Want to turn ford around in the US?

[shrewd]

Make a few vehicles maybe 3 model cars... 3 model trucks that don't have 4 million recalls in the first year. That do not have massive issues and concerns with reliability... and people will come running.

 

Until ford can do that... they are going to slide on sales further and further. It is simple. You have competitors that have better Warrantees or just flat better products for similarly equiped and capable cars. To compete you have to earn your customers trust back, but it is impossible to do that without quality reliable cars... or at least a promise (warrantee) that you will back up your product through thick and thin.

 

If I were ford... I would rather lose billions a year due to a great warrantee that allows customers to feel a ford... than lose billions because no one wants your ineffective product.

 

One has people trying out your vehicles.. the other just has a spiral to death.

 

Funny that the one brand that IS doing well in the car market for ford (Mazda) with its current line up... is getting its warrantee slashed this next year BACK to an uncompetetive 3/36 from 4/48. So you shoot your winners and bet on your loosing lines.

 

They will have to do much better than that to compete in this market. I swear, I would buy a hyundai, or Kia before Ford at this point, believe it or not, their cars seem more reliable now (recently... definately not before) since their quality has gone WAY up.

 

Back up your product.

[waymondospiff]

Back up your product.

 

Perhaps you haven't heard about this:

 

http://www.fordvehicles.com/features/news/...dex.asp?id=1540

 

All 2007 Ford's are coming with a 5-year, 60,000 mile powertrain warranty. The 60/60 was the best powertrain warranty of any full-line manufacturer until last week when GM announced their 60/100 warranty. But the 60/60 is longer than Toyota, Honda, Chrysler, & Nissan.

 

Scott

[J-150]

You have heard of the triplets and 500, right? One recall between them. If I remember, it was for a gas tank strap that MIGHT break after about 10 years.

 

 

IIRC that was a supplier issue, not due to Ford cost cutting.

[ANTAUS]

"Make a few vehicles maybe 3 model cars... 3 model trucks that don't have 4 million recalls in the first year. "

 

The 500/Mtgo, rated top in initial quality by JDPower, both vehicles new designed built in a newly renovated flexible manufacturing plant. The Avalon can't say that...

 

Same with the Mustang.

 

The CD3 haven't received any issues either.

 

So really this is irrelevant...

[RichardJensen]

You have heard of the triplets and 500, right? One recall between them. If I remember, it was for a gas tank strap that MIGHT break after about 10 years.

Add in the Explorer, Mountaineer, and Sport Trac, as well as the Mustang.

 

'Bout 800k vehicles.

 

One recall.

[2005GTP]

The 500 triplets are nice cars but grossly underpowered. Compare to the Avalon which outpowers it and gets better gas milage. That's Ford's problem, when they finally come out with something, it get trumped by someone else. I like the 500. Its very roomy but has no balls. Then, when Ford finnally comes out with a motor with power, they put it in the Zepher first. Thats just dumb. The Edge, MKX and the 500 triplets need that engine first.

[RichardJensen]

The 500 triplets are nice cars but grossly underpowered. Compare to the Avalon which outpowers it and gets better gas milage. That's Ford's problem, when they finally come out with something, it get trumped by someone else. I like the 500. Its very roomy but has no balls. Then, when Ford finnally comes out with a motor with power, they put it in the Zepher first. Thats just dumb. The Edge, MKX and the 500 triplets need that engine first.

The MKZ gets the 3.5 first why?

 

Because it hits the market first.

 

The Edge and MKX are both getting it immediately, and why put the engine in the D3s ahead of the update?

 

But, wait, this is about making sweeping generalizations, not about actual facts, or rational arguments.

[2005GTP]

There you go Richard,,,,,keep rooting for the last placed team. Ford sucks. Period.

 

Who gives a shit about what hits the market first. The Zeph/MKZ is doing fine without the 3.5. I highly doubt sales will increase drastically due to the better engine. The 500 triplets need more attention than a better than expected Zeph. The Zeph, in my opinion is getting way too much attention. If they can tweak the car within a year of release, than yes, its getting too much attention. Not to mention, its no where near the sales numbers of the triplets so why is Ford so determined to focus on the low volume vehicles and neglect the higher selling ones?

[RichardJensen]

So Ford focuses on the MKZ to add a new engine, to differentiate it from the Fusion/Milan, and that's too much attention.

 

But Ford's decision to install the 3.5L in the D3s next spring is not enough?

