Ford Motor Company March 2015 sales down 3%

[papilgee4evaeva]

No, no, no. You don't understand. All you have to do is wave a magic wand.

 

Pardon my lack of belief. My magic wand's too heavy to wave.

[Deanh]

unless the wand is made of carbon fiber of course....

[akirby]

 

Horsepower? While Fusion's most powerful engine leads the pack in torque, it's dead last in HP.

 

Do you know why? Because it builds its peak torque much lower in the RPM band providing better off the line power. The tradeoff is you run out of power more quickly at higher RPM but since most people don't drive at WOT most of the time it's a much better setup.

 

Look at the other extreme - the old Honda S2000. Made 237 hp at 7800 rpm but only 162 lb/ft at 6800 rpm. No grunt off the line and no power until you revved the hell out if.

 

Remember HP is just a calculation of torque and rpm.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Do you know why? Because it builds its peak torque much lower in the RPM band providing better off the line power. The tradeoff is you run out of power more quickly at higher RPM but since most people don't drive at WOT most of the time it's a much better setup.

 

Look at the other extreme - the old Honda S2000. Made 237 hp at 7800 rpm but only 162 lb/ft at 6800 rpm. No grunt off the line and no power until you revved the hell out if.

 

Remember HP is just a calculation of torque and rpm.

 

I get all that. (And I remember the torqueless wonder S2000. lol)

 

My question was if the lower HP rating caused people to use more fuel to accelerate at the same rate. Since these days no one likes to just gradually build speed anymore. (And I drove around most of the Perimeter yesterday evening. I know what I'm talking about. )

[jpd80]

 

I get all that. (And I remember the torqueless wonder S2000. lol)

 

My question was if the lower HP rating caused people to use more fuel to accelerate at the same rate. Since these days no one likes to just gradually build speed anymore. (And I drove around most of the Perimeter yesterday evening. I know what I'm talking about. )

That is of course an issue with Ecoboost having so much low end torque, if its there people will use it.

I wonder if 2.3 Ecoboost will make an appearace after Fusion's MCE.

[akirby]

What jpd80 said. Not the lack of hp but the abundance of torque.

[bzcat]

 

S80:

 

191x73.9x58.8

 

98 cu. ft. x 14.9 cu. ft.

 

Fusion:

 

191.7x72.9x58.1

 

103 cu. ft. x 16 cu. ft.

 

Fusion footprint is less than 1sf smaller than the S80.

 

Both sets of numbers from Cars.com

 

I was just going to post the same... lol

 

Biker accidentally proved your point that you can't take weight out after chassis design is frozen. Similar size cars using shared platform should weight about the same.

[jpd80]

The Chinese are very sensitive about cars being developed for their region, even whispers of development in Melbourne

would send them into a spin so a lot of development was kept low key so as not to attract a lot of attention from the press.

 

You will probably find Taurus has two completely different styling packages for this car, one for China and one for North America.

Now, do the American require different external styling for Taurus? Can the same plant tolerate a different passenger compartment

for Lincoln Continental?

 

One Ford does not mean same same everywhere..

Edited April 13, 2015 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

Can the same plant tolerate a different passenger compartment

for Lincoln Continental?

.

Absolutely, they already do that anywhere a Lincoln is made. They even do it in Flat Rock with the Fusion and Mustang.

[jpd80]

Absolutely, they already do that anywhere a Lincoln is made. They even do it in Flat Rock with the Fusion and Mustang.

Yes, having a standardized assembly sequence/process is key to making that happen.

Edit,

other part of post moved to other thread...

Edited April 13, 2015 by jpd80

[fuzzymoomoo]

The flaw with your hypothetical is the Taurus is supposed to be moving with the continental

 

That and we all know that Flex/MKT are both pretty much dead in the water at this point

Edited April 14, 2015 by fuzzymoomoo

[jpd80]

The flaw with your hypothetical is the Taurus is supposed to be moving with the continental

 

That and we all know that Flex/MKT are both pretty much dead in the water at this point

It wouldn't be the first time things were assumed to be happening, but just imagine what the contingency would be

if Ford decided not to switch Taurus... Taurus and Continental on CD4 for Nth America is a logical conclusion

[aneekr]

 

No, no, no. You don't understand. All you have to do is wave a magic wand.

 

Or better yet, have talented engineers, designers, and managers on staff. Several recently redesigned cars and light trucks have achieved the goals of "adding lightness while improving interior space, quietness, durability, and performance" while keeping pricing in line with comparably equipped predecessor models.

[akirby]

 

Or better yet, have talented engineers, designers, and managers on staff. Several recently redesigned cars and light trucks have achieved the goals of "adding lightness while improving interior space, quietness, durability, and performance" while keeping pricing in line with comparably equipped predecessor models.

 

Please explain which techniques that other mfrs are using that you don't believe Ford understands. This is not rocket science and there is no free lunch. You have to make compromises. Ford chose other priorities.

[aneekr]

 

Please explain which techniques that other mfrs are using that you don't believe Ford understands. This is not rocket science and there is no free lunch. You have to make compromises. Ford chose other priorities.

