It still seems like getting rid of the Fusion was a mistake.

[ice-capades]

33 minutes ago, paintguy said:

As much as I liked Ford sedan products (own a Taurus SHO), have to admit business case for sedans is clouded. All product planning must come under much scrutiny. On one hand, there is some government insistence on BEVs. Yet the public has great reluctance to go full on BEV. And there is still uncertainty in which battery technology to pursue, all at relatively high cost. So the course includes several models with significant overlap with ICE, hybrid, PHEV and BEV competing for attention. Also distressing is design limitations make BEV and ICE almost exclusively on separate architecture. Very expensive proposition. 

 

The market has changed dramatically over the years. Years ago, there were many models available as convertibles, including 4-door models. Then there were safety concerns and convertible model availability dropped considerably until convertibles were available mostly to sports cars with a few exceptions. Along the same lines, most vehicle lines were available in both 4-door and 2-door models until buyer preferences changes to wanting primarily 4-door models which started the demise of the 2-door models. Years later, the "command seating" designs offered with SUV/CUV vehicles became attractive to customers, including the AWD capability, and the transition to SUV/CUV vehicles accelerated. Now we're dealing with the industry changing transition to BEV vehicles and the pricing as well as technology issues (range and charging) involved. The charging issues include apartment and condominium owners that can't install charging units and rely on public chargers where available. 

 

BEV vehicle pricing is a major issue as current pricing still excludes mainstream customers. The technology is still developing and until BEV vehicles are price competitive with ICE vehicles, it'll be years before BEV vehicle sales accelerate to the levels desired by government objectives and/or mandates.

 

It would be interesting to know how many customers are actually able to take full advantage of the available Federal tax credits as they're tax credits and not rebates. 

 

Just sharing some thoughts here. 

[silvrsvt]

7 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Got nothing against trucks, but kinda ridiculous to waste a truck to drive oneself and maybe a lunch bucket to work. 

 

That is simple-people are willing to spend more money on a vehicle that acts like a swiss army knife then basic transportation that a sedan or coupe is. There are a whole host of reasons why, and much of it is touched on in this thread.

 

There is lots of fist shaking at the sky that US consumers need to buy smaller cars, when they never really did unless they where dirt cheap and that doesn't really work out well for Automakers.

[silvrsvt]

7 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

A combination of cars being more expensive, but also far more reliable than they used to. Consumers just don't need to replace their cars as often as they used to. I wouldn't be surprised if we started to see brands offering services like retrofitting interiors with more modern components. Something that encouraged buyers to make repeat purchases with a brand, even if they weren't replacing their car. 

 

There is a Honda commercials that touched on that point. It sounds good, but not 100% if there is a good business model for it. 

[Chrisgb]

14 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

That is simple-people are willing to spend more money on a vehicle that acts like a swiss army knife then basic transportation that a sedan or coupe is. There are a whole host of reasons why, and much of it is touched on in this thread.

been 

There is lots of fist shaking at the sky that US consumers need to buy smaller cars, when they never really did unless they where dirt cheap and that doesn't really work out well for Automakers.

Ride in any late model full size 4dr pickup, especially 2wd. America has always about glider smooth ride and bring everybody and everything along. Today's F-150, Silverado, Ram1500 are the replacements for Crown Victoria, Impala, and Fury/Monaco. We used to pull our boats & RVs, go dear & elk hunting in our sedans and wagons. The need for big iron will likely always be in the American psyche. If I was a product planner, I'd bring out  e-Vics; 4000+lb towing, 3-box sedans and 2-box wagons and shaped for aesthetics and not EPA regs, and with a model that put all the level ll & lll nanny features in a separate option group.

 

1948 Wisconsin Rapids hunters, 1936 Chevrolet? Note the bear on the driver's side roof!

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Chrisgb

[GearheadGrrrl]

You have described well the core market for half ton pickups- Boomers who really want the huge 60s full size sedans and wagons of their youth. May as well give them what they really want and let them (prematurely) die happy...

[silvrsvt]

14 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

You have described well the core market for half ton pickups- Boomers who really want the huge 60s full size sedans and wagons of their youth. May as well give them what they really want and let them (prematurely) die happy...

 

Sigh..that isn't truth

 

 

The vast majority of buyers are Gen X or younger....

 

[HotRunrGuy]

21 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Sigh..that isn't truth

 

 

The vast majority of buyers are Gen X or younger....

 

 

That survey is over 3 years old, would be interesting if the 40% excited for a EV truck would still apply.

 

https://fordauthority.com/2020/06/new-ford-survey-gives-us-a-fascinating-look-at-americas-love-affair-with-trucks/

 

HRG

[GearheadGrrrl]

23 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Sigh..that isn't truth

 

 

The vast majority of buyers are Gen X or younger....

 

Gen X is 43 to 58, not exactly young by US standards...

 

A lot of the younger buyers actually need pickups for work...

 

And as a 73 year old who can enter and exit a Mustang and shift gears for myself, I fail to see the attraction of a crew cab short bed half ton pickup.

[silvrsvt]

9 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Gen X is 43 to 58, not exactly young by US standards...

 

A lot of the younger buyers actually need pickups for work...

 

And as a 73 year old who can enter and exit a Mustang and shift gears for myself, I fail to see the attraction of a crew cab short bed half ton pickup.

 

The last Baby Boomers where born in 1964 and Gen X started 1965 till late 1970s.

 

So that makes youngest boomers in their 60s

 

And Gen X are not boomers either.