 

Man, it must be nice to have no accountability whatsoever.

[Guest Sixcav]

Ford vehicles are no less reliable than just about any other car line out there. They make reliable cars and trucks there is no question. Remember guys when I talked about the "perception problem" that Ford and GM have?

 

Make a few vehicles maybe 3 model cars... 3 model trucks that don't have 4 million recalls in the first year. That do not have massive issues and concerns with reliability

 

Shrewd is exactly the kind of customer I'm talking about. He's just one of many. It's a perception problem that is furthered by popular culture, the media (to some extent) and what have you. It's not his fault really, he's a product of the environment. Not that Ford cars and trucks are the icon of perfection, but they certainly aren't as unreliable as this poster percieves them to be. There is no quick fix for the problem unfortunately. As with Toyota and Honda, it will take time to establish themselves again.

[Misteredog]

The 500 triplets are nice cars but grossly underpowered. Compare to the Avalon which outpowers it and gets better gas milage. That's Ford's problem, when they finally come out with something, it get trumped by someone else. I like the 500. Its very roomy but has no balls. Then, when Ford finnally comes out with a motor with power, they put it in the Zepher first. Thats just dumb. The Edge, MKX and the 500 triplets need that engine first.

 

Well the Avalon has a glovebox where its trunk should be, seriously it's about the size of Focus sedsn's and there's no pass through. As to the FiveHundredbeing underpowered, I've got a Montego and I really don't feel any want for more power. It's easy enought to get it up to a 100 mph when overtaking trucks as it isand I don't need points on my licence;) 600 or so so miles on a tankful(highway) 450 to 500 around Detroit and environs is nothing to sneeze at either.

 

The biggest problem is that there is a very large group of people out there who will not even consider an American branded car, and for no good empirically justifiable reason. I know some people like that in Detroit, and on the West Coast they are an even larger group. I don't know how or even if Ford, or GM, or Chrysler for that matter can get those people to change their minds. Judging form Friday's press conference and the Ford market share projections I think that Ford management now realises that is a problem with no easy or quick solution too.

[shrewd]

Ford vehicles are no less reliable than just about any other car line out there. They make reliable cars and trucks there is no question. Remember guys when I talked about the "perception problem" that Ford and GM have?

Shrewd is exactly the kind of customer I'm talking about. He's just one of many. It's a perception problem that is furthered by popular culture, the media (to some extent) and what have you. It's not his fault really, he's a product of the environment. Not that Ford cars and trucks are the icon of perfection, but they certainly aren't as unreliable as this poster percieves them to be. There is no quick fix for the problem unfortunately. As with Toyota and Honda, it will take time to establish themselves again.

 

I think you are not seriously looking for a car then. If you read the reviews on hondas... there is like maybe MAYBE 1 in 100 reviews that had a major issue with the car.... With toyota is is very similar... however when you click over to the ford and chevy reviews the amount of major work and amount of stops to the auto shop is alot higher... and the work done ALOT more. That is the problem in a nutshell. I really have no bias against fords cars because I have not owned a single one. Only toyotas.... and they have spoiled me with nearly zero issues on cheap cars for 14 years.

 

As a Matter of fact it is quite the opposite. I would not mind buying a ford vehicle to actually do a small part to help the company out. Toyota doesn't need my cash... but Ford is hurting. Yet to get it, I need something more than just lip service and chit chat. I need a product that as I research it, comes back with very little grief listed under USER reviews. Or if I do find that they have less reliability (easy to do, as I state below).. then the car company should back up their product. The only reason Toyota and Honda doesn't need to do that is because they have not TALKED about great quality... they have PROVIDED superior quality for decades now...

 

JD Powers all most of the other initial quality guys can kiss my butt.. They always rate cars decent. That is like a stamp of excellence from the same company... they are bought and paid for... I have NEVER ever seen them rate a car as awful... and there have been ... many awful cars... So I look to actual driver reviews for information... and the vast majority of the time... People warn me about buying a ford, then back it up with their own personal horror stories... then you go online, and get MUCH MUCH more of the same.

 

Now let’s talk a moment about what I am speaking of about reliability. These cars do not have great resale values, so you really have to like the car as you watch the resale drop. Every sales man has admitted this easily to me, even as Kbb shows the same thing. If you’re going to buy a car, it in general is a MAJOR purchase... I bought a condo for 70k; it appreciated to 170k... I buy one of these cars... It depreciates dramatically and still is lacking in a warrantee.

