toyota's margins in this market are significantly lower than Ford's.

 

You are altogether too well aware of the different economic environments in the US and Japan to expect me to take this argument seriously.

[akirby]

Toyota is maximizing profits on Camry by not updating it. Same for Corolla. It's a gravy train right now relying on loyal buyers and low prices. Meanwhile the competition is leaving them behind from an engineering standpoint.

 

Sound familiar? It's exactly what happened to Ford and GM in the 80s and 90s in reverse.

[ANTAUS]

Like Corollas 28 year old transmission, that's laughable. The Camry platform which dates back from the 90s. And they have admitted the Camry doesn't really make a profit for them...so just imagine with what little engineering investment they place on that vehicle, and they still don't make a profit.

[papilgee4evaeva]

So Camry is the new Panther, ya say?

[akirby]

So Camry is the new Panther, ya say?

 

More like the late 1990s Taurus.

[Biker16]

That's an externally verifiable statement of fact. Go on FuelEconomy.gov and compare the 2014 5.0L V8 4x2 F150 to the 2015 2.7L V6 4x2 F150.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2014/11/21/f-150-fuel-economy.html

sounds like spin to me, apple to apples the F-150 does not achieve a 29% increase in economy.

 

The platform is a factor. The Camry has gigantic C pillars owing to their failure to replace the platform. The retention of one and two decade old hard points is a major reason why the 'all new Camry' looks like nothing so much as the old Camry with new front and rear fascias.

so your answer is NO, the Transaction price decline is not related to the platform.

 

That does not mean that Toyota is making better business decisions in this market than Ford. And Toyota's margins in this market are significantly lower than Ford's.

 

You are altogether too well aware of the different economic environments in the US and Japan to expect me to take this argument seriously.

So profit is not a result of good business decisions, right?

 

I think I looked it up and Ford profit over the last 15 years is ~ 25% of Toyota's over the same period.

[silvrsvt]

I think I looked it up and Ford profit over the last 15 years is ~ 25% of Toyota's over the same period.

 

We both know that Ford had internal issues that it needed to address, that have been addressed...so what is your point again?

[Biker16]

Like Corollas 28 year old transmission, that's laughable. The Camry platform which dates back from the 90s.

2001

[akirby]

sounds like spin to me, apple to apples the F-150 does not achieve a 29% increase in economy.

 

 

I know I started that argument but it does if you compare the new for 2015 2.7L ecoboost with the 2014 5.0L. They both have similar torque (375 vs. 380) and here are the epa numbers:

 

2014 5.0L - 15/21/17

2015 2.7LEB - 19/26/22

 

22 - 17 = 5 / 17 = 0.29

[RichardJensen]

sounds like spin to me, apple to apples the F-150 does not achieve a 29% increase in economy.

 

 

so your answer is NO, the Transaction price decline is not related to the platform.

 

 

So profit is not a result of good business decisions, right?

 

I think I looked it up and Ford profit over the last 15 years is ~ 25% of Toyota's over the same period.

 

Please highlight the portions of this statement that you don't understand, Biker, and we will try to help you out:

 

"That is 5 percent to 29 percent better than current F-150 models, depending on engine and driveline configuration on the combined cycle."

------

A "new" vehicle that does not look like a new vehicle will not be attractive to customers.

------

Toyota's margins in NA are lower than Ford's. Please explain how this indicates that Toyota is making better decisions than Ford with respect to this market.

[PREMiERdrum]

2001

 

There was a lot new for the "all new" 2001 Camry, but much of the architecture remained a pull-and-stretch version of the XV10 platform, which debuted under the 1992 model in 1991.

Edited December 5, 2014 by PREMiERdrum

[Biker16]

We both know that Ford had internal issues that it needed to address, that have been addressed...so what is your point again?

My point is the assumetion that:

 

A) Toyota platforms are competitiveeven though they are old.

B) Toyota's investment strategy is infinitely more successful that ford's and there are things Ford can learn for their platform philosophy.

C) Ford's does not have the market cornered on profitability or sound decision making, and it is reasonable to be concerned about the company's performance in 2014 and beyond.

D) Toyota is merging All Front/transverse platforms in 2015 with the TGNA architecture.

E) Ford still trails Toyota, in Quality, reliability, fuel efficiency, Productivity, Market Share and profitability, and we should never forget this fact.

 

Toyota is maximizing profits on Camry by not updating it. Same for Corolla. It's a gravy train right now relying on loyal buyers and low prices. Meanwhile the competition is leaving them behind from an engineering standpoint.

 

Sound familiar? It's exactly what happened to Ford and GM in the 80s and 90s in reverse.

I disagree, the comparison to the Ford and GM is misguided. Toyota actually has a plan to improve their PD, Factories and their platforms, which are Far more adaptable and flexible than Ford platforms are today. in the 90s Ford anf GM focused on profits and that led them to abandon their cars, they never had a Serious plan to recapitalize their car platforms.

 

 

Toyota N platform

 

The Toyota N platform is an automobile platform for executive cars (E-class models) from Toyota. It is often called "Mark II platform" and "Crown platform", after its main uses, and, less frequently, "Lexus GS platform".

The platform emerged from Mark II (X platform). It debuted in October 1991 with Crown Majesta and Aristo S140, which, in contrast with contemporary S140 Crown, featured monocoque construction instead of Crown's ladder frame. In October 1992 4WD models were added to lineup.

In 2003 (with release of Crown GRS180) inline-six engines (1G-FE and 1JZ/2JZ) were discontinued in favour of V6 GR series engines.

 

 

 

Contents

• 1 Features
• 2 N
  • 2.1 Applications
• 3 New N
  • 3.1 Applications
• 4 References

Features

• The body is monocoque;
• It is a rear-wheel drive platform, with optional four-wheel drive;
• 4WD variants use Toyota's FOUR system, which is full-time with 3 differentials (center, rear and front);
• Engines are mounted longitudinally;
• Front suspension is double wishbone, while rear is multi-link;
• Disc brakes are used at all four corners.

N

 

Applications

• Mark II family:
  • Mark II sedan (−2004)
  • Mark II Blit wagon (2002–2007)
  • Verossa (2001–2004)
  • Chaser (−2001)
  • Cresta (−2001)
• Mark X sedan (2004–)
• Crown/Crown Majesta
• Crown Comfort/Comfort
• Progres
• Brevis
• Origin
• Lexus IS — XE10 (1998–2005), XE20 (1998–present)
• Lexus GS — S140 (1991–1997), S160 (1997–2005), S190 (2005–2012)
• Lexus LS/Toyota Celsior
• Lexus SC — Z40 (2001–2010)
• Lexus LF-X concept

New N

 

Applications

• Lexus GS — L10 (2012–present)^%5B1%5D

• Lexus IS — XE30 (2013–present)

 

Honestly would anyone here call the Lexus LS outdated simply because it uses the same platform it used in 1991.

 

It is obvious to Me that the definition of platform is different between Toyota and BONers.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Biker16