EPA Lowers Prius Mileage Estimate

[bri719]

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006...priius_epa.html

 

 

No big surprise. What most of us have been remarking on for so long...

 

Two examples of the most remarkable car spin I've read in some time:

"One Prius owner told ConsumerAffairs.Com that her Toyota technician went so far as to explain how the onboard computer in the Prius took into account of head winds along with other sophisticated calculations." - with regards to Toyota suggesting owners didn't know how to correctly interpret their cars' mileage.

 

and,

"A Toyota spokeswoman said her company expects customers to understand that the technology in the Prius hasn't changed, and company marketing for the popular hybrid will not be revised."

 

 

oh my. I can envision the lawyers salivating already

Edited December 20, 2006 by bri719

[ebritt]

I hope they get their asses sued off! The arrogance of the Japanese companies and the willingness of the media to cover their asses has gone on too long.

[bec5150]

How can you sue Toyota for the EPA rating the MPG unrealistically? Now if owners want to sue the EPA, now that's another story.

[Keyser Soze]

I hope they get their asses sued off! The arrogance of the Japanese companies and the willingness of the media to cover their asses has gone on too long.

 

EPA ratings are generated by the US government. I have rarely acheived these numbers in any car I have owned, American, Japanese, or German. I'm not sure how the media has covered the asses of Japanese manufacturers on this. Can you explain?

[Catalepsy]

I don't think actual MPG matter anyway. Prius has never been about mpg. Just about every automotive publication that tested it has stated the milage was unrealistic. As long as there are needy & self absorbed people out there, Prius will sell extremely well no matter what the EPA says.

Edited December 21, 2006 by Catalepsy

[swenson88]

Isn't the EPA going to be downgrading the mpg of every vehicle for 2008? I don't think the Prius does any worse percentage-wise than any other car when comparing real-world vs. EPA mileage, considering most owners state they get high-40's combined. Can you name another carof similar size out there getting that sort of mileage?

[92merc]

"Isn't the EPA going to be downgrading the mpg of every vehicle for 2008?"

 

Not exactly. They're revising their testing methods. What you'll see is some cars came out "optimistically" rated, oh I don't know, say a Prius, will come out much worse on the test. Others may only drop 1MPG, if that. It has to do with a lot of variables. Such as the original testing and how hard they drove it. Weight of the vehicle, engine size, tranny speed, etc. From what I've read, the testing is now more real world and should reflect a lot closer to what people were actually already getting. I think it includes now some 70-75 mph tests. While technically over the speed limit, it's real world...

[akirby]

Isn't the EPA going to be downgrading the mpg of every vehicle for 2008? I don't think the Prius does any worse percentage-wise than any other car when comparing real-world vs. EPA mileage, considering most owners state they get high-40's combined. Can you name another carof similar size out there getting that sort of mileage?

 

Hybrids will take a bigger hit than other vehicles with the 2008 tests. The main reason is A/C. Previous tests were done without A/C. In the new city tests, there are 5 different city cycles that get averaged together. 2 or 3 of these will be done with A/C. In a Prius, if you run the A/C the gas engine runs constantly and won't shut off when idling which eliminates the biggest advantage of a hybrid in city driving.

 

And most consumers don't read car magazines - they just look at the epa sticker and think that's what they'll get.

[mrjones944]

Isn't the EPA going to be downgrading the mpg of every vehicle for 2008? I don't think the Prius does any worse percentage-wise than any other car when comparing real-world vs. EPA mileage, considering most owners state they get high-40's combined. Can you name another carof similar size out there getting that sort of mileage?

 

My ranger has averaged better than the EPA estimates since I bought it new 5 years ago....with the exception of winter months when the fuel switch occurs.

[ANTAUS]

A few things come to mind...

 

People should sue the EPA for the above issues, but really, your sueing the government, you'll have a hard time winning.

 

Toyota spun the issue around when a few journalists mentioned that they never received anything NEAR the EPA estimate posted on the Prius' window. Toyota stated that owners were more appreciative of the technology, rather than the fuel savings...Uh huh...yeah.

 

Escape Hybrid is another vehicle that the engine must turn on, for the A/C compressor to work. I'm sure that one will be impacted.

 

The EPA can hide behind a simple word "Estimated". WHich is why Consumer Reports has recently received some fire, when their beloved Camry's and Accord they are recommending, are not being AS realiable with their owners as Consumer Report suggest. They hide behind a simple word "Predicted, Reliability"...Which has, just as much credibility as Miss Cleo.

[630land]

I never did pay atttention to EPA Hwy ratings. The City mileage is usally about average.

 

The Highway figure is if you are going 55 with cruise control on a flat Interstate.

