probowler Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Can you imagine 10 years ago telling people that by 2020, Cars would be on the verge of extinction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Discounting overlaps for products that were being phased out, over the past FIFTY YEARS, gaps in coverage in red. SUBCOMPACT Fiesta > (10 year lag, give or take) > Festiva > Aspire (10 year lag, give or take) > Fiesta COMPACT Pinto > Escort > Focus COMPACT/MIDSIZE Falcon > Maverick > Fairmont > Tempo > Contour (six year lag) > Fusion MIDSIZE/FULL SIZE Fairlane > Torino > Elite > Granada > LTD > Taurus > Five Hundred/Taurus FULL SIZE Full Size (LTD/Galaxie/XL) > Crown Victoria (discontinued) LINCOLN Continental > Town Car > MKS > Continental Versailles > Continental > LS > Zephyr/MKZ Any number of coupes have been discontinued (Mark series, Thunderbirds, two door variants of midsize & full size sedans) So, the 'chaotic' Ford sedan lineup has consisted of, well, a huge gap in the subcompact segment, and a six year lag in which the Taurus was the only car between the "C" and "E" segments. Technically, the Contour was "replaced" by the Focus. The front interior room was identical. A true Midsized car didn't reappear till the Fusion came out. The Escort was considered a subcompact in the 1980s (replaced the Fiesta in 1982) and the Tempo was the compact car that the Focus is now. It doesn't help that we moved to the European class standards more or less in the past 10-15 years either...but then again B-sized cars are the same size or taller then most subcompacts/compacts of the 1980/90s. Then again what Ford did back then is kind of similar to what is happening today...SUV/CUV's are hot, but at least they aren't ignoring their sedan offerings now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomcat68 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 On a side note one reason a car market shrink is that nobody invest in said market as seen with small trucks. Look what Continental is doing after MKS flopped, Lacrosse and Impala sales are picking up after the model switch over and the fleet model was cancelled. Luxury is a bit immune to that, but the current Impala was also an amazing car when it came out, but sales of it and all its non luxury bracket competition are trending down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Individual vehicle sales will fluctuate a lot, but the overall market should not decline simply as a result of neglect unless it's a segment that simply isn't profitable and all mfrs decide to exit for that reason. E.g. if all it took to reclaim the small truck market was updated styling and features then at least one mfr would have done that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Technically, the Contour was "replaced" by the Focus. The front interior room was identical. A true Midsized car didn't reappear till the Fusion came out. The Contour was legitimately intended to replace the Tempo, and the Focus was legitimately intended to replace the Escort. That the Focus had almost the same interior room as the Contour was an indication of how badly Ford botched the Contour. Ford Europe, which led on the Contour, either didn't know or chose to ignore indications that the 'Tempo class' (Accord, Camry, Stanza) was going to increase in size dramatically in the early 90s. Comparison tests from the mid 90s show the Contour in that class. The fact that Ford NA got lured into the 90s Detroit 'longer/lower/wider'/cab forward trend didn't help--the Taurus was too big & the Contour was too small to compete well with the new midsize segment. In fairness, Ford Europe got the Focus very, very right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 One should also remember that '70s vehicles were almost universally replaced by smaller vehicles in the early 80s. The Escort was not a replacement for the Fiesta, as the Escort and Fiesta were sold side-by-side in Europe. Going strictly by line by line size comparisons, e.g. Pinto/Maverick/Torino/LTD+Galaxie (1970) > Focus/Contour/Taurus/Crown Vic (2000) > Fiesta/Focus/Fusion/Taurus/Crown Vic (2010) > Fiesta/Focus/Fusion/Taurus (2016), you can see continuity more easily than by comparing sizes from one generation to the next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 Don't forget the Ford Festiva and Aspire were sold next to the Escort as the truly "small" vehicle in the US during that time as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Don't forget the Ford Festiva and Aspire were sold next to the Escort as the truly "small" vehicle in the US during that time as well. Exactly--the overall sedan hierarchy hasn't changed much from the mid 70s to present, but the sizes of the cars have and generational size shifts have created some awkward overlaps before. The