Changing minds: What Detroit can do to win back car buyers

[silvrsvt]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...UTO01/701030382

 

I think this is the biggest problem that Ford/GM/DCX face, its not that their products suck, its the perception that they do and I really wonder if they can survive long enough to change it.

[Roadrunner]

Interesting series.

[DCK]

Their new products launching may be good. But let's all be real and acknowledge all thre companies still have loads of craptacular uncompetitive models still on dealer lots not worth anyones dime. Hell, Ford is still going to be coming out with more uncompetitive product.............aka 2008 Escape.

 

Once they clear all the crap off the lots(which since the new escape hasn't even launched yet we are looking how many more years?) Then they can say it isn't the product. A couple terrible products will hurt a brand far more than a lot of good products help a brand.

 

No hope until THE BIG 3 STOP RELEASING PURE UNCOMPETITIVE CRAP.

[pcsario]

A good start would be Ford firing the guys who approved the Fusion's interior, and also decided to leave the rear end of the 500 untouched for the refresh.

Edited January 5, 2007 by pcsario

[ANTAUS]

Oh yeah, that consumer has it all going on, he really knows his products. He had to buy foreign because there just wasn't anything he liked for detroit. Well Mr.Consumer, you have a glorified Accord parked in your garage, so you fell for that one, and most comical, you avoided detriot badge, but you just bought a Chevy Equinox with a Suzuki badge. Yeah you really put one over on detroit alright... :rolleyes:

[Extreme4x4]

A good start would be Ford firing the guys who approved the Fusion's interior, and also decided to leave the rear end of the 500 untouched for the refresh.

 

Well, surmising from your posts, you think that absolutally everyone at FMC should be fired (white collar anyway), except for Mullaly.

 

The Fusions interior is actually quite nice. While it does not one up the leaders, it is at least on par. If you don't like the style, that is your problem. However, sit in a Camry, and "play" with its interior pieces (hell, you can just play with the ones that are trying to fall off)................. and you should find that they are pretty craptastic.

[1957Birdman]

It will take Detroit building quality product. By that I mean a product that has bullet proof quality for at least 100K miles. Right now the average buyer does not see that kind of quality from Motown. I had a 1993 Mercury Villager that was great for the first 75K miles. After that a lot of stuff went wrong, like the transmission, A/C compressor, exhaust manifold stud bolts, and broken crankshaft. It ended up costing me a lot more than it should have.

 

I think Ford needs to capture the youth market with high quality, low cost cars that have high-tech links like the Ford/Microsoft collaboration. If parents see their kids driving Fords that have the quality of a Boeing Airplane they will come back in the showrooms. Work of mouth is still great advertising!

Regards,

[rkisler]

It will take Detroit building quality product. By that I mean a product that has bullet proof quality for at least 100K miles. Right now the average buyer does not see that kind of quality from Motown. I had a 1993 Mercury Villager that was great for the first 75K miles. After that a lot of stuff went wrong, like the transmission, A/C compressor, exhaust manifold stud bolts, and broken crankshaft. It ended up costing me a lot more than it should have.

 

I think Ford needs to capture the youth market with high quality, low cost cars that have high-tech links like the Ford/Microsoft collaboration. If parents see their kids driving Fords that have the quality of a Boeing Airplane they will come back in the showrooms. Work of mouth is still great advertising!

Regards,

 

I assume you are aware that all of the components you mention you had troubles with on your Villager were, in fact, Nissan components?

[swenson88]

I assume you are aware that all of the components you mention you had troubles with on your Villager were, in fact, Nissan components?

 

While that may matter to people who really know things like that, the average buyer is simply going to care that the vehicle they were driving let them down and not buy that brand again. Most people have no idea where any specific component of their vehicle comes from. They only think about a component when it fails.

[bec5150]

I assume you are aware that all of the components you mention you had troubles with on your Villager were, in fact, Nissan components?

Yes, which is why Nissan's market share went in the chitter a few years back. Proves that people buy quality regardless of what brand our country makes em.

[1957Birdman]

I assume you are aware that all of the components you mention you had troubles with on your Villager were, in fact, Nissan components?

I am well aware that most of the components in question were of NIssan origin, except for the "black death" airconditioner compressor, which is a Ford item. When someone pays over $20K for a product and it has these sorts of problems they have a right to be angry when the company that sold them the car tries to blame someone else. That kind of attitude won't get people back in the showroom wanting to buy Ford cars.

