Mulally already shaking up Ford

[RichardJensen]

Richard, Zeta was given to Holden to develop the VE Commodore. The platform, which was needed anyway, cost US$750 Million to develop. The costs were born by Holden so GM in NA can't loose

Well, the cars could be less popular than their FWD forebears, for one.

[J-150]

Well, the cars could be less popular than their FWD forebears, for one.

 

 

 

not with the cops.

 

A rear drive Impala would put the CV out of business almost overnight.

[RichardJensen]

not with the cops.

 

A rear drive Impala would put the CV out of business almost overnight.

Probably not.

 

Nothing's going to put the CV out of business overnight.

[goingincirclez]

"...If car companies only build cars with the specific purpose of "benefitting the rest of the lineup" they will not only miss out on making some really great cars they will also soon find that everything in their lineup looks the same and before you know it none of it is selling..." "...or is it just obvious they shouldn't try to sell a sedan to a man that came looking for a roadster?"

I couldn't agree more. I recall some of the first ads for the Cobalt, where it kept bumping a Corvette like a young punk 'till the Vette did a 180 and laid the smack down, lol. Cute commercial... but I didn't for a second think that the Cobalt had ANYTHING worthy in common with the Corvette. I mean, we all know the Chevette was a real stomper, based on theat shared "vette" suffix, right? Gimme a break!

 

Consumers are so much savvier than that. They know what they want - what others get to play with is irrelevant.

 

Take the Ford GT. A real "halo" car. A dream car. A car that can mix it up with the best the entire world has to offer. I'm not knocking the GT in the least, but, well - Gee, it's worked wonders for Ford's overall predicament, hasn't it? All those sequestered celebrities and richie rich types who phoned in their orders and bank account numbers also decided to tack on a 500 or two while they were at it, didn't they?

 

No... what halo cars do is make people like me wonder whyTF we can't have those same improvements in the rest of the line. They finally got a 300hp RWD mod 4.6 in the Mustang - yet withold it from the Panthers. They can throw their best engineering and slap a Shelby badge on a Mustang just to make yet another exclusive plaything for the rich - but let SVT wither and die. "Mustang this, Mustang that, oh we made the GT too..." and the common man couldn't care less. Instead we contend with "barely good enough" Duratecs in the 500 and Freestyle. Wow, all that GT engineering really payed off there!

 

It's the same for the Viper, for the Solstice, the Vette, or what have you. Classic T-birds and muscle cars too - they are in a class by themselves. Which is why they are always sought out, faults forgiven; the companies who built them are an afterthought as the rest of their lines are crushed in junkyards on a daily basis.

 

Don't get me wrong - I am very glad that Ford can pull of cars like the GT and Shelbys and whatnot. But why should their deep-pocket customers have all the fun? Why do the guys on a budget have to be on the outside looking in?

 

Saying that "halo cars" are effective is like saying Ford would be able to sell every 500 they could build simply because the F150 is so kickass... :slap:

Edited September 23, 2006 by goingincirclez

[retro-man]

Do you really think of a Corvette and think "Gee that Impala sure is nice too."?

Two words: SS (c. 1965 or so - not the more recent abominations)

 

I didn't drive away in a G6 instead.

 

Because the G6 has nothing for you (or any other non-Oprah audience member). Flashback to the 60's; My dad wanted a T-Bird. We test-drove several. But, there was a baby sister, making 3 kids in our household, and the Thunderbird was a little tight on space. We ended up getting a Galaxie convertible with a Thunderbird 390 under the hood. Red on red with bucket seats. Gorgeous. The car had more room and a bigger trunk than the T-Bird, so was better for us, but had enough Thunderbird in it to satisfy my dad, a car guy. Supposing the only choice in a larger sedan had been a Galaxie "Custom" with a 6 cylinder or a 289, and bench seats. I don't know what my dad would have gotten, but I can assure you it wouldn't have been a Galaxie. Ford sold one more Galaxie because they were able to give it some content from an aspirational, more exclusive car. And there were a lot of Impala SS owners in the 60's whose cars did capture some of the romance of the Vette (and had the cojones under the hood to at least make a good showing). This isn't a difficult concept to understand. I don't get what you're not getting.