fox body Granada/Fairmont situation was almost as goofy as the Contour/Focus situation. The two cars had identical wheelbases, with the Fairmont being only 3" shorter and an inch narrower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 The fact that Ford NA got lured into the 90s Detroit 'longer/lower/wider'/cab forward trend didn't help--the Taurus was too big & the Contour was too small to compete well with the new midsize segment. The Taurus has always been "too big"...IIRC it was supposed to replace the Crown Vic in the 1980s. It was still be influenced by the downsizing trends that started in the mid to late 1970s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) IIRC it was supposed to replace the Crown Vic in the 1980s. Nope, it was a direct replacement for the LTD-Granada fox body cars. That was the plan from the get-go; Ford was pretty far behind the trend of moving midsize cars to a FWD layout (Chrysler's K-Cars and GM's A-bodies had been out for a few years by the time the Taurus came out). '86 Taurus was 106/188 vs. 105.5/196.5 for the LTD Edited January 16, 2017 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 And even if there was some justification for continuing car development at FCA, I think Sergio put that under a bus by committing so heavily to Fiat's euro brands that North America has no choice but to remain a battery hen and pump out profits via Ram and Jeep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Nope, it was a direct replacement for the LTD-Granada fox body cars. That was the plan from the get-go; Ford was pretty far behind the trend of moving midsize cars to a FWD layout (Chrysler's K-Cars and GM's A-bodies had been out for a few years by the time the Taurus came out). '86 Taurus was 106/188 vs. 105.5/196.5 for the LTD Publications of the time don't seem to agree with you https://books.google.com/books?id=ZOQDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=ford+taurus+replace+crown+vic+1986&source=bl&ots=5-tNDAY-Il&sig=UCvg4ePgHd2hgGn0Iu8uF0Ioot0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOkonntMfRAhUFMyYKHftvAnQ4ChDoAQgZMAA#v=onepage&q=ford%20taurus%20replace%20crown%20vic%201986&f=false The LTD was based on the Fox and was a interim replacement for the Maverick Discussion on its size By now, its apparent the individuals behind making the Taurus a reality rather than a pipe dream were asking the right questions. But the crux of where the Taurus would impact the market wasn’t entirely clear until they arrived at a definitive consensus on its sizing. Taking stock of the current crop of sedans, the team saw an opening: baby boomers starting families that were familiar with Japanese cars and wanted that experience in a larger vehicle. Ford already had something like that in its stable, but the LTD was quite large: 196.5 inches in length. That’s almost five inches longer than a current generation Ford Fusion. The Taurus needed to slim down, but stay larger than the competition. The A-Body Celebrity debuted in 1981, providing the team with a solid template for sizing the Taurus properly. Although their overall length and height were nearly identical, the Taurus bested the Celebrity with a longer wheelbase (106 inches vs. 104.8) and width (70.8 vs. 69.2). For a family car, those extra measurements go a long way towards a superior ride and a more roomy interior. The third generation Honda Accord. It’s easy to see why Ford felt there was an opening they could exploit; The second and third generation Accord were over a foot shorter in length, making them more competitive with the Tempo, at least in size. If the Taurus had a spirit animal, it was the Audi 5000 (known abroad as the 100). The German sedan nearly matched the Taurus in wheelbase (105.6) and was only slightly wider (at 71.4) and taller (71.4). http://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automotive-history-1986-ford-taurus-good-role-models-and-clear-objectives-create-a-breakthrough-car/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Hmm we go from Demon to Taurus LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooter Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 (edited) Me want...but there goes my power wagon budget....i wont give 2 cents for a fca outside the heeps, challenger and truck line...there stuff is cheap as hell...no doubt ford europe is what has saved fords small car line like the fiesta and foci...fords past track record aint all that great either...when oil rebounds lotsa people goin be in a world of hurt..ford desereves some accolades for i think they have learned there lesson...we shall see Edited January 16, 2017 by snooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 There still has to be a way for us to have our cake and eat it too with Mustang and a good RWD sedan, the time is not right at the moment but you can see that Ford achieves much with standardized construction, a new kind of flexibility that allows a Mustang and a Lincoln or a Fusion (Mondeo) to go down similar lines. Hopefully FCA employes similar scales of economy with future cars.