I'm Liking the Verve

[Edstock]

the difference between the MKX & Edge shows that it's very hard to stay true to one aesthetic (red white and bold-slab sides, fender flares, 'chiseled' character lines) and support a second one (the MKX).

 

IMHO, red white and bold is Ford, Lincoln must have something different. The Lincoln aesthetic is still being defined — and the MK T is an important statement in this process.

 

[RichardJensen]

I too really like the Verve, but as I said, I have real issues with the idea that you can 'cut and paste' a chrome grille into the Mondeo snout and have a car that will appeal to Americans. It's just not the way things work, and dagnabbit, I hope that the PD people are smart enough to listen to the negative feedback that the Mondeo exterior would get from people that 'would consider buying a Ford product' (not negative as in "ooohh I hate it!!!" but negative as in, "well, it just doesn't do anything for me")

[SVT_MAN]

Fine...you want all that...here goes:

 

THIS:

 

Is much better looking than this:

 

 

And this:

 

 

Again, is much better looking than this:

 

 

My biggest frustration is that America does not get the best Fords. They reserve them for Europe and Australia.

 

 

Oh

 

 

My

 

 

Gosh ....

 

 

Have we NOT beaten this dead horse ENOUGH already? CRIKEY!

 

Some people here do not live in reality. Let's get a few things straight:

 

1) These cars that are so "superior" are built in Europe (that big place across the little pond)

 

2) In Europe, they use a type of currency called the Euro (amazing!)

 

2) Have you burried your head in the sand for the past couple of years, or do you not understand exchange rates? The dollar has declined over 30%(!!!!!) against the Euro in recent years. Do you know how much a Ford Focus or Mondeo would cost here, BEFORE import taxes?!

 

And it isn't just exchange rates. Even before them, theses models sell for more money than an American will pay for the same size car. Europe sells SMALLER cars. Get over it!

 

3) The Mondeo that everybody loves (including me, but that doesn't mean it needs to be imported here) is probably going to be at least in the high $30 thousand range. The Titanium model is $46,950! $46,950 for a car that size. People don't pay that much for some premium luxury vehicles here!

 

And the Focus? The Focus, you say?!

 

The Focus ST which you all love so much (and I do too, but I don't think it should be imported!) would START at over $30,000! $30,000!!!!!!!!!!!! How many Americans would pay $30,000 for a FOCUS hatchback? Judging by the Volvo C30's sales, practically NONE.

 

You all ignore how well the Fusion and Focus are doing because you are blinded by some European sophistication which Europe has, but their customers also PAY for. In Europe, the Ford brand is a higher echelon brand than it is here. That's just how it is. Ford can fix that, but it's going to take TIME.

 

 

For the last time, read the above and get it straight in your heads. FNA is not FOE. Ford is working on leveraging their global divisions, but even then we aren't going to see Euro spec cars driving around with Ford badges. Importing a car isn't as simple as stowing it on a boat and shipping it over here. Nobody but nobody will pay $30,000 for a Focus. Nobody but nobody will pay over $40,000 for a Ford Mondeo. The end.

 

That being said, I love Ford of Europe and Australia. They build vehicles that I would actually want to spend money on. Not this once, twice, three time recycled crap they sell here.

 

Easy solution. Get on a plane. Fly to Europe. Stay there.

Edited January 16, 2008 by SVT_MAN

[RichardJensen]

IMHO, red white and bold is Ford, Lincoln must have something different. The Lincoln aesthetic is still being defined — and the MK T is an important statement in this process.

 

And fortunately, Ford ain't gonna be doing any more MKX/Edge vehicle combos.

[NLPRacing]

See, quotes like this make me nervous.

 

First of all, aside from the VW Beetle, no mass market European car has ever been what could even euphemistically be called a success here. Only luxury cars, which is why Smith's assertion that designs cross from east to west unsettles me.

 

Furthermore, the assertion that North Americans are ready to 'embrace' more 'sophisticated' international designs is condescending, wrong-headed, and not borne out by real world experience.

 

Americans are the most catered to consumers the universe has ever seen. It is not a shock that the vehicles that have been most successful in the US have been vehicles that -cater- to the US, it is, in fact, the logical outcome. From the Camry (which is a total flop in Europe) to the US specific Accord--only in C and B cars (and luxury cars) have the American public shown any inclination to buy what sells in other countries.

 

Therefore, the assertion that it'll just take a different grille insert to palliate US consumers is infuriatingly patronizing and dangerously wrong-headed.

 

I agree with you to an extent. If the design is truly good, then maybe all it will take is a "different grille". For example, the Euro spec Accord & US spec Accord may be completely different, but they did look similar. Certain vehicles will have to be unique to their market (Galaxy, Transit, Flex, F-Series, etc.), but others should be able to be very similar (Mondeo/Fusion, Focus, Verve/Fiesta, etc.).

[RichardJensen]

I agree with you to an extent. If the design is truly good, then maybe all it will take is a "different grille". For example, the Euro spec Accord & US spec Accord may be completely different, but they did look similar. Certain vehicles will have to be unique to their market (Galaxy, Transit, Flex, F-Series, etc.), but others should be able to be very similar (Mondeo/Fusion, Focus, Verve/Fiesta, etc.).