 

Is there any equivalent to that Galaxie within the Five Hundred or Fusion lineups? No, there isn't. There used to be somebody called "mustangfamilyguy" here on BON who was always complaining that he wanted Ford to make the Mustang with a larger back seat and decent trunk room. What's he going to do? Go buy a Five Hundred and tell himself "Well, at least I'm not dead yet"? There is nothing - nothing - for a guy like that in the rest of the Ford lineup, and the Mustang wouldn't do for him (I think he was Mormon and had, like, 53 kids - they may have ended up buying an old school bus or something), so no satisfied customer for Ford. If Ford had a midsize or fullsize with some balls, they could have made him happy. But they don't. For a guy like that, with his hopes dashed, it's just a short walk over to the Toyota or Honda dealer. One transportation appliance is as good as another.

Edited September 24, 2006 by retro-man

[jpd80]

Probably not.

 

Nothing's going to put the CV out of business overnight.

 

Mullaly could. Just 'cause you make lots doesn't mean the figures add up any more.

Remember he's a bean counter not a car guy.

Edited September 24, 2006 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

Mullaly could. Just 'cause you make lots doesn't mean the figures add up any more.

Remember he's a bean counter not a car guy.

You have two vehicles in the Ford lineup that sell almost exclusively to fleets.

 

The Taurus and the Crown Vic.

 

The Taurus is being cancelled and the Crown Vic isn't.

 

That should tell you which product Ford is making money on, and which one they aren't.

[Guest Sixcav]

I thought I heard somewhere the Vic was slated to be chopped after the 08. Not sure on that, could be just a rumor.

[igor]

I thought I heard somewhere the Vic was slated to be chopped after the 08. Not sure on that, could be just a rumor.

 

it has a redesign coming for 2009 model year that has been confirmed - Ford is not cancelling it until they have a replacement - and it is likely, they will not botherreplacing this particular achitecture AND purpose. the BOF RWD setup seems to be preferred for true cop work over the UNITBODY RWD setup of the DCX LX or the GM Zeta (the latter being my assumption).

 

it is very likely that Ford will either rework the Panthers for 21st century, leaving them BOF for cops, but raising their retail appeal, or simply continue building the Panthers for cops only, not caring about retail preferences and treand, and built a separate RWD vehicles for Retail off of Mustnag platform or Falcon platform.

 

Igor

 

Mullaly could. Just 'cause you make lots doesn't mean the figures add up any more.

Remember he's a bean counter not a car guy.

 

and the Panther is some sort of a supercar we all adore, that a big bad beancounter would cancel just to hurt our diehard car guys?

 

Last time I checked it was old people boat, that had a single thing going for it in retail market - it is the only RWD sedan Ford makes - If ford made any other RWD sedan, most people here would not give a flying ----- about Panthers anymore.

 

grow up - you are laughable (so is Richard at times, but this comment simply stood out WAY too much - it was completely baseless).

 

Igor

Edited September 24, 2006 by igor

[Roadrunner]

I couldn't agree more. I recall some of the first ads for the Cobalt, where it kept bumping a Corvette like a young punk 'till the Vette did a 180 and laid the smack down, lol. Cute commercial... but I didn't for a second think that the Cobalt had ANYTHING worthy in common with the Corvette. I mean, we all know the Chevette was a real stomper, based on theat shared "vette" suffix, right? Gimme a break!

 

Consumers are so much savvier than that. They know what they want - what others get to play with is irrelevant.

 

I thought it was a good advertisement that indicates the Cobalt is not the Cavalier. It wasn't meant to say, "Cobalt = mini-Corvette."

 

Bold and italics? Heck yeah!

 

 

Mullaly could. Just 'cause you make lots doesn't mean the figures add up any more.

Remember he's a bean counter not a car guy.

 

WTF?

 

No, he's not a bean counter - he's an engineer.

 

Remember, "Sales make money, engineers spend it"

[igor]

I thought it was a good advertisement that indicates the Cobalt is not the Cavalier. It wasn't meant to say, "Cobalt = mini-Corvette."

 

Bold and italics? Heck yeah!

 

 

we all hope that, but do you really think the quad round tail lights are on the Cobalt accidentally?

