Biker16 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 http://click.crainemail.com/?qs=ea7a6d1c1b3edf59552f196ecee9380787c469a0889557f980d3980aa761df9d7264720b07157ab4 The Chevrolet Bolt has been certified by the EPA to go 238 miles on a single charge, making it the first electric vehicle to be sold in the U.S. with a range of more than 200 miles and a starting price of less than $40,000. GM says 238 miles will meet the average consumer's daily driving needs with plenty of range to spare Innovation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Since when is adding a larger battery pack innovation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonj80 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 GM has basically forced Tesla into making the Model 3 at least 250 miles per charge the base model, the 75kW should be the minimum in the Model S this year if not all you'll hear from Bolt marketing is that it goes farther than a Tesla on a charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 Since when is adding a larger battery pack innovation? Since when is adding a larger battery pack innovation? I guess an all aluminium truck was as simple a replacing steel with aluminum, right? If it were easy everyone would have done it already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 If it were easy everyone would have done it already. If there was a compelling business case to do it then everyone would have done it already. All you need is a purpose built platform for battery storage - all the other stuff is off the shelf. It's much harder technically to build a true hybrid with an integrated ICE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 If there was a compelling business case to do it then everyone would have done it already. All you need is a purpose built platform for battery storage - all the other stuff is off the shelf. It's much harder technically to build a true hybrid with an integrated ICE. This reminds me of When Steve Ballmer laughed at the first iPhone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Steve Ballmer is also a boob of the highest magnitude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Other than having a bespoke platform to hold the 60 kwH battery pack to get the 238 mile range, what about the Bolt is "innovative"? What does it do better than a Focus Electric or Leaf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Other than having a bespoke platform to hold the 60 kwH battery pack to get the 238 mile range, what about the Bolt is "innovative"? What does it do better than a Focus Electric or Leaf? It does have a lot more range than the Focus Electric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 It does have a lot more range than the Focus Electric Other than having a bespoke platform to hold the 60 kwH battery pack to get the 238 mile range... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 You mean all you need to do is add battery capacity to increase range? No need to improve other chassis systems to improve that range? Wow, making car is so simple! Why is it so hard for Ford? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 You mean all you need to do is add battery capacity to increase range? No need to improve other chassis systems to improve that range? Wow, making car is so simple! Why is it so hard for Ford? How do you make a gas vehicle go further? You add a bigger gas tank. Same applies here. More range = more kw/h of energy. Focus and Leaf have 30 kwh batteries and get 107 miles. Bolt is 60 kwh and goes 238. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 You mean all you need to do is add battery capacity to increase range? No need to improve other chassis systems to improve that range? Wow, making car is so simple! Why is it so hard for Ford? You're not that obtuse. Ford doesn't have a platform built to house that much battery. That's the problem. It's easy to increase the battery a bit if you have a vehicle designed from the start to be electric only and to have the batteries as part of the structure of the vehicle as opposed to just flopping the batteries in the trunk wherever you can find room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 You have to give props to GM for the volt and bolt. The issue as it's been said here before. It's easy to make a car that loses money. It's hard to make a car on a unique platform and unique drivetrain make money. I totally believe every major manufacturer could develop electric cars that meet or exceed this. The problem is money. Think of the money GM has burned starting with the EV-1 all the way to the volt and ELR and now bolt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 You have to give props to GM for the volt and bolt. The issue as it's been said here before. It's easy to make a car that loses money. It's hard to make a car on a unique platform and unique drivetrain make money. I totally believe every major manufacturer could develop electric cars that meet or exceed this. The problem is money. Think of the money GM has burned starting with the EV-1 all the way to the volt and ELR and now bolt. Exactly!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted September 14, 2016 Author Share Posted September 14, 2016 (edited) Other than having a bespoke platform to hold the 60 kwH battery pack to get the 238 mile range, what about the Bolt is "innovative"? What does it do better than a Focus Electric or Leaf? It is not on a separate platform, it uses the same platform as the Encore CUV. and built in the same plant and line as the Sonic. It does have a lot more range than the Focus Electric ALOT more range. You mean all you need to do is add battery capacity to increase range? No need to improve other chassis systems to improve that range? Wow, making car is so simple! Why is it so hard for Ford? Obviously Ford could a much better job if they weren't as dumb as everyone else. From left to right Gen 1 Volt: 16KWh Gen 1 Volt Ver-3 17.1KWh Spark EV 18.2KWH Bolt EV 60 KWh every genrartion becomes more compact and more powerful. Energy Density That focus on efficiency allows the battery to contain about three times the Spark's energy with only twice the mass. Battery is a lithium-ion unit with high nickel content, which allows for a higher heat tolerance. It runs warmer than the Spark's battery, yet its overall waste heat is low. Like Tesla's new 100KWH battery pack, they found a way to increase the energy density of the