Then you've got the situation that PC was complaining about: design all over the map.

 

You've got, on one hand the Flex, and on the other hand, the Mondeo. How do you make them work together?

 

Heck, the Verve will do good, but I wonder how much spillover it will even have on the rest of Ford's lineup....

 

It is exceptionally difficult to do what Ford's trying to do here, and it will not get easier as time goes by.

 

The balkanization of the car market has made it clear that people do -not- want one-size-fits-all design, therefore the odd assertion that we can just borrow whatever from Europe whenever we want and not have it affect Ford's NA brand is exceptionally dangerous. Inconsistency is one of the PRIMARY reasons why Ford is in the situation it's in.

 

They have proven unable to duplicate successes (outside of trucks) and they are taking a HUGE risk with this 'strategy'.

[Edstock]

B and C-size world collaboration makes sense, and vehicles can be quite similar. However, the C-D Mondeo is Euro-specific in that a 6-cylinder engine is not available. For the price a Mondeo would sell for in NA, a 6-cylinder is a prerequisite, as Honda found with their Accord, which remained a 4-cylinder until lost sales to V-6 competition hurt too much.

 

But Ford EU may not need a vehicle with V-6 power for the Mondeo-size vehicle, unless they decide to take the Mondeo into senior 3-series territory. You might see a hi-power turbo 4-cylinder Mondeo, but with the CO2 greenie problem in Europe, offering a CO2 gobbling 300hp 3-series competitor may not make sense, because owning that type of vehicle will become so expensive that people will be going for the BMW.

 

If anything should be imported from the EU, it should be something that's new to the game in NA. That should be the Transit Connect. Why? Because you can get a nice foreign-designed car anywhere, but the Transit Connect's EU competition don't have NA dealers. So, life and marketing's a gamble, but for the limited bucks available, don't import another sedan.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Edstock

[P71_CrownVic]

No, this is funny:

Yes...but not "damn" funny. :P

 

Actually it is damn funny. Is that a Ford press release photo? It must be, the station wagon isn't out yet.

[RichardJensen]

Is that a Ford press release photo?

No. It's Ford's first mockup. They were going to take it to the NAIAS in 2006, but Mark Fields found some money in the cushions of his private jet, and they built the Fairlane concept instead.

[P71_CrownVic]

The Focus ST which you all love so much (and I do too, but I don't think it should be imported!) would START at over $30,000! $30,000!!!!!!!!!!!! How many Americans would pay $30,000 for a FOCUS hatchback? Judging by the Volvo C30's sales, practically NONE.

 

Dude, the Euro Focus ST is sold in MEXICO (with a 6-speed and 2.5 I-5) for the equivalent of $25,517.55...and that's the number I got from Ford's web site. So don't give me this, "it is going to cost 30K" crap.

[RichardJensen]

So for slightly less than the cost of a Mustang GT, you can get a Focus ST. Maybe that's why they don't sell them here.

[P71_CrownVic]

So for slightly less than the cost of a Mustang GT, you can get a Focus ST. Maybe that's why they don't sell them here.

And one only has to look at how cheap the Mustang is to figure out why the cost is low. With the Focus, you get some level of quality, something clearly absent from the Mustang.

[RichardJensen]

With the Focus, you get some level of quality, something clearly absent from the Mustang.

You also get a much smaller car, and one with less than 300hp, and FWD only. Remember, we're talking about the ST, not the RS.

[LincolnFan]

And one only has to look at how cheap the Mustang is to figure out why the cost is low. With the Focus, you get some level of quality, something clearly absent from the Mustang.

 

Ok let me get this straight, you are telling me you will gladly pay for a 35K FWD Focus with a 250HP I5 and won't save 5K and buy a RWD Mustang V8 GT?

[Deanh]

Ok let me get this straight, you are telling me you will gladly pay for a 35K FWD Focus with a 250HP I5 and won't save 5K and buy a RWD Mustang V8 GT?

In vegas that is referred to calling someones bluff.....

[pcsario]

So for slightly less than the cost of a Mustang GT, you can get a Focus ST. Maybe that's why they don't sell them here.

 

You need to take ~20% off of Mexican prices since they include taxes. YOU ALREADY KNEW THAT.

 

It costs less than the GTI, which last time I checked, is a respected, desirable entry.

 

Ditto for the C1 Focus, about on par or cheaper than the Ford Sebring.

 

Then again who cares about sales. This is Ford NA after all.

[timmm55]

And one only has to look at how cheap the Mustang is to figure out why the cost is low. With the Focus, you get some level of quality, something clearly absent from the Mustang.

 

I've gone on record saying I don't like the door panel plastic, but the interior isn't cheap and the level of quality is quite good. It is a modern day muscle car....somewhat spartan but very functional, look at the interior of a 68 Road Runner if you want to see cheap! LOL

[pcsario]

So Mazda is selling their global cars at a HUGE loss in the US, since they're similarly "expensive" in Europe?

 

And the average european is indeed a billionare in USD because a calculator told you so?