[ANTAUS]

My HWY MPG, IS, my EPA estimated CTY cycle LOL

[hoss96racing]

My ranger has averaged better than the EPA estimates since I bought it new 5 years ago....with the exception of winter months when the fuel switch occurs.

 

same here.. my cavalier is rated at like 24-28 and I consistatnly get 29 in winter and 32 in summer... I do drive mostly highway but at 75mph....

[swenson88]

same here.. my cavalier is rated at like 24-28 and I consistatnly get 29 in winter and 32 in summer... I do drive mostly highway but at 75mph....

 

My 2001 Jeep Cherokee 4.0 automatic seems to fit the EPA numbers almost perfectly. They state 15mpg city, 20mpg highway and that's probably spot on. If I do no highway driving I tend to get right about 15mpg and on the rare occasions when a tank was almost completely highway miles I got 20mpg even. I usually drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit around town and usually set the cruise control to 68 mph on the highway.

[mrjones944]

My 2001 Jeep Cherokee 4.0 automatic seems to fit the EPA numbers almost perfectly. They state 15mpg city, 20mpg highway and that's probably spot on. If I do no highway driving I tend to get right about 15mpg and on the rare occasions when a tank was almost completely highway miles I got 20mpg even. I usually drive 5-10 mph over the speed limit around town and usually set the cruise control to 68 mph on the highway.

 

I wonder if the domestics will see less of a drop than the imports???

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Well, Toyota's Gas engines do tend to achieve their epa figures. My 06 corolla S(gone over why I bought it before, I didn't have much of a choice) is rated at 30 city and 38 highway. During my combined cycle daily drive, which includes about 25% highway and 75% non-stop bumper to bumper crawling in traffic, I achieve about 28 mpg. On a trip I took across the state several months ago, averaging 85 mph, I got 37 mpg on the highway. That fits well with the 38 mpg figure.

 

I actually get better fuel economy numbers in the winter down here. We don't use oxegenated fuels in my area, and the winter is the only time that I don't have to run the A/C continually in the car.

[Mark B. Morrow]

I have never taken the EPA estimates seriously. If you live in a place like Pittsburgh where every 2 blocks is a hill, you won't even come close. I am sure the tests are done in some nice flat place like Kansas.

[StevenCaylor]

I've found the EPA highway number to be accurate. With straight highway driving, I'd get the rated 26 MPG on my 87 T-Bird and I get 29 MPG on my 2000 Mustang. It's the city rating that falls short for me. With the Mustang, I only get 15-16 in town instead of the rated 20 MPG.

[swenson88]

I have never taken the EPA estimates seriously. If you live in a place like Pittsburgh where every 2 blocks is a hill, you won't even come close. I am sure the tests are done in some nice flat place like Kansas.

 

Actually they're not done on any roads at all but are simulated in some sort of test lab using a dyno and a computer programmed system. I found this on howstuffworks.com:

 

"In fact, tested vehicles don't reach the pavement at all. Rather, a car or truck's fuel economy is measure d under rigidly controlled circumstances in a laboratory using a standardized test that's mandated by federal law. Automakers actually do their own testing and submit the results to the EPA, which reviews the data and confirms about 10 to 15 percent of the ratings itself at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory.

 

Each model is tested on what's called a dynamometer, which is like a treadmill for cars. While the engine and transmission drive the wheels, the vehicle never actually moves-just the rollers upon which the wheels are placed. A professional driver runs the vehicle through two standardized driving schedules.

 

The "city" program is designed to replicate an urban rush-hour driving experience in which the vehicle is started with the engine cold and is driven in stop-and-go traffic with frequent idling. The car or truck is driven for 11 miles and makes 23 stops over the course of 31 minutes, with an average speed of 20 mph and a top speed of 56 mph.

 

The "highway" program is created to emulate rural and interstate freeway driving with a warmed-up engine, making no stops (both of which ensure maximum fuel economy). The vehicle is driven for 10 miles over a period of 12.5 minutes with an average speed of 48 mph and a top speed of 60 mph. Both tests are performed with the vehicle's air conditioning and other accessories off.

 

Throughout the test a hose is connected to the vehicle's tailpipe and collects the engine's exhaust. It's the amount of carbon that's present in what's spewed from the exhaust system that's measured to calculate the amount of fuel burned. The EPA claims this is more accurate than using a fuel-gauge to physically measure the amount of gasoline that's being burned. Still, the final test figures are adjusted downward, by 10 percent for city driving and 22 percent in highway mileage, to help reflect the differences between what happens in a lab and out on an actual road."

 

 

Pretty ridiculous, huh? That's why there's no correlation whatsoever between EPA mileage and real-world driving, and why you really need to use it simply to compare similar cars, not as an actual mpg expectation.