battery. "battery is only heavier by 4%, but energy capacity increased by 11%." How do you make a gas vehicle go further? You add a bigger gas tank. Same applies here. More range = more kw/h of energy. Focus and Leaf have 30 kwh batteries and get 107 miles. Bolt is 60 kwh and goes 238. it is as simple a adding bigger battery? The battery is actually a significant structural component of the Bolt. If the battery were to be removed, the car's torsional rigidity would drop by 28 percent. Cross-members are built into the battery's tub to better transfer forces across it -- in stress tests, only the rear shelf of the battery experiences significant flexing. Also they gave it a higher capacity battery and still had room for a real trunk. the focus EV has two batteries one in the Trunk and one where the Fuel Tank would go. the layout is very inefficient. and heavy. You're not that obtuse. Ford doesn't have a platform built to house that much battery. That's the problem. It's easy to increase the battery a bit if you have a vehicle designed from the start to be electric only and to have the batteries as part of the structure of the vehicle as opposed to just flopping the batteries in the trunk wherever you can find room. again the battery isn't twice the size, according to the its energy density it could be less than 50% larger and hold 100% more energy. The bolt doesn't use a dedicated platform Edited September 14, 2016 by Biker16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 So you think they just added batteries to a Chevy Sonic? You just said the battery is part of the structure. So it can't be the same. They started with a sonic chassis and heavily modified it for the Bolt. 60 kwh is twice the energy of 30 kwh regardless of the size or weight of the batteries. GM is buying the newer batteries from LG. They're not proprietary to GM. Ford spent no money on the electric focus. Therefore the platform wasn't modified - the 3rd party builder just added batteries. I expect Ford's EV to match or exceed Bolt's specs because it will be the first one that Ford has actually built. You can't seem to grasp that what GM and Tesla are doing may be technically impressive but Tesla is absolutely not making money and it's likely that GM isn't either. Ford is putting profits over PR and gee whiz but I don't expect you to understand that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGR Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Given that VW, BMW, Mercedes, Renault-Nissan, Jaguar, among others, are headed in the EV direction, it's past "PR" at this point. Ford had better get on board and quickly. With that, I'm done with this thread...I've had my fill of discussing this with ostriches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 (edited) For the most part Ford knows where to put it's money when it needs to do so. But you certainly can't have the expertise until you spend the money...so ultimately I reject the notion that Ford knows how to crack this without actually having done it or proven they can do it. So until that happens, I don't think it's reasonable to assume this is a simple matter of spending money. I do think there is value in Ford's recent approaches to new segments which is to wait and see and then dissect the products and customers to find out how to do it better (or if they should do it at all). From a business standpoint I think Ford is wise, it takes calculated risks when it's essential and minimizes others when they are not. Edited September 14, 2016 by BORG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 (edited) You're not that obtuse. Ford doesn't have a platform built to house that much battery. That's the problem. It's easy to increase the battery a bit if you have a vehicle designed from the start to be electric only and to have the batteries as part of the structure of the vehicle as opposed to just flopping the batteries in the trunk wherever you can find room. So why can't they just...you know...cut a hole in the floor of a Focus or Fiesta and call it done? I mean it's SO simple to develop a platform that can accommodate large batteries and other gas powered vehicles. Edited September 14, 2016 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 So why can't they just...you know...cut a hole in the floor of a Focus or Fiesta and call it done? I mean it's SO simple to develop a platform that can accommodate large batteries and other gas powered vehicles. Wouldn't it be better to just strap the batteries to the top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Is this a better solution than the Tesla 3? Does Bolt fill an existing urgent need for a vehicle like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 It is not on a separate platform, it uses the same platform as the Encore CUV. GM developed a new architecture for EVs that puts the battery in a thin sandwich under the floor. That increased passenger and cargo space. It also lowered the Bolts center of gravity more than an inch compared to conventional cars, contributing to more responsive handling than the cars tall profile suggests. http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2016/09/13/chevrolet-bolt-electric-cars-mainstream-tesla-nissan-leaf-toyota-prius/90108614/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 (edited) I believe that it's an upgraded version of Gamma II called Gamma G2SC that is shared with NG sonic and Opel Corsa but not the current Spark I think that also makes Bolt different to Trax and Encore, there's no provision for battery under the floor with them but maybe the design can be adjusted to add that in later? without dismissing Bolt, I'll be interested to see just how many sales GM scores with it and whether it affects any of Tesla 3's presale bookings, will there be wholesale defections to Bolt? Edited September 14, 2016 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 The only question is whether Ford is going to be behind the curve on technology by waiting 2 more years to debut their true extended range EV. One advantage of waiting is that they can learn from Volt and Bolt and the others and take advantage of newer battery technology. If Ford's true EV can't exceed or at least match the competition when it debuts then they will deserve the criticism. But to say Ford CAN'T do something that they haven't even ATTEMPTED to do yet is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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