 

I have been a Ford guy for years and still am at heart. It pains me to think that American car companies are not capable of cars that match Honda and Toyota. Does anyone think that if the Taurus had been at the same level, quality wise, as the Honda Accord that Ford would be in the shape that it is now? I know a lot of people who bought the Taurus because of the styling and packaging and then ended up buying a Honda the next time around because of the poor quality of the Taurus. My dad was a Ford man through and through who ended up buying a Honda, partly because his 1987 Taurus had so many problems. Electrical problems that left him sitting a number of times. These were problems that happened when the car had less than 50K miles. That kind of performance is just not acceptable in today's market.

 

I get back to what I said in my first posting. Ford needs to make desirable cars that are bullet proof for at least 100K. miles. If they start doing that the word will get around and sales and resale value will go up. It will take time, but it is worth the effort.

[Ovaltine]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...UTO01/701030382

 

I think this is the biggest problem that Ford/GM/DCX face, its not that their products suck, its the perception that they do and I really wonder if they can survive long enough to change it.

 

Funny.... I couldn't find even ONE mention of the word 'dealer' in the DetNews article.

 

In my opinion, crappy dealer experience(s) are one of the PRIMARY reasons people shun domestic vehicles.

 

I was really disappointed when the efforts by the manufacturers to create company owned stores failed due to lawsuits filed under franchise law.

 

I sure wish the rest of us out here could file lawsuits to prevent competition and protect our jobs.

 

-Ovaltine

[2005GTP]

We need to get rid of the "Its cool to hate American" concept that is so prevelent in America today. Its sad when people actually go out of their way not to buy American products, not becacuse they are worse quality, but because the status you obtain when you buy European or Japanese products.

[grbeck]

We need to get rid of the "Its cool to hate American" concept that is so prevelent in America today. Its sad when people actually go out of their way not to buy American products, not becacuse they are worse quality, but because the status you obtain when you buy European or Japanese products.

 

The problem is that the Americans earned this lack of status, and it will take years to reverse it. Images don't change overnight.

 

At one time Japanese cars were a joke, and only bought by people who couldn't afford a "real" car (i.e., an American one). European cars had great handling and were often fun to drive, but they had "character," which was a polite way of saying that they couldn't be relied upon to start every morning.

 

Unfortunately, during the 1970s, American cars got steadily worse, while the imports either improved (Japanese and high-end German cars) or were driven out of the market (French, Italian and most inexpensive British cars).

 

The Americans have improved, but they've allowed their passenger cars to languish while focusing on trucks and SUVs. There is absolutely no excuse for how Ford has fumbled the Focus since its launch in this country. If that car had kept pace with the European version, it would be Honda and Toyota making the defensive moves in this segment. That Ford has dropped the ball with this car is not the fault of buyers who prefer other brands.

 

Even if a Taurus or a Malibu were as reliable as an Accord or an Altima, who would want one (aside from Alamo and Enterprise)?

Edited January 15, 2007 by grbeck

[MKII]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...UTO01/701030382

 

I think this is the biggest problem that Ford/GM/DCX face, its not that their products suck, its the perception that they do and I really wonder if they can survive long enough to change it.

 

New target market?

[2005GTP]

The problem is that the Americans earned this lack of status, and it will take years to reverse it. Images don't change overnight.

 

At one time Japanese cars were a joke, and only bought by people who couldn't afford a "real" car (i.e., an American one). European cars had great handling and were often fun to drive, but they had "character," which was a polite way of saying that they couldn't be relied upon to start every morning.

 

Unfortunately, during the 1970s, American cars got steadily worse, while the imports either improved (Japanese and high-end German cars) or were driven out of the market (French, Italian and most inexpensive British cars).

 

The Americans have improved, but they've allowed their passenger cars to languish while focusing on trucks and SUVs. There is absolutely no excuse for how Ford has fumbled the Focus since its launch in this country. If that car had kept pace with the European version, it would be Honda and Toyota making the defensive moves in this segment. That Ford has dropped the ball with this car is not the fault of buyers who prefer other brands.

 

Even if a Taurus or a Malibu were as reliable as an Accord or an Altima, who would want one (aside from Alamo and Enterprise)?