 

And this isn't about you but you conveniently forget that and don't break your hip when you fall out of your mustang, grandma

 

[GearheadGrrrl]

Nice thing about a Mustang is there ain't far to fall, climbed into an F150 Lightning and was astonished that there was no handhold on the right side so I could do the proper "3 points of contact" climb into the cab. And as a sometime wheelchair user I know the Mustang is probably the only Ford product left here than is low enough for transfers without a $10K lift chair or chair lift.

[HotRunrGuy]

14 minutes ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Nice thing about a Mustang is there ain't far to fall, climbed into an F150 Lightning and was astonished that there was no handhold on the right side so I could do the proper "3 points of contact" climb into the cab. And as a sometime wheelchair user I know the Mustang is probably the only Ford product left here than is low enough for transfers without a $10K lift chair or chair lift.

 

Really?  I find my 80 y/o sisters' 2003 Mustang to be a PITA to get in/out of, my Maverick is much easier. My brother & SIL find their Edges easier to use than their previous Fusion.

 

HRG

Edited December 23, 2023 by HotRunrGuy

[GearheadGrrrl]

20 minutes ago, HotRunrGuy said:

 

Really?  I find my 80 y/o sisters' 2003 Mustang to be a PITA to get in/out of, my Maverick is much easier. My brother & SIL find their Edges easier to use than their previous Fusion.

 

HRG

But when you're transferring from a chair 20 inches above the ground a low car is a good thing- That's why a lot of wheelchair using drivers are hoarding 2 door coupes. Ford seems to have never caught on to that market, GM was smart enough to feature the S10 pickup with it's low height and suicide doors with a wheelchair using GM Engineer as their model in ads in Sports & Spokes.

[ice-capades]

1 hour ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

But when you're transferring from a chair 20 inches above the ground a low car is a good thing- That's why a lot of wheelchair using drivers are hoarding 2 door coupes. Ford seems to have never caught on to that market, GM was smart enough to feature the S10 pickup with it's low height and suicide doors with a wheelchair using GM Engineer as their model in ads in Sports & Spokes.

 

My 72-year-old brother-in-law went in for a common back surgery procedure exactly 3 months ago and has been paralyzed from the waist down since in what is going to be a malpractice suit. My sister worked as an OT for 30 plus years but specialized in pediatrics and this new situation is beyond her usual expertise. She's been working with PT's on wheelchair to vehicle transfer and close to being able to make it happen as their vehicle is an SUV and the height differential has been a real obstacle to overcome. As such, they've had to rely on medical transport services at a cost of $225 each time which is not covered by insurance. My BIL is getting sensations in his legs which is progress, but the prognosis and timeline is still uncertain, and my sister is refusing to consider another vehicle so far. She and other therapists are working with him, and she's convinced that he's going to walk again. If anyone can make it happen, she can!     

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Sigh..that isn't truth

 

 

The vast majority of buyers are Gen X or younger....

 

If these findings are accurate, it's nice to see that the majority of Ford truck buyers are young. A major concern I've had is the Ford brand continuing to resonate with younger generations moving forward. 

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

But when you're transferring from a chair 20 inches above the ground a low car is a good thing- That's why a lot of wheelchair using drivers are hoarding 2 door coupes. Ford seems to have never caught on to that market, GM was smart enough to feature the S10 pickup with it's low height and suicide doors with a wheelchair using GM Engineer as their model in ads in Sports & Spokes.

It depends, I'm somewhat of an authority on this topic, as my youngest brother is severely disabled, I've worked with severely disabled individuals, and have spent a great deal of time around older folks, particularly my grandma, who was 94 before she passed a month ago. 

 

What I've found, is you want height, but not too much height. Our maverick and 2017 explorer are perfect examples of this. You don't want something that's lifted and three feet off the ground, but you don't want a low slung sports car either. 

 

Older people in their 50s and 60s can't articulate to save their lives. Trying to jump up into something, or crouch down is almost impossible. My father is 67, we rented a Corolla recently, it genuinely took him about 5 mins to get in and out, and a Corolla isn't even that low to the ground compared to a lot of coupes. That's one of the sadder things about getting old, you finally have the money to buy nice things, like a sports car. But your body doesn't let you enjoy it. 

[Captainp4]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

It depends, I'm somewhat of an authority on this topic, as my youngest brother is severely disabled, I've worked with severely disabled individuals, and have spent a great deal of time around older folks, particularly my grandma, who was 94 before she passed a month ago. 

 

What I've found, is you want height, but not too much height. Our maverick and 2017 explorer are perfect examples of this. You don't want something that's lifted and three feet off the ground, but you don't want a low slung sports car either. 

 

Older people in their 50s and 60s can't articulate to save their lives. Trying to jump up into something, or crouch down is almost impossible. My father is 67, we rented a Corolla recently, it genuinely took him about 5 mins to get in and out, and a Corolla isn't even that low to the ground compared to a lot of coupes. That's one of the sadder things about getting old, you finally have the money to buy nice things, like a sports car. But your body doesn't let you enjoy it. 

My dad is 70 and in pretty good shape (he has been in the landscaping business for 35+ years and refuses to stop working, he just wants to keep working.. I took over part of the business a few years back, hence my experience with superduties past and present) but I still have his first plow truck 95 f350, that I also learned to drive in when I was 10 or so, but have it on 37s and lifted a couple inches now.. I about died laughing at him trying to get in it when we were dropping his classic car off at the paint shop a few months back. I realize it's not common and I don't expect to be as strong or nimble as him at that age because I already feel like I'm 70 most days, but there are some exceptions lol