Biker16 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Except that they're generally less profitable overall and per unit than Ford (excluding the most recent quarter), they're extending credit to people they shouldn't, their "strategy" for Cadillac is impossible to fathom, and their European operations have been a drag on the company's resources for almost two decades. GM sales more cars than Ford and they have less profit per uint becuase of that. ford car lineup for the next 18-36 months is toast. GM also had the Foresight to bring over not one but two B-CUV and a smaller pickup while Ford's response is 3-4 years away. Oh, and they also have no commercial van range to speak of, they still have too much capacity and too many dealers, and they're wasting cash reserves on stock buybacks ahead of a looming downturn in the market. so GM is going bankrupt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 GM sales more cars than Ford ...in 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Your arguments are all either demonstrably false (6), irrelevant (1,2,3,4,5,7,8,9,13,14), or not even addressable (10,11) But congratulations for continuing to not think about what you type and not read why you're replying to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Your arguments are all either demonstrably false (6), irrelevant (1,2,3,4,5,7,8,9,13,14), or not even addressable (10,11) But congratulations for continuing to not think about what you type and not read why you're replying to. More profitable than ford More volume than ford. more products than ford Consistent product refresh rate Cruze sales up. 52% Focus Sales down 26% Midsize pickup sales 4-5 years ahead of Ford. All-New Spark sales up 6% ALL-new Cruze Out sold the Refreshed Fusion. ALL-new Cruze Out sold the Focus almost 2 to 1. Is any of this false? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Is any of this false? Read my post and use your brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 (edited) GM sales more cars than Ford and they have less profit per uint becuase of that. ford car lineup for the next 18-36 months is toast. GM also had the Foresight to bring over not one but two B-CUV and a smaller pickup while Ford's response is 3-4 years away. Buyers are pulling back on car sales across the board and heading to trucks and Utilities. Throwing money at those vehicles now to pump prime sales may or may not be a good idea. Trax and Encore are still relatively small in sales, insufficient to justify production here, the reason it offers them is to feel out if there is a change away from compact cars to B-SUVs, it's a two way bet. GM had to go with Colorado/Canyon because it had no ready replacement for its 150 Express Vans, the move has worked out well for them but let's not in the same breath disparage Ford because it chose to bring Transit to North America as a replacement for the lighter E-Series vans, GM is now forced to outsource this replacement because it has nothing to call on in the rest of the world - that's mind boggling! And finally, GM has taken the best part of six years to slip into "high gear" profit mode and drive past Ford but, that pace GM has built up could be its undoing if indeed we are heading into a slow down........ GM carries a lot more internal costs attached to making its multi channel branding work and that could all play against it when a contraction comes along. Edited September 6, 2016 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Lets also not forget that Ford did a major product refresh from 2011 to 2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 The Ranger and Bronco will not launch into today's market but into a very different market 3 years from. and IMO will not be as successful as many here hope it will be. CAFE, higher Fuel prices, Carbon Tax, all-new wrangler, and wrangler pickup, refreshed GM midsize pickup. yeah just like the unibody Explorer did huh? Ford might be late to enter a market, but normally (esp when it comes to CUV/Trucks) they normally take it over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 That's pretty open ended thinking considering that we don't know what exact form Bronco will take and how it would be priced. Gauging Ranger response is much easier considering the relative success and high sales of Crew Cab Colorado/Canyon. We do know that Ford is probably doing both but the Ranger will take the lion's share of sales (~12K per month) However it is priced, it will cost more than a Ranger. SUV's in this current market command $5,000+ more than the Pickup / Car version of the same vehicle. Ranger will probably start around 22K, with the Bronco costing at least 26k to start. The Bronco will most likely parallel the Edge pricing at that time. Also the Bronco will be a world car, it will be exported and RHD is being planned. If there is a market that Ford consistently hits it out of the park, it is SUVs, the Ranger might end up outselling the Bronco because of (still profitable) Fleet Business, but for ATPs and Driveway vehicles the Bronco will far outsell the Ranger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 However it is priced, it will cost more than a Ranger. SUV's in this current market command $5,000+ more than the Pickup / Car version of the same vehicle. Ranger will probably start around 22K, with the Bronco costing at least 26k to start. The Bronco will most likely parallel the Edge pricing at that time. Also the Bronco will be a world car, it will be exported and RHD is being planned. If there is a market that Ford consistently hits it out of the park, it is SUVs, the Ranger might end up outselling the Bronco because of (still profitable) Fleet Business, but for ATPs and Driveway vehicles the Bronco will far outsell the Ranger. That's a pretty big bomb there. Care to share where you heard that nugget? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 I assume it would replace Territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justins Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 I assume it would replace Territory. Edge has been confirmed for that role, beginning early 2018. What will be interesting is if we end up getting the 7 seat from China. Official word is no, but who knows... Oz get Thai built Everest as Ranger based 4wd wagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 Edge has been confirmed for that role, beginning early 2018. What will be interesting is if we end up getting the 7 seat from China. Official word is no, but who knows... Oz get Thai built Everest as Ranger based 4wd wagon. Then maybe the Bronco slides in as the next gen Everest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 I don't think the Bronco has to replace any vehicle in Australia anymore than it does not need to replace any vehicle in the US 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 I don't think the Bronco has to replace any vehicle in Australia anymore than it does not need to replace any vehicle in the US I don't think so here, but my (limited) understanding of the Australian market is there's not really a whole lot of room for lineup expansion. At this point for North America is whether or not the market is big enough for further lineup expansion beyond what's out now or due to be out by Q4 2017. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justins Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 I don't think so here, but my (limited) understanding of the Australian market is there's not really a whole lot of room for lineup expansion. At this point for North America is whether or not the market is big enough for further lineup expansion beyond what's out now or due to be out by Q4 2017. We're a VERY fragmented market - more manufacturers / models sold here than in the US from memory (I could be wrong), but entire market is ~1.1million vehicles a year. Everest is struggling to take off, but that is mainly due to poor pricing / specifications more than anything IMO. If Bronco is different enough, there MAY be a business case for it, but I doubt it as things stand now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 I don't think so here, but my (limited) understanding of the Australian market is there's not really a whole lot of room for lineup expansion. At this point for North America is whether or not the market is big enough for further lineup expansion beyond what's out now or due to be out by Q4 2017. Outside of the Ranger, Bronco and a B-class SUV...what does Ford really need that can't be addressed by current or updated platforms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Outside of the Ranger, Bronco and a B-class SUV...what does Ford really need that can't be addressed by current or updated platforms? and all 3 of those can be addressed with current or updated versions of current platforms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 7, 2016 Author Share Posted September 7, 2016 Outside of the Ranger, Bronco and a B-class SUV...what does Ford really need that can't be addressed by current or updated platforms? CD6 everything? Haha...but seriously...I honestly don't see much else aside from updates which we know are coming (Focus/Fiesta, for example). A Taurus revamp? Ford is in all the critical segments, aside from the ones you mentioned.... it's just that some of the products are getting old (Focus and Fiesta). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 yeah just like the unibody Explorer did huh? Ford might be late to enter a market, but normally (esp when it comes to CUV/Trucks) they normally take it over The current Explorer IS a Refreshed Taurus-X, and the Explorer is a CUV not a body on frame SUV. CUV sales are growing while the number of BOF SUVs contiues to decline or Remian flat. AFAIK The bronco would be the first all new mainstream BOF SUV in the US since the 2007 FJ Crusier. The Everest Weighs 5225lbs, is Ford Going to make the Bronco and the Ranger aluminum? Think about it, does it make since to launch a 2010 explorer in 2019? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) The current Explorer IS a Refreshed Taurus-X, and the Explorer is a CUV not a body on frame SUV. CUV sales are growing while the number of BOF SUVs contiues to decline or Remian flat. AFAIK The bronco would be the first all new mainstream BOF SUV in the US since the 2007 FJ Crusier. God you love moving the fucking goalposts whenever it fucking suit you huh? If its a refreshed Taurus X...show me where it actually shares ANY parts with it! Outside of the powertrain You'd be better off saying the Flex is a replacement for the Taurus X.... Going back to the Bronco...primary market is the Wrangler...not other CUVs or SUVs. Sales of the Wrangler have nearly DOUBLED since 2007...obviously there is a market for a product like that. If its sharing its platform with the Ranger in some form...WHY not do it? Aren't you the cheerleader around here saying Ford isn't pursing other markets? Sigh.... Edited September 8, 2016 by silvrsvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Explorer is a refreshed Taurus X but the last 3 Camry models were "all new"? Give me a freaking break. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 (edited) Ford cancelled an "all new" compact car for India and China, and other emerging markets. Why? CUV sales. Edited September 8, 2016 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 Ford cancelled an "all new" compact car for India and China, and other emerging markets. Why? CUV sales. I think there is still a market for cars, but not like the past. Some have to face reality and not whine endlessly demanding products that don't sell as "good old days". There is but at the same time a car and CUV are nearly the same thing...so for example, you wouldn't be focusing on a hatchback look, you'd focus more on CUV styling for that small car. Doesn't take much for say a B-class hatchback car to look like a CUV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 (edited) Yes, the days when cars were the priority development. on platform design is becoming less as utilities command higher prices an profit margins. A change in buyer preference, fuelled by manufacturers has in turn caused a rethink on priorities with replacement vehicles and timing. We often see complaints about what Ford is not doing, but less consideration of what those different objectives achieve in overall profitability. Europe, China and India are all coming on board with growing Utility sales, that has to be an important consideration for Ford going forward and perhaps that allowsNth America to share in even more Utes... Edited September 9, 2016 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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