 

I had a GM guy tell me that Cobalts coupe WAS SUPOSSED TO make people think "mini Corvette" - he pointed out the tail lights and even the commercial you all described above.

 

Now - I know no one inside GM to confirm this - for all I know this might have been this one guy;s fantasy (or justification for buying the car) - but I laughed inside as little bit.

 

Igor

[jpd80]

I thought it was a good advertisement that indicates the Cobalt is not the Cavalier. It wasn't meant to say, "Cobalt = mini-Corvette."

 

Bold and italics? Heck yeah!

WTF?

 

No, he's not a bean counter - he's an engineer.

 

Remember, "Sales make money, engineers spend it"

Just trying to stir Richard up. You Americans are sooooooooo serious.

Igor,Sorry you were born without a sense of humor but, If I grow up any more I'll have to buy a GT Falcon (lol).

Edited September 24, 2006 by jpd80

[Edgey]

When Ford reorganized its engineering teams, they moved the panther to the BOF team, also responsible for the Explorers, F-Series, Rangers, etc... Ford has no plans to update these vehicles so it's hard to interpret what that means since they are obviously long overdue in the way the Ranger is long overdue. We know that the Ranger is going to be replaced/dropped by '08. Who knows how commited Ford is to sustaining the panthers. I would say moving TC production, while not enormously expensive, is evidence that Ford is still committed to the panther. However, a small investment into interior upgrades, safety enhancements, cosmetic changes...are badly needed and should come incrementally if Ford is serious about keeping these cars around. However, we will see NOTHING new for the next 2 years at least. If panthers aren't worth at least a new interior, then what kind of profitability margin are they trying to maintain? It would seem a very tiny one if any type of investment is so difficult to justify.

Edited September 24, 2006 by Edgey

[grbeck]

Two words: SS (c. 1965 or so - not the more recent abominations)

Because the G6 has nothing for you (or any other non-Oprah audience member). Flashback to the 60's; My dad wanted a T-Bird. We test-drove several. But, there was a baby sister, making 3 kids in our household, and the Thunderbird was a little tight on space. We ended up getting a Galaxie convertible with a Thunderbird 390 under the hood. Red on red with bucket seats. Gorgeous. The car had more room and a bigger trunk than the T-Bird, so was better for us, but had enough Thunderbird in it to satisfy my dad, a car guy. Supposing the only choice in a larger sedan had been a Galaxie "Custom" with a 6 cylinder or a 289, and bench seats. I don't know what my dad would have gotten, but I can assure you it wouldn't have been a Galaxie. Ford sold one more Galaxie because they were able to give it some content from an aspirational, more exclusive car. And there were a lot of Impala SS owners in the 60's whose cars did capture some of the romance of the Vette (and had the cojones under the hood to at least make a good showing). This isn't a difficult concept to understand. I don't get what you're not getting.

 

Is there any equivalent to that Galaxie within the Five Hundred or Fusion lineups? No, there isn't. There used to be somebody called "mustangfamilyguy" here on BON who was always complaining that he wanted Ford to make the Mustang with a larger back seat and decent trunk room. What's he going to do? Go buy a Five Hundred and tell himself "Well, at least I'm not dead yet"? There is nothing - nothing - for a guy like that in the rest of the Ford lineup, and the Mustang wouldn't do for him (I think he was Mormon and had, like, 53 kids - they may have ended up buying an old school bus or something), so no satisfied customer for Ford. If Ford had a midsize or fullsize with some balls, they could have made him happy. But they don't. For a guy like that, with his hopes dashed, it's just a short walk over to the Toyota or Honda dealer. One transportation appliance is as good as another.

 

Don't forget Chrysler and Dodge now flogging the Hemi to sell family cars and trucks. And note how the new Dodge Avenger looks like a mini-Charger. Although I can't figure out why Chrysler didn't do more to make the new Sebring resemble the 300.

 

These paragraphs from the article are music to my ears:

 

Mulally wants Ford's finance staff to support the business, not control it as in years past. The number-crunchers will have a place at the table, but inferior or stripped-down vehicles won't go on the road just to make budget.

 

Ford insiders say financial executives have traditionally had a broad say over the budget, including vehicle programs. That has engendered what some call a "culture of stretch," in which product development executive executives overestimate sales volumes and revenues in order to get vehicle programs approved by finance.