 

 

Altima? Nissan has absolutely no reputation for quality nor is their product any good. The fact that there is so much bias in how cars are "reported" in terms of their style (subjective) as well as other things. The Accord and Camery are butt ass ugly and that alone would keep me from buying them. Not to mention, thier so called quality which is blown up in the press while that same press looks the other way when the have recalls, err I mean service bulletins makes me hate the cars even more because their quailty aint that much better for the price you pay.

[BlackHorse]

Oh yeah, that consumer has it all going on, he really knows his products. He had to buy foreign because there just wasn't anything he liked for detroit. Well Mr.Consumer, you have a glorified Accord parked in your garage, so you fell for that one, and most comical, you avoided detriot badge, but you just bought a Chevy Equinox with a Suzuki badge. Yeah you really put one over on detroit alright...

 

I have no idea how much knowledge you have about the retail world. How could I right? But one thing I do know for sure about the retail world is that when your company is having trouble moving product the absolute worst thing you can do is get mad and blame the customer. Even if it's true, it doesn't matter, you keep it to yourself because to blame the customer is to ensure they will not frequent your business, ever.

 

Second, in point of fact, many consumers do make very informed decisions when they purchase their cars and there are a variety of reasons someone might end up in a "glorfied Accord". Lets face it, if you wan't a reliable car that will hold good resale value the Accord is a good choice. That's reality.

 

Finally, I think Ford just needs to come out with some appealing product and they are having a tuff time doing that. GM seems to be fairing a little better in recent months with ideas like the Sky / Solstice, Aura, upcoming Malibu, upcoming Camaro and heck you can even go get an Impala now for about 21K if you just want a decent family sedan with respectable styling. I understand that taste is subjective and there's no accounting for it, but apparently the majority of buyers do not feel that Fords current offerings fit their tastes. From my own perspective I have to admit that aside from the Milan and it's Lincoln twin there isn't a single Ford sedan that I would consider. But then again, there isn't a single Mitsubishi of any type that I would consider. The same is true for Honda right now, I just don't like their sedans. Now the upcoming 2008 Accord I must admit is very nice and I may have to consider that one.

 

I noticed that someone posted that Nissan has never been known for quality. Absolutely not true. I can recall when the Maxima was rated as the single most reliable car on the American market. Now grant you that was back in the 1990's but still. The current Altima is getting a lot of positive reception because people like the style and it's got some catchy features that appeal to the buying public. The coupe is going to get a lot of attention, you can count on that. Perhaps Ford should consider a coupe Fusion?

[marc-o]

I think people are putting too much emphasis on just quality; yes it's important, but it's not the only reason people buy cars. The problem now is even the most unreliable cars sold nowadays are just as (if not more) reliable than the best cars 10 years ago. Differences in quality amount to increments of 0.01 problems per car (or, more commonly referred to as 1 per 100 cars).

 

Most people expect a certain basic level of quality, failing to reach that (which Detroit did in the 70's and 80's) is sure to turn off buyers.

BUT people buy cars and are loyal for other reasons too: styling, driving dynamics, image. Some people buy BMWs or Mercs despite moderate quality and high mark ups because of image, something that can take decades to create. Others buy Nissans or Hummers because they have edgey, contemporary/modern styling that stands out - as long as those cars provide acceptable transportation and stand out visually, they will strongly appeal to certain buyers. Others still buy VW or Hondas because of a perceived sporty edge (GTI or Si?), another somewhat intangible quality appreciated by some who seek a more fun ride (though not necessarily raw speed).

 

Toyota does well by appealing to the most, but it isn't the only way to be successful. Let Toyota have the boring appliance market, there are other kinds of cars people will buy, as long as quality is good (even though it's not the *best*).

[Roadrunner]

Altima? Nissan has absolutely no reputation for quality nor is their product any good. The fact that there is so much bias in how cars are "reported" in terms of their style (subjective) as well as other things. The Accord and Camery are butt ass ugly and that alone would keep me from buying them. Not to mention, thier so called quality which is blown up in the press while that same press looks the other way when the have recalls, err I mean service bulletins makes me hate the cars even more because their quailty aint that much better for the price you pay.

 

Nissan has sex appeal up the ass.

 

Wait, that sounded... homosexual.

 

I guess my point is that I would drive a 2001- Nissan based on the idea that it has sporty handling and fast acceleration. The design language already won me over. All Nissans before this lacked that imagery.