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) Publications of the time don't seem to agree with you https://books.google.com/books?id=ZOQDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=ford+taurus+replace+crown+vic+1986&source=bl&ots=5-tNDAY-Il&sig=UCvg4ePgHd2hgGn0Iu8uF0Ioot0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOkonntMfRAhUFMyYKHftvAnQ4ChDoAQgZMAA#v=onepage&q=ford%20taurus%20replace%20crown%20vic%201986&f=false The LTD was based on the Fox and was a interim replacement for the Maverick That article has a clear error in it. The LTD & Marquis were phased out shortly after the Taurus was launched, not the LTD Crown Victoria & Grand Marquis. Also, the LTD wasn't the Maverick's replacement, not in time or space. This is what happened: 1969: Maverick launched 1970 Falcon discountinued 1975 Granada launched (slightly larger than the Maverick, more 'luxurious') 1977 Maverick discontinued 1978 Fairmont launched (on the Fox body) 1981 Granada moves to Fox body (slightly larger than the Fairmont, more luxurious) 1983 Granada renamed LTD 1984 Fairmont discontinued / Tempo launched 1986 Taurus launched / LTD discontinued The Fairmont was smaller than the Granada (slightly), and was discontinued immediately before the Tempo was launched. The Granada/LTD was discontinued immediately after the Taurus was launched. That's basically how Ford navigated the shift to smaller & FWD cars from the late 70s to mid 80s. Edited January 17, 2017 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) Essentially this is what happened: Both the Granada & Maverick were 'compacts' (in fact, the EPA classified the Maverick as a subcompact), but the Granada was a larger, more expensive and more luxurious compact built on the same platform as the Maverick. The Fairmont and fox body Granada/LTD had the same relationship as the Maverick/Granada; the Fox Granada/LTD was a little larger and a little more luxurious. Tempo / Taurus passenger space: 90 cu ft/100 cu ft Fairmont / LTD passenger space: 96 cu ft/97 cu ft Maverick / Granada 87cu ft/93 cu ft Edited January 17, 2017 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Which reminds me. My wife and I saw a Tempo yesterday at the grocery store and were amazed there's still one running. Even more amazed that it was in such spectacular shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Which reminds me. My wife and I saw a Tempo yesterday at the grocery store and were amazed there's still one running. Even more amazed that it was in such spectacular shape. There's a bright red Topaz around here that I see from time to time... looks like it just drove off the lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Which reminds me. My wife and I saw a Tempo yesterday at the grocery store and were amazed there's still one running. Even more amazed that it was in such spectacular shape. I'm wondering which of the gremlins of that era have afflicted this car: Like, has the keyway on the ignition switch wore down so that you no longer need a key to start your car and can, in fact, take the key out of the ignition while the car is running? How many of the power window switches have stopped working? And, a personal favorite, which one of the door locks has stopped working when you hit the central lock switch? Right rear, perhaps? For that extra long reach when you need to let someone into the back seat on that side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Funny you mentioned the ignition switch thing My dad's bronco was like that. You could start it with the key in the house Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Funny you mentioned the ignition switch thing My dad's bronco was like that. You could start it with the key in the house It was great for leaving your car running at the store. Pull out the key, lock the door and you're set. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 It was great for leaving your car running at the store. Pull out the key, lock the door and you're set. Ditto for warming it up on a winter morning. That big V8 took forever to warm up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 When gas spiked up a few years back, I was shocked at all the smaller cars from the 1980/90s on the road I saw...and how good of condition they where in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 I was able to start the ignition on my old Renault Alliance with a screwdriver. Did not need the key at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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