 

Really it is put up or shut up time for Ford. The Koreans and Japanese have raised the bar dramatically if not by showing their quality of car, by putting the guarantee on the car that makes it competitive.

 

Take the Koreans: 10 YEAR 100,000 MILES power train warrantee.. 5 YEAR 60,000 MILES bumper to bumper...

 

Then Toyota or Honda offers

36 Basic (mi.) 36,000 Powertrain (mo.) 60 Powertrain (mi.) 60,000

 

Yet here we have Ford with

36 Basic (mi.) 36,000 Powertrain (mo.) 60 Powertrain (mi.) 60,000

 

But I am sorry Ford, you are no Toyota nor Honda. You have to do much more than just match to compete when your quality is suspect.

 

Imagine running a race, and it is a race you are losing... and all you do is match speed with your opponent... You are still going to lose. You have to step it up and do better then the competition.

 

And don't even think a powertrain extension does it either... with todays cars, if the there is a massive electrical system failure... the car is totaled by the Insurance company... and it has NOTHING to do with the powertrain.

 

Back up the product, and people will take a much bigger look at Ford.

Edited September 17, 2006 by shrewd

[Guest Sixcav]

Shrewd you really gotta research your topic buddy.

 

You say you don't like the JD Powers initial quality survey. I don't like it either. So I refer you to the JD Powers long term reliabilty survey. I mean long term is the real measure right? How does the car hold up over time.

So here you go.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/29/j-d-pow...dability-study/

 

You will notice that Ford as well as Honda and Toyota are all above the industry average. Let me quote the article for you.

 

Simply stated, this year's data shows that domestic manufacturers deserve to make claims of having competitive quality, as they have 7 of the 14 nameplates with above-average dependability

 

That includes Ford shrewd. I have no doubt that Toyota and Honda make good cars. I've owned two Toyotas myself and I currently own a Ford. So unlike you I've been to both side of the issue personally, not just because my good buddy Bob told me a horror story. Bad news is always the news people prefer to tell, human nature. When someone wants a reason to justify to themselves trading out of their car, the usual reason is "It turned out to be a piece of junk!" even if it wasn't.

 

By the way the current warranty on Ford products is 5 years 60,000 miles, not 36,000. Might have seen that on TV maybe? I don't know. I'm not here to toot Ford's horn for them. They do some thing's that just seem really stupid to me. But I'm also not so foolish as to think that Toyota is the end all and be all of cars. If you spend some time on this website you'll see plenty of horror stories about Toyota. Then what? You'll get rid of your Toyota and drive Subarus for 14 years?

[RichardJensen]

Buy a surplus cop-car crown vic.

 

Cheap, reliable, and it says, "I'm even MORE practical than consumer reports"

[2005GTP]

So Ford focuses on the MKZ to add a new engine, to differentiate it from the Fusion/Milan, and that's too much attention.

 

But Ford's decision to install the 3.5L in the D3s next spring is not enough?

 

Man, it must be nice to have no accountability whatsoever.

 

 

 

What needs differentiation is the Milan. Actaully, that car needs to go because it offers nothing. At least the Zeph has a different look, albeit with the same sheet metal. Plus, a different interior. The Milan offers nothing of value to the consumer.

 

I know the CUV's are getting the 3.5, but the triplets were originally supposed to debut the 3.5 except the motor was not ready in time. I just think that the so called "failure" of the triplets could have been "forgotten" about had the update been at least the debut of the 3.5. For a car that, in the eyes of public, had no style and no power, Ford could have marketed motor as significant if it would have been offered in something that would not have taken away from its prestige. Offering it the Zeph will do little in terms of high volume, get it out in the public eye exposure. Being used with the CUV's is great, but those two cars are fabulous looking and the engine itself might get overlooked as whole when buyers look at the whole vehicle.

 

I just think that debuting that motor in a car that clearly needed the power more would have helped generate more in terms of market interest than putting it in the Zeph.

[Guest Sixcav]

A quote of Bill Ford from this Way Forward version 3.

 

But rapid shifts in consumer demand that affect our product mix and continued high prices for commodities mean we must continue working quickly and decisively to fix our business.

 

Translated, "Our expensive ass SUV's and pickups aren't selling worth a damn because gas is expensive and we didn't bother to have any sedans or econo cars worth buying because we let the whole segment languish years ago so now we are playing catch up."