 

Then again, I see the average Nissan owner as the type to change cars more often than, say, a Ford or Toyota owner. With Toyota, you're buying an appliance. With Nissan, you're buying a "hot car."

[FordManBrad]

For people who consider a car to be just like an appliance, reliability is everything. Over the holidays, I had the opportunity to talk to a few "last time buyers" of Fords and GM vehicles. One guy has a Ranger that the 5 speed automatic went bad on - $2200 to fix it. He's done with Ford, probably buying a Toyota next time. Another guy had an Explorer with some kind of major problems with the rear brakes. Ford Stealer wanted $1000 to fix it. He's driving a new Toyota. Another guy had a full size GM FWD trans go bad at 76K. He's driving a Hyndaui now, said he can't go wrong with the warranty since every GM he's owned had the transmission fail before 100K. Another guy has a Taurus. The extended warranty is about to expire and he's afraid to keep the car. He made out pretty good with the warranty as it seems as if they've rebuilt half of the car for him, even though it only has 75K on it. He showed me the receipts, its unbelieveable how much has broken on the car.

 

As long as this kind of nonsense keeps going on, buyers are not coming back, ever.

[1957Birdman]

For people who consider a car to be just like an appliance, reliability is everything. Over the holidays, I had the opportunity to talk to a few "last time buyers" of Fords and GM vehicles. One guy has a Ranger that the 5 speed automatic went bad on - $2200 to fix it. He's done with Ford, probably buying a Toyota next time. Another guy had an Explorer with some kind of major problems with the rear brakes. Ford Stealer wanted $1000 to fix it. He's driving a new Toyota. Another guy had a full size GM FWD trans go bad at 76K. He's driving a Hyndaui now, said he can't go wrong with the warranty since every GM he's owned had the transmission fail before 100K. Another guy has a Taurus. The extended warranty is about to expire and he's afraid to keep the car. He made out pretty good with the warranty as it seems as if they've rebuilt half of the car for him, even though it only has 75K on it. He showed me the receipts, its unbelieveable how much has broken on the car.

 

As long as this kind of nonsense keeps going on, buyers are not coming back, ever.

I don't buy a car just as an applicance, but I am at a point where I want something reliable. Being under the hood all the time is not my idea of fun. Of course, with the complexity of cars today most of the work needs to be done by a service technician anyway, at a pretty expensive hourly rate. The Miata is a great example of the way cars should be made today. It has character, is fun to drive, and has bullet proof reliability. Ford should be capable of building more cars like that.

 

The goal Ford should have is to build a car that attracts the buying public and only needs routine maintenance for the first 100K miles. Anything less than that relegates Ford to an also ran position in the market place.

[NickF1011]

Does anyone else notice that 98% of these anecdotal "my ford sucks" stories have to do with products that were introduced or last significantly updated prior to 2002 or so? "My Taurus..." or "My Ranger..." or "My Crown Victoria...." or "My Escort...."

 

On the positive side, I haven't heard too many of these types of stories starting with "My Five Hundred...." or "My Fusion..."

 

Yes, I know the newer vehicles don't have as many miles on them, but in the case of a few of them like S197 Mustangs and Five Hundreds, they've been out long enough that plenty of them would be experiencing the previously ever-too-common "75,000 mile transmission failure" by now.

 

Ford needs to update their old iron, mainly the Ranger, E-Series, and Crown Victoria. Even if they aren't inherently flawed, they still LOOK old and will continue to be associated with the old Ford even if they do update the mechanicals.

[Ovaltine]

Funny.... I couldn't find even ONE mention of the word 'dealer' in the DetNews article.

 

In my opinion, crappy dealer experience(s) are one of the PRIMARY reasons people shun domestic vehicles.

 

I was really disappointed when the efforts by the manufacturers to create company owned stores failed due to lawsuits filed under franchise law.

 

I sure wish the rest of us out here could file lawsuits to prevent competition and protect our jobs.

 

-Ovaltine

 

Hey Ford Mgt:

 

See! Read the following excerpt here on BON. This is a prime example of the situation I describe above!

 

DOH!

 

-Ovaltine

 

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...?showtopic=9380

 

"Basically it was between the Ford and the Dodge. Ford lost the sale because of miserable experiences at three different dealers over the holidays. "

Edited January 17, 2007 by Ovaltine