Stray Kat Posted September 28, 2022 Author Share Posted September 28, 2022 48 minutes ago, jpd80 said: They found less power used with chain drive oil pump, did Coyote go this way too? I think ther was talk of that. With a crank mounted 1:1 oil pump you are over pumping oil sometimes by a lot. As rpm’s go up cavitation can be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 During reveal, Jackie DiMarco stated the 6.8L was designed for “durability and efficiency”. With its heavy-duty truck design, it may also find its way into E-350 and perhaps E-450 as the standard engine, with 7.3L a higher-cost option. In lower GVWR motorhome applications, any fuel efficiency gain would be welcomed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 2 hours ago, jpd80 said: The 6.8 is offered so that Ford can continue charging more for the 7.3. The 6.8 being less costly to manufacture than the 6.2 is an improvement in savings while also allowing Ford to close Romeo engine. Ford is making the 6.8 available in XL and XLT so obvious that it’s main market is fleet sales - keep in mind that this will compete against GM’s 6.6, so still slightly more capacity but cheaper to produce… and yes, it’s also marketing spin that Ford has something new while increasing the power and torque of 7.3 to justify continuing the premium price, same for high output 6.7 Diesel. It all about saving money while charging more and making the customer think it’s a good deal. I didn’t mean marketing spin just that they can make the 6.8 the base engine allowing an up charge for the 7.3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESP08 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 Is the 7.3 actually getting a power bump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 23 minutes ago, ESP08 said: Is the 7.3 actually getting a power bump? According to Ford - yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted September 28, 2022 Share Posted September 28, 2022 2 hours ago, Stray Kat said: With a crank mounted 1:1 oil pump you are over pumping oil sometimes by a lot. As rpm’s go up cavitation can be a problem. Yes, but for some reason the 7.3L chain drive oil pump is a 1:1 ratio to the crank. Maybe because of the pump's variable displacement design? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 1 hour ago, akirby said: I didn’t mean marketing spin just that they can make the 6.8 the base engine allowing an up charge for the 7.3. Yes, same as now with 6.2 vs 7.3 but you watch Ford spin this with new 6.8 & 10R100 as big improvement over 6.2 & 6AT. This could also be cover for Silverado 2500 with 6.6 v8 gas engine…. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 6 hours ago, jpd80 said: They found less power used with chain drive oil pump, did Coyote go this way too? I think ther was talk of that. If the parts explosion on Ford's parts site can be believed, it looks like the gear for the oil pump is driven by a belt rather than being directly driven by the crank. I'm not entirely sure I trust their parts site, though. The freaking oil pump is the fifth result when you search for "oil pump," behind four transmission oil pumps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 3 hours ago, SoonerLS said: If the parts explosion on Ford's parts site can be believed, it looks like the gear for the oil pump is driven by a belt rather than being directly driven by the crank. I'm not entirely sure I trust their parts site, though. The freaking oil pump is the fifth result when you search for "oil pump," behind four transmission oil pumps... The 7.3’s oil pump is most definitely chain driven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 Just thinking about the 6.8/7.3 possible power and torque versus the GM 6.6 V8, Direct Injection gives the 6.6 L8T 464 lb ft @ 4,000 and 401 hp @ 5,200 (400 lb ft) If the 7.3 is increased to 450 hp/485 lb ft, then that would put the 6.8 around 420 hp/450 lb ft then that would give both Ford engines a broad torque curve and real advantage over the GM V8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 6 hours ago, jpd80 said: Yes, same as now with 6.2 vs 7.3 but you watch Ford spin this with new 6.8 & 10R100 as big improvement over 6.2 & 6AT. This could also be cover for Silverado 2500 with 6.6 v8 gas engine…. That's what I am thinking, the 6.8L/10R100 should be an improvement over the 6.2L/6R100. Have a hunch that GM's existing 6.6L gasser will be both more powerful and more efficient due to direct injection than the 6.8L, and they may play that up touting 'most powerful standard gas engine'. However, since GM will be teaming the 6.6L gas with the Allison 10 speed, it will likely be more expensive than the 6.8L/10R100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 30 minutes ago, 7Mary3 said: That's what I am thinking, the 6.8L/10R100 should be an improvement over the 6.2L/6R100. Have a hunch that GM's existing 6.6L gasser will be both more powerful and more efficient due to direct injection than the 6.8L, and they may play that up touting 'most powerful standard gas engine'. However, since GM will be teaming the 6.6L gas with the Allison 10 speed, it will likely be more expensive than the 6.8L/10R100. Power and torque output is them new measuring contest, be interesting to see which company wants bragging rights the most…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 6 hours ago, 7Mary3 said: That's what I am thinking, the 6.8L/10R100 should be an improvement over the 6.2L/6R100. Have a hunch that GM's existing 6.6L gasser will be both more powerful and more efficient due to direct injection than the 6.8L, and they may play that up touting 'most powerful standard gas engine'. However, since GM will be teaming the 6.6L gas with the Allison 10 speed, it will likely be more expensive than the 6.8L/10R100. On a sidenote, isn’t GM’s Allison transmission Allison in name only? I thought I had read that GM is actually building the transmissions and not Allison. It is unclear to me how much of the transmission is actually Allison at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rperez817 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 1 hour ago, tbone said: On a sidenote, isn’t GM’s Allison transmission Allison in name only? I thought I had read that GM is actually building the transmissions and not Allison. It is unclear to me how much of the transmission is actually Allison at this point. Good points tbone, the GM-Allison 10L1000 transmission had some engineering assistance provided by Allison, but for the most part it was designed by GM. Assembly takes place at the GM Propulsion System plant in Toledo, Ohio, not the Allison plant in Indianapolis, Indiana. GMC to offer 10-speed fully automatic Allison branded transmissions in 2020 Sierra Heavy Duties (allisontransmission.