[ebritt]

How can you sue Toyota for the EPA rating the MPG unrealistically? Now if owners want to sue the EPA, now that's another story.

You think toyota didn't know that was incorrect? They knew and they chose to run with it.

 

I could see if it was only a couple of mpg difference but this is outrageous!

 

Well, Toyota's Gas engines do tend to achieve their epa figures.

But they did not in this case , and were obscenely overrated. Edited December 24, 2006 by ebritt

[swenson88]

You think toyota didn't know that was incorrect? They knew and they chose to run with it.

 

I could see if it was only a couple of mpg difference but this is outrageous!

 

But they did not in this case , and were obscenely overrated.

 

That doesn't make any sense. Name one manufacturer that puts anything other than the EPA mpg ratings on their stickers and maybe you have a case. Since that doesn't happen, how is Toyota to blame for the retarded system the EPA uses? I don't like Toyota or the Prius, but this is clearly a case of the EPA f-ing up, not Toyota.

[NLPRacing]

That doesn't make any sense. Name one manufacturer that puts anything other than the EPA mpg ratings on their stickers and maybe you have a case. Since that doesn't happen, how is Toyota to blame for the retarded system the EPA uses? I don't like Toyota or the Prius, but this is clearly a case of the EPA f-ing up, not Toyota.

 

His point was that Toyota exploited the EPA system to make the Prius look good knowing it wouldn't get the EPA mileage in the "real" world. We all know that many vehicles don't get the EPA mileage, but the Prius is more off than most.

[F250]

Ya'll just don't see how simple it is do you?

 

The U.S. Government (EPA) as an "agenda" when it comes to hybrid cars. To that end the Government will give money to the manufacturers to encurage them to develop hybrid vehicles. The Government will give the people who buy those hybrid vehicles tax breaks (money) and the Government will LIE about the fuel mileage those hybrid vehicles achieve to get suckers to buy the damn things at a premium price.

 

The first wave of geeks that bought the Prius would never have admitted the cars were anything but perfection on wheels but enough regular people have now purchased Priuses expecting to actually get the mileage estimated on the sticker. Now they find themselves in an ugly little car that doesn't get anywhere near the mileage estimate and only the dealer can maintain or repair the thing...not to mention the recalls.

 

The suprising part here is that no one has attacked the stupid excuses and "outlandish explanations" the Toyota dealers have been making to Prius owners. All of the Jap lovers usually love to rant about how one of Ford's biggest problems is it's dealers, well it looks like Toyota dealers aren't as perfect as the Jap lovers claim.

Edited December 24, 2006 by F250

[Keyser Soze]

Why are Prius owners geeks? Because they wanted a vehicle that promised significantly greater efficiency than anything else available? Even if the mileage estimates failed to meet expectations it does not invalidate the buyers motivation.

 

You mock the Prius owner because they wear rose colored glasses and refuse to admit that their car has problems. How many Ford owners on this forum do the same thing? If enough buyers love their car enough to overlook the problems and remain loyal, slam dunk for the manufacturer. If Ford generated the same kind of loyalty that the imports do, I doubt you would have a problem with it.

 

In any case, the Prius is a pretty efficient car. Instead of 65 mpg they are getting 45. That's a problem I would love to have. I dislike the Prius personally and would never own one. That doesn't mean that someone else won't be perfectly satisfied with theirs. I would also refuse to own a Harley Davidson edition Ford pickup. Still doesn't stop others from lusting after it.

 

As far as dealer only service, who cares? Plenty of people buy normal cars with zero special technology and only go to the dealer for service. Why would the buyer car if they must go to the dealer for service if they planned to go there from the beginning?

 

It has been stated plenty before, but why not say it again. The quality gap between domestic and import cars has narrowed to the point that it is often undistinguishable. Perception has not. You will noot change the import buyers mind by telling him he is stupid and pointing at his Camry calling it a piece of crap. Even if you are right (you're not) he is happy with his import. The only way for Ford and GM to win this war is to make BETTER cars than the imports. The dealer network also requires improvement.

 

See, when you want to beat a competitor, you don't point at them and say, "You suck as bad as we do!" You study their strengths and weaknesses as well as your own. You address any deficiencies in your own organization and leverage your strengths to create differentiation. If you do this right, the consumer will seek you out and even pay a premium for your product.

 

It's that simple.

[ebritt]

His point was that Toyota exploited the EPA system to make the Prius look good knowing it wouldn't get the EPA mileage in the "real" world. We all know that many vehicles don't get the EPA mileage, but the Prius is more off than most.

Thank you!

 

They knew that if people had the real facts, the prius would "rot on the lot".

 

As for other companies taking advantage of EPA ratings , I'm sure it happens, but when has it been such a huge gap?? I mean this is a 25-30% difference!!