 

If Mr. Mulally really achieves this, then there is hope for the Ford Motor Company over the long haul. Cuts in workers and improvements in efficiency can stop the short-term losses, but if Ford wants to really COMPETE AND WIN over the long haul, it is going to have to tackle a finance-dominated culture whose seeds were planted by Robert McNamara and extensively watered by Ed Lundy.

[retro-man]

Chrysler may have overplayed that hand a little, but that's the idea.

 

And I thought about you when I read Mulally's comments on finance. It is a good sign that they may stop letting the penny-wise and pound-foolish dictate the direction of the company (probably cause grief on Wall Street for a little while too - and I'm all for grief on Wall Street).

 

p.s. Thanks for picking up Korten's book. I'm sure a lot of it will generate critique in your mind as you're reading, but some of it is well-founded criticism.

 

Forbes' article on the richest Americans came out the other day - with Bill Gates' net worth at around $50,000,000,000.00. Makes for some interesting math:

- If you worked 40 hours/week, 2,000 hrs./ yr. since Christ was in kindergarten, you would have to make a little over $12,000.00/hr. (and not spend anything) to amass that much wealth.

- At U.S. median family (not per capita) income of around $65,000.00/yr., it would take just over 64,000 years for a family to amass that much wealth.

Edited September 24, 2006 by retro-man

[igor]

Chrysler may have overplayed that hand a little, but that's the idea.

 

And I thought about you when I read Mulally's comments on finance. It is a good sign that they may stop letting the penny-wise and pound-foolish dictate the direction of the company (probably cause grief on Wall Street for a little while too - and I'm all for grief on Wall Street).

 

p.s. Thanks for picking up Korten's book. I'm sure a lot of it will generate critique in your mind as you're reading, but some of it is well-founded criticism.

 

Forbes' article on the richest Americans came out the other day - with Bill Gates' net worth at around $50,000,000,000.00. Makes for some interesting math:

- If you worked 40 hours/week, 2,000 hrs./ yr. since Christ was in kindergarten, you would have to make a little over $12,000.00/hr. (and not spend anything) to amass that much wealth.

- At U.S. median family (not per capita) income of around $65,000.00/yr., it would take just over 64,000 years for a family to amass that much wealth.

 

 

google L-curve you will be shocked - yo uare on the righ track with your thinking but there is more ..

 

Igor

[Edstock]

"When Ford reorganized its engineering teams, they moved the panther to the BOF team, also responsible for the Explorers, F-Series, Rangers, etc... Ford has no plans to update these vehicles"

 

F-series and Panthers are being updated. IIRC, the CV gets updated for the 2K9 MY. With the cost of moving the TC to STAP, it might get a 2K9 update too. We shall see, soon.

 

Of course, now that The Mull is calling the plays, things might change.

[igor]

Just trying to stir Richard up. You Americans are sooooooooo serious.

Igor,Sorry you were born without a sense of humor but, If I grow up any more I'll have to buy a GT Falcon (lol).

 

sorry - missed that piece :D

 

yeah my sense of humor online is often off, or simply ignorant of hints.

 

Igor

[Noah Harbinger]

- If you worked 40 hours/week, 2,000 hrs./ yr. since Christ was in kindergarten, you would have to make a little over $12,000.00/hr. (and not spend anything) to amass that much wealth.

- At U.S. median family (not per capita) income of around $65,000.00/yr., it would take just over 64,000 years for a family to amass that much wealth.

 

That's not quite true -- the 'median family' actually saves so little, that even after 64,000 years of working, they'd probably still be in debt. Though on the other hand, I suppose the 63,970 years after the kids are out of college and the 63,960 years after the mortgage is paid off would help in that respect.

[630land]

Yeah flogging the Hemi sure is selling more new Mopars. Hence, the stock pile of LX cars, Durangos, and Jeeps. And, the huge production cuts, $1B losses. Some people got to stop drinking the "DCX has the 300, so they are doing great" wine, and read the news.

[ZanatWork]

Yeah, both HEMI and LX production have been slowed while inventories have been huge at dealerships all year. DCX also did the "employee pricing" thing all summer, while Ford and GM did lighter inventories clearances.