[matthewq4b]

A quote of Bill Ford from this Way Forward version 3.

Translated, "Our expensive ass SUV's and pickups aren't selling worth a damn because gas is expensive and we didn't bother to have any sedans or econo cars worth buying because we let the whole segment languish years ago so now we are playing catch up."

 

 

Yup that pretty much sums it up.

 

Matthew

[2005Explorer]

I just think that the so called "failure" of the triplets could have been "forgotten" about had the update been at least the debut of the 3.5. For a car that, in the eyes of public, had no style and no power, Ford could have marketed motor as significant if it would have been offered in something that would not have taken away from its prestige.

 

Triplets? Most refer to the CD3's as the triplets and they have hardly been a failure.

[grbeck]

If you spend some time on this website you'll see plenty of horror stories about Toyota. Then what? You'll get rid of your Toyota and drive Subarus for 14 years?

 

 

Horror stories about Toyotas on a website for Ford fans? I'm sure THOSE are really going to change people's minds... :rolleyes:

[ebritt]

A quote of Bill Ford from this Way Forward version 3.

 

 

 

Translated, "Our expensive ass SUV's and pickups aren't selling worth a damn because gas is expensive and we didn't bother to have any sedans or econo cars worth buying because we let the whole segment languish years ago so now we are playing catch up."

Because the proffit margin was not big enough for them. They put all their eggs in the SUV basket and got creamed when gas prices shot up. They don't learn at all and they will do it again.

[630land]

"I just think that the so called "failure" of the triplets could have been "forgotten" about had the update been at least the debut of the 3.5. "

 

IN this day of gas prices goin up/down/up? Real car buyers are not clamoring for HP, like the "Boy Racers" and Magazine Spec sheet fanatics.

 

80% of Camrys are 4 bangers, and there is no big 'cult' attached to the V6 cars. Another point, the "faster" Honda Accord V6 Hybrid is a flop, since the buyers dont care about speed and burnouts.

 

Ford planned more V6 Fusion cars, but reality is more I4's sold. Even if the 3.5 was ready, it would have sold as well as the 3.0.

 

Again, only the spec sheet racers are still thinking there is a HP race in the family sedan market.

 

More important than gettting a "Hot Rod" Fusion out is getting a Hybrid version on the market.

Edited September 18, 2006 by 630land

[shrewd]

Shrewd you really gotta research your topic buddy.

 

You say you don't like the JD Powers initial quality survey. I don't like it either. So I refer you to the JD Powers long term reliabilty survey. I mean long term is the real measure right? How does the car hold up over time.

So here you go.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/01/29/j-d-pow...dability-study/

 

You will notice that Ford as well as Honda and Toyota are all above the industry average. Let me quote the article for you.

That includes Ford shrewd. I have no doubt that Toyota and Honda make good cars. I've owned two Toyotas myself and I currently own a Ford. So unlike you I've been to both side of the issue personally, not just because my good buddy Bob told me a horror story. Bad news is always the news people prefer to tell, human nature. When someone wants a reason to justify to themselves trading out of their car, the usual reason is "It turned out to be a piece of junk!" even if it wasn't.

 

By the way the current warranty on Ford products is 5 years 60,000 miles, not 36,000. Might have seen that on TV maybe? I don't know. I'm not here to toot Ford's horn for them. They do some thing's that just seem really stupid to me. But I'm also not so foolish as to think that Toyota is the end all and be all of cars. If you spend some time on this website you'll see plenty of horror stories about Toyota. Then what? You'll get rid of your Toyota and drive Subarus for 14 years?

 

http://www.fordvehicles.com/assets/pdf/2007FocusWarranty.pdf

 

Please look on page 8 of the warranty document provided by ford. Perhaps the above was confusing... since it was 60 month or 60 thousand powertrain which is equal to 5 years or 60 thousand mile.

 

Yet their bumper to bumper warrantee is also referenced there as specifically... I quote..

 

"Refer to pages 32 - 37 for 5-Year/100,000 Mile Ford Powertrain Limited

Warranty (Florida, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa,

and Saipan Deliveries Only). Vehicle deliveries in all other states

are covered by a 5-Year/100,000 Mile Ford Powertrain Extended Service

Contract.

The measure that occurs first determines how long your coverage lasts.

For example: Your Bumper to Bumper Coverage lasts for three years -

unless you drive more than 36,000 miles before three years elapse. In

that case, your coverage ends at 36,000 miles."