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 1 hour ago, rperez817 said: Good points tbone, the GM-Allison 10L1000 transmission had some engineering assistance provided by Allison, but for the most part it was designed by GM. Assembly takes place at the GM Propulsion System plant in Toledo, Ohio, not the Allison plant in Indianapolis, Indiana. GMC to offer 10-speed fully automatic Allison branded transmissions in 2020 Sierra Heavy Duties (allisontransmission.com) Actually further to T-bone's post, I thought these 8-10 speeds were a JV between Ford and GM...with slight differences in control set ups??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 3 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said: Actually further to T-bone's post, I thought these 8-10 speeds were a JV between Ford and GM...with slight differences in control set ups??? True for the light duty 10 speeds. Ford's heavy duty10R140 is basically a scale-up of the light duty 10 speed, GM went their own way (with assistance from Allison) on the 10L1000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESP08 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 The Allison 10L1000 absolutely, unequivocally used the 10R80 as its architectural starting point. It was not a clean sheet design 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, jpd80 said: The 7.3’s oil pump is most definitely chain driven. I was responding to your question about the Coyote. It looks like the Coyote does now have a belt-driven oil pump. ETA: I don't know if the Coyote uses a belt or a chain, but the part is called a timing belt in the online parts catalog. Edited September 29, 2022 by SoonerLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 6 hours ago, SoonerLS said: I was responding to your question about the Coyote. It looks like the Coyote does now have a belt-driven oil pump. ETA: I don't know if the Coyote uses a belt or a chain, but the part is called a timing belt in the online parts catalog. So originally, the Mods, Coyote and cyclone V6 all had oil pump mounted on the front of the crank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 3 hours ago, jpd80 said: So originally, the Mods, Coyote and cyclone V6 all had oil pump mounted on the front of the crank Yep. It looks like the Coyote used a front-mounted, directly-driven oil pump from MY 2011-2020, then switched to a bottom-mount, belt-driven pump for MY 2021, at least in the F-150. (I presume that the same change happened for the Mustang, but I didn't look it up.) FWIW, the parts catalog shows a photo of the direct-drive pump for the earlier Coyotes, but only a drawing of the 2021+ pump, and that drawing looks remarkably similar to the picture you posted of Godzilla's chain-driven pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 On 9/27/2022 at 11:52 PM, 7Mary3 said: I believe someone suggested that if they kept the same bore as the 7.3L and used the 6.2L crank the result would be a 6.8L. In the TFL Truck video I posted in the Super Duty thread, Andre says, and the Ford guy confirms, that the 6.8 has a smaller bore and stroke than the 7.3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, SoonerLS said: In the TFL Truck video I posted in the Super Duty thread, Andre says, and the Ford guy confirms, that the 6.8 has a smaller bore and stroke than the 7.3. Interesting. Another source said this, Quote https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-2023-ford-super-dutys-new-6-8l-v8-is-a-destroked-godzilla The 6.8-liter is still a basic cast-iron pushrod engine with a cam-in-block design, just like the 7.3-liter. Similarly, it sticks with aluminum heads and two valves per cylinder. It's got an identical bore of 4.22 inches, but stroke is reduced from 3.98 to 3.68 inches, accounting for the lower displacement. Compression gets a slight bump to 10.8:1, compared to 10.5:1 in the larger lump. It's a minor change, though, and the new engine is still designed to run on 87 octane fuel. Will be intersting when Ford finally decides to share more details, I think they’re waiting to see that GM says about the 2023 HD twins’ 6.6 gasoline V8 power and torque. Edited September 30, 2022 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick73 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Bore and stroke are listed in preliminary technical specifications. https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North America/US/2022/09/27/2023-ford-f-series-super-duty-technical-specifications.pdf Perhaps a smaller bore will come later if an aluminum version is manufactured for Mustang and F-150. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESP08 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, SoonerLS said: I was responding to your question about the Coyote. It looks like the Coyote does now have a belt-driven oil pump. ETA: I don't know if the Coyote uses a belt or a chain, but the part is called a timing belt in the online parts catalog. Gen 4 Coyotes have belt driven oil pumps Edited September 30, 2022 by ESP08 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 Looks like a lot more complication and cost for a fuel economy bump no one will ever notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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