 

I guess the Verve will cost 25k then by the same logic.

 

:rolleyes:

Edited January 16, 2008 by pcsario

[Deanh]

So basically you're saying Mazda is selling their global cars at a HUGE loss in the US, since they're similarly "expensive" in Europe? I'm guessing the Verve will cost 25k?

 

And the average european is indeed a billionare because a calculator told you so?

will be interesting to say the least, but smaller more Luxurious cars are the norm in Euro countries, they want small cars due to gas prices and taxes etc so they LUX em out more-so than here , thus they hit some pretty high retail prices that would raise eyebrows here....

[MarkFive]

It costs less than the GTI, which last time I checked, is a respected, desirable entry.

 

I hardly ever see GTI's on the street. Everyone talks about how great they are (which I don't doubt), but I don't see very many. They look nice, the do well in reviews but I don't see many at all.

 

Could the same be true about the European Focus? Once you get out of an established price point (one the public is expecting), do you not run the risk of alienating the cars target market and significantly reduce the cars sales volume?

 

How many are they selling in Mexico - does anyone know?

 

Look at what happened to the Merkur cars that were imported between '85 and '89. They were nice cars, did well in reviews with their performance AND the interiors were a step above what Ford was producing at that moment.

 

But they didn't sell because right next to it was the Sable which was cheaper.

[pcsario]

The GTI starts at ~22k. The Focus ST is cheaper than that and already comes with everything but leather seats. (xenons, recaros, rain sensing wipers, moonroof, etc). A bare bones Focus ST could be had for 19k.

 

A base GT starts at what? 26k? They don't overlap.

 

People who want a Focus ST won't buy a Mustang, and viceversa. Kinda like the Edge and Escape.

[Deanh]

I hardly ever see GTI's on the street. Everyone talks about how great they are (which I don't doubt), but I don't see very many. They look nice, the do well in reviews but I don't see many at all.

 

Could the same be true about the European Focus? Once you get out of an established price point (one the public is expecting), do you not run the risk of alienating the cars target market and significantly reduce the cars sales volume?

 

How many are they selling in Mexico - does anyone know?

 

Look at what happened to the Merkur cars that were imported between '85 and '89. They were nice cars, did well in reviews with their performance AND the interiors were a step above what Ford was producing at that moment.

 

But they didn't sell because right next to it was the Sable which was cheaper.

for some reasons VW's HERE, have a notorious record for lack of dependability...odd because in Europe they seem to have a good rap.....one of the BIG things here in the states is SIZE is of prime concern to the american buyer, and the bigger a car is the more they equate it to value for money......thus 30 odd K small cars are few and far between.....

[MarkFive]

one of the BIG things here in the states is SIZE is of prime concern to the american buyer, and the bigger a car is the more they equate it to value for money......thus 30 odd K small cars are few and far between.....

 

This is a good point. Why buy the new European Focus when you can now buy a Fusion for the same price (I get more for the same price).

 

Regarding price point, Hyundai's previous generation Accent sold like crazy (at least where I live). It wasn't the best thing in its class, but it was cheap and people lined up to buy them. They came out with a new Hyundai Accent, light years ahead of the previous generation and raised the price by $3000 (completely worth it). The result? Sales have tanked because the Accent was no longer that inexpensive. No one cared that the replacement car was better.

 

If Ford were to bring the Focus from Europe over, they would have to change the name because its price point would no longer be near the current model.

Edited January 16, 2008 by MarkFive

[pcsario]

The Mustang GT and the Focus ST don't overlap. At all.

 

To get you an clearer picture, the Focus ST costs about the same as the bare bones V6 Stang, and you get a loaded ST.

 

Richard might as well argue Ford should kill the V6 Stang "because people would just go for the GT anyway" :rolleyes:

Edited January 16, 2008 by pcsario

[Deanh]

This is a good point. Why buy a Focus when you can now buy a Fusion for the same price (I get more for the same price).

 

Regarding price point, Hyundai's previous generation Accent sold like crazy (at least where I live). It wasn't the best thing in its class, but it was cheap and people lined up to buy them. They came out with a new Hyundai Accent, light years ahead of the previous generation and raised the price by $3000 (completely worth it). The result? Sales have tanked because the Accent was no longer that inexpensive. No one cared that the replacement car was better.

 

If Ford were to bring the Focus from Europe over, they would have to change the name because its price point would no longer be near the current model.

now i'll post a little conspiracy theory and expect some counter posts. In the 20 years i have been selling fords i have noticed a constant trend. As pricing gets bumped ( EVERY year ) new models are brought out that fill the surpassed price points. Here we go......when the Escape was introduced it came in at the price of an Explorer 5 years prior, The Explorer became the Expedition price, the Expedition the Excursion price......my guess is the Verve will come in at earlier focus prices, the Focus will become Fusion price, the Fusion Taurus priced, the taurus will also go up and become ( Interceptor? ), it seems to be the norm....the price bumps get justified by more content ( SOMETIMES ) Personally i don't know how some can afford cars/ trucks any more...hell Superdutys are close to 55k!!!!!!

Edited January 16, 2008 by Deanh