 

Yet this too is confusing and misleading or contradictory to the GRAPHIC placed in that document that clearly states that the power train warrantee was 5 years 60 thousand miles.... not 100k. You will have to look at the document to understand what I am referring to. They explicitly contradict their own statement in their graphic.

 

That said, even if it is a 5 year 100k powertrain, the bumper to bumper IS 3 year/ 36k.

 

The warrantee they show on TV is the POWER TRAIN warrantee. It is the same BS that Volkswagon used to pull saying they had the best warrantee in the business with a 10 year 100k warrantee... that was powertrain only .... their bumper to bumper at the time was the WORST in the industry at 2 year/28k.

 

Even Volks wagon now has upped their Bumper to Bumper warrantee to 4 years 48k miles.. though even with that warrantee, the incredibly poor reliability of recent VW's has ruled out any purchase there, even though from test drives and driving friends cars... that is one of the best riding cars I have ever driven.

 

So please check your figures again.

Edited September 18, 2006 by shrewd

[shrewd]

Yet another questionable point. IN the actual text of the 5 year 100,000 mile warranty they explicitly only state it is valid in "Florida, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and Saipan Deliveries Only" .... hello! Is that what the large * is next to that warranty on the commercial? Or have they changed their policy and the information on their company webpage is just old....

 

Seriously why am I even wondering... I should just buy what I know works well.. Right? Yet to point out the obviousness of what I am referring to.. see below. Oh yeah notice the other little caviot that they fail to mention in the commericals I have bolded it below... you will love this.

 

11. 5 year/100,000 Mile Ford Powertrain Limited Warranty

(Florida, Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, Guam,

American Samoa, and Saipan Deliveries Only)*

The 5 year/100,000 mile Powertrain Limited Warranty coverage is provided

on eligible vehicles delivered to customers in Puerto Rico, US Virgin

Islands, Guam, American Samoa, Saipan and the State of Florida.

Ford Motor Company will provide for repair or replacement of covered

components on the vehicle during the Warranty Period in accordance

with the following terms, conditions, and limitations.

² Warranty coverage. Under the Powertrain Limited Warranty you are

provided with 5 years of limited warranty coverage from the original

Ford New Vehicle Limited Warranty start date or up to 100,000 miles

on the odometer, whichever comes first.

32

² Eligible Vehicles. All 2007 Model Year Ford Focus deliveries in Puerto

Rico, US Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, Saipan and the

State of Florida.

² Repairs covered under the Powertrain Limited Warranty. Your

Ford dealer will repair, replace or adjust all covered components, as

specified on page 35, that fail due to defective material or workmanship

or wear and tear resulting from defective material or workmanship

during the applicable warranty period. After 5 years/60,000 miles

(whichever occurs first), vehicles have a $100 standard deductible per

repair visit for covered repairs. Damage and items not covered under

the Powertrain Limited Warranty, are specified on page 35.

² Covered Components. 29 powertrain components. (See Parts Coverage

Under The Ford Powertrain Limited Warranty.)

Edited September 18, 2006 by shrewd

[Noah Harbinger]

Now let’s talk a moment about what I am speaking of about reliability. These cars do not have great resale values, so you really have to like the car as you watch the resale drop. Every sales man has admitted this easily to me, even as Kbb shows the same thing.

 

The Five Hundred and Fusion have predicted 3-year residuals that almost exactly match the Camry. (about 42% instead of 45%, when I looked it up -- numbers are from memory, and not exact).

 

There have been no major quality issues with either of these cars. In this respect, Ford is really turning a new leaf.

[shrewd]

The Five Hundred and Fusion have predicted 3-year residuals that almost exactly match the Camry. (about 42% instead of 45%, when I looked it up -- numbers are from memory, and not exact).

 

There have been no major quality issues with either of these cars. In this respect, Ford is really turning a new leaf.

 

Then back it up with a warrantee. If their product is such high quality that you say it is, then there will not be a huge increase in warrantee costs and it can only help ford out. If it is NOT it still will draw more buyers to help offset the costs of their greater warrantee repairs. Get more customers actually having owned a Ford, and if service is high quality probably get them to come back.

 

Talk is cheap. Action speaks volumes. All I see from Ford, is an effort to end operations in North America. Plant closing after plant closing to reduce production to deal with demand... but relatively NOTHING to INCREASE DEMAND!!! That is why their plan will fail.

Edited September 18, 2006 by shrewd