 

Techniques for reducing BIW mass include strategic use of structural adhesives, welding & bonding design, removal of flanges, load path optimization, hot stamping for structural parts, frame and cross member geometries, and material selection (aluminum, UHSS/high tensile steels, etc.). Additional mass reduction techniques can be applied to powertrain, chassis sub-assemblies, attached body panels and parts (fenders, doors, hood, trunk), and interior components. Attention to detail is key.

 

I'm sure Ford understands these and other "light weighting" techniques; many of them were employed in the X350 Jaguar XJ (when Jaguar was part of Ford) and 13th gen F-150, for example. I don't know what priorities Ford had in mind for CD4 Fusion/Mondeo, but the end result is a needlessly heavy vehicle. Hopefully Ford will rectify this for its next generation D and E segment cars.

[akirby]

How does the extra "needless" weight affect sales? It doesn't. Nobody looks at curb weights or 0-60 times on a midsized family sedan.

[fordmantpw]

How does the extra "needless" weight affect sales? It doesn't. Nobody looks at curb weights or 0-60 times on a midsized family sedan.

 

But they do pay attention to the feel of the doors when you close them and the 'vault-like' interior of said vehicles.

[akirby]

 

But they do pay attention to the feel of the doors when you close them and the 'vault-like' interior of said vehicles.

 

Exactly. And how do you get that? Thicker glass and more sound deadening material which weighs a bit more, but it's a good tradeoff.

[aneekr]

How does the extra "needless" weight affect sales? It doesn't. Nobody looks at curb weights or 0-60 times on a midsized family sedan.

 

Due to multiple factors involved with sales trends for midsize sedans, it's difficult to establish a precise relationship between those two variables.

 

Here are the models with the highest U.S. sales volume in calendar year 2014 and their curb weights (weights reported by Car and Driver):

1. Toyota Camry: 428,606 units; 3,297 lbs.
2. Honda Accord: 388,374 units; 3,297 lbs.
3. Nissan Altima: 335,644 units; 3,136 lbs.
4. Ford Fusion: 306,860 units; 3,477 lbs.
5. Hyundai Sonata: 216,936 units; 3,300 lbs.

Thus, three of the five most popular sedans have curb weights at the 3,300 lbs. mark, one is about 160 lbs. lighter, and one is about 180 lbs. heavier.

[fordmantpw]

 

Due to multiple factors involved with sales trends for midsize sedans, it's difficult to establish a precise relationship between those two variables.

 

Here are the models with the highest U.S. sales volume in calendar year 2014 and their curb weights (weights reported by Car and Driver):

1. Toyota Camry: 428,606 units; 3,297 lbs.
2. Honda Accord: 388,374 units; 3,297 lbs.
3. Nissan Altima: 335,644 units; 3,136 lbs.
4. Ford Fusion: 306,860 units; 3,477 lbs.
5. Hyundai Sonata: 216,936 units; 3,300 lbs.

Thus, three of the five most popular sedans have curb weights at the 3,300 lbs. mark, one is about 160 lbs. lighter, and one is about 180 lbs. heavier.

 

But #3 weighs less than #1 and #2, and #5 weighs less than #4.

 

Correlation does not equal causation. And your numbers don't even show true correlation.

 

While we are at it, we should compare F-Series sales numbers and its curb weight with this group. That would make just about as much sense, no?

[akirby]

 

Due to multiple factors involved with sales trends for midsize sedans, it's difficult to establish a precise relationship between those two variables.

 

Here are the models with the highest U.S. sales volume in calendar year 2014 and their curb weights (weights reported by Car and Driver):

1. Toyota Camry: 428,606 units; 3,297 lbs.
2. Honda Accord: 388,374 units; 3,297 lbs.
3. Nissan Altima: 335,644 units; 3,136 lbs.
4. Ford Fusion: 306,860 units; 3,477 lbs.
5. Hyundai Sonata: 216,936 units; 3,300 lbs.

Thus, three of the five most popular sedans have curb weights at the 3,300 lbs. mark, one is about 160 lbs. lighter, and one is about 180 lbs. heavier.

 

The previous Fusion was a couple hundred pounds lighter. Its best year was 248K in 2011. The porky 2013+ have sold an average of 300K the last 2 years (295K and 305K). Therefore your assertion that weight impacts sales is thoroughly disproved.

[Anthony]

Wow. This thread took a weird detour.

[aneekr]

 

Correlation does not equal causation. And your numbers don't even show true correlation.

 

 

That's the point.

[RichardJensen]

 

1. Toyota Camry: 428,606 units; 3,297 lbs.
2. Honda Accord: 388,374 units; 3,297 lbs.
3. Nissan Altima: 335,644 units; 3,136 lbs.
4. Ford Fusion: 306,860 units; 3,477 lbs.
5. Hyundai Sonata: 216,936 units; 3,300 lbs.

 

Aneekr, I know for a fact you took stats in college. You can't get a degree in engineering without taking stats. Heck, you can't *understand* engineering without understanding certain fundamentals of statistics.

 

Assuming, first of all, that the curb weights you're reporting are even remotely reflective of the most popular configurations---much less a sales-weighted average, the correlation between weights and sales is -.27. That's predictive of absolutely nothing.

 

---

 

And if curb weight is not even remotely connected to sales success, please explain to me why it should be a higher priority for Ford than other more important factors?

Edited April 14, 2015 by RichardJensen

[fordmantpw]

 

That's the point.

 

So, you are saying the point you were trying to make with your numbers is that your point is false?