 

DCX has had smoke and mirrors covering up their shortcomings for years, and I think the truth has caught them.

[Mark B. Morrow]

Two words: SS (c. 1965 or so - not the more recent abominations)

Because the G6 has nothing for you (or any other non-Oprah audience member). Flashback to the 60's; My dad wanted a T-Bird. We test-drove several. But, there was a baby sister, making 3 kids in our household, and the Thunderbird was a little tight on space. We ended up getting a Galaxie convertible with a Thunderbird 390 under the hood. Red on red with bucket seats. Gorgeous. The car had more room and a bigger trunk than the T-Bird, so was better for us, but had enough Thunderbird in it to satisfy my dad, a car guy. Supposing the only choice in a larger sedan had been a Galaxie "Custom" with a 6 cylinder or a 289, and bench seats. I don't know what my dad would have gotten, but I can assure you it wouldn't have been a Galaxie. Ford sold one more Galaxie because they were able to give it some content from an aspirational, more exclusive car. And there were a lot of Impala SS owners in the 60's whose cars did capture some of the romance of the Vette (and had the cojones under the hood to at least make a good showing). This isn't a difficult concept to understand. I don't get what you're not getting.

 

Is there any equivalent to that Galaxie within the Five Hundred or Fusion lineups? No, there isn't. There used to be somebody called "mustangfamilyguy" here on BON who was always complaining that he wanted Ford to make the Mustang with a larger back seat and decent trunk room. What's he going to do? Go buy a Five Hundred and tell himself "Well, at least I'm not dead yet"? There is nothing - nothing - for a guy like that in the rest of the Ford lineup, and the Mustang wouldn't do for him (I think he was Mormon and had, like, 53 kids - they may have ended up buying an old school bus or something), so no satisfied customer for Ford. If Ford had a midsize or fullsize with some balls, they could have made him happy. But they don't. For a guy like that, with his hopes dashed, it's just a short walk over to the Toyota or Honda dealer. One transportation appliance is as good as another.

 

Retroman, Was the Galaxie an XL? That was Ford's answer to the SS. Bucket seats, center consloe upgraded interior, model designation call outs on the body to distinguish it from the Galaxie 500. It was truly the car for a family guy who didn't want plain vanilla and couldn't have a T-bird due to space or price. It was a great car and one that Ford needs to bring back.

 

The Mercury Marauder S-55 was its twin in the '60s. The last Marauder was a nice try but Ford dropped the ball on the power and marketing. I have two friends who have Marauders and kids. They love them. Great trunk space cool looks and the added benefit that all left lane traffic gets out of their way on the Interstate.

 

I would love to see a new 500XL with the V-8, AWD and unique front/rear facias upgraded interior. It can't be that hard to do.

[ZanatWork]

So go to Ford.com and TELL THEM...hell, even address a letter and/or e-mail to the new CEO and see if he replies.

[TheLemon]

So go to Ford.com and TELL THEM...hell, even address a letter and/or e-mail to the new CEO and see if he replies.

 

He won't....

 

All their mail is filtered.....

[ebritt]

I mean it's got a 4-cylinder, 177hp, 166 lb. ft. ecotec motor in it. What are they going to do? Slap that motor in the Grand Prix and stick a "Powered by Solstice" badge on the fender to add luster to the lineup? My point is that the Solstice - no matter how great a car it may be - is not in a position to benefit the rest of the lineup in any way. Halo cars have to have something to give the rest of the lineup, and the rest of the lineup has to be able to recieve that gift.

 

Ford has a great organ donor car in the Mustang, but nothing in the rest of the lineup that can recieve what the Mustang has to give. T-Bird and Lincoln could have filled the donor role as well, but they are too starved and weak by now to help.

The Ecotec engine has serious potential, the GXP Soltice/Sky Redline get 260hp from a 2.0l Ecotec variant. there are 500+ hp racing Ecotecs out there, not bad for a 4 banger. The 260hp engine in a Cobalt or G6 would kick some butt! Or in the HHR. Add sporty leather racing seats and tuned suspension and you could have a serious Civic Si, WRX fighter on your hands. Keep it on the affordable side and you could sell quite a few I'll bet.