I'm Liking the Verve

[elkarlo]

So you belong in the group that thinks Mazda is selling their global cars at a huge loss in the US?

 

I guess it's true, Ford should cancel the Verve. It would cost almost 30k

 

 

No, the Yen is pretty low too. Mazda will be fine exchange wise...as will Toyota/Honda/Nissan.

[silvrsvt]

To prove how utterly wrong people are here we can just look at the prices for Volvo's C30, and Volvo's sell at a higher price than Ford's do, yet the C30 starts at only 22K, and it's nothing but a re-styled Focus ST with a Volvo badge, so if Volvo can sell their version of the Focus ST for only 22K here in the states, the Ford version would be even cheaper, and base models of the Focus would be abut the same as the American version.

 

Try again, 22700 for a stripped out model, I'd be that the avg transaction price is much higher then that. Plus nearly anything you put on a C30 is an option and they start geting pretty costly after a couple options.

 

Lets also not forget the C30 hasn't been excactly burning up the sales charts either.

[ironhorse]

People who have never been in the retail side of the car business will never understand why Ford cannot sell a $22,000 Focus,even if its a ten times better car than the imports in it's class.

Edited January 17, 2008 by ironhorse

[pcsario]

Try again, 22700 for a stripped out model, I'd be that the avg transaction price is much higher then that. Plus nearly anything you put on a C30 is an option and they start geting pretty costly after a couple options.

 

Lets also not forget the C30 hasn't been excactly burning up the sales charts either.

 

Yeah, lets completely ignore his point. The C30 STARTS where the Focus ST ends, it doesn't matter if the C30 would top out at 43k fully loaded yadda yadda. A fully loaded Focus ST --recaros, xenons, rain sensing wipers, etc-- already costs less than the most basic C30 (as is already the case in pretty much every country where both are sold). Keep ignoring the fact that's the case when compared against a manual V6 Stang.

 

And you're a hypocrite too, ever see silvrsvt posting stuff like:

"Lets also not forget the Fusion hasn't been exactly burning up the sales charts either"?

 

I haven't either. It's always "bububu new nameplate", "bububu lets see the glass half full", etc.

 

Maybe Ford should cancel the Fusion too, it's selling 1/3 less units than Ford really expected internally, so by the same logic, "clearly, Americans don't want it".

Edited January 17, 2008 by pcsario

[silvrsvt]

Yeah, lets completely ignore his point. The C30 slots ABOVE the Focus ST, it doesn't matter if the C30 would top out at 43k fully loaded yadda yadda. A fully loaded Focus ST (recaros, xenons, rain sensing wipers, etc) would be much cheaper than the most basic C30 (as is already the case in pretty much every country where both are sold). Keep ignoring the fact that's the case when compared against a manual V6 Stang.

 

And you're a hypocrite too, ever see silvrsvt posting stuff like:

"Lets also not forget the Fusion hasn't been exactly burning up the sales charts either"?

 

I haven't either. It's always "bububu new nameplate", "bububu I see the glass half full", etc.

 

Maybe Ford should cancel the Fusion too, it's selling 1/3 less units than Ford expected, so by the same logic, "clearly, Americans don't want the Fusion".

 

Two can play at this game...lets ignore the fact that using US pricing an nicely loaded V6 Mustang goes for 25-27K, which would be the ball park your talking about for a Fully European Focus ST to be sold in USA (Going by how much a GTI goes for in this country also) and all those features that are listed aren't even found on other Ford NA products at this point in time.

 

As for the C30, don't muddy up the waters here...it wasn't expected to set the sales charts on fire either in US, even by Volvo, don't misconstrue what I'm saying...which you conveniently glossed over with your Mexican vs US pricing for the GTI and ST.

 

The current ST will have be stripped down a bit to sell it at the 25K and under price point.

[Blueblood]

Try again, 22700 for a stripped out model, I'd be that the avg transaction price is much higher then that. Plus nearly anything you put on a C30 is an option and they start geting pretty costly after a couple options.

 

Lets also not forget the C30 hasn't been excactly burning up the sales charts either.

 

 

That must be that new fuzzy math when $22,700 doesn't fall under 22k...

 

But but but, all I see is excuses.. Volvo's are more expensive than Ford's too, and the ST is such an amazing little car, if they were sold here and people knew about them they'd sell.

 

NO Volvo's burn up the sales charts anyways, they don't even advertise the thing..

[Blueblood]

People who have never been in the retail side of the car business will never understand why Ford cannot sell a $22,000 Focus,even if its a ten times better car than the imports in it's class.

 

And that kind of fatalistic thinking ensures that Ford will always be thought of as shit, you can't be better without actually trying first, if you put in the effort, eventually people will become aware. Build it and they will come..

 

"Ford sucks so why try" doesn't seem like a good business plan..

[pcsario]

People who have never been in the retail side of the car business will never understand why Ford cannot sell a $22,000 Focus,even if its a ten times better car than the imports in it's class.

 

And they're having a hard time selling Fusions at 17k too, what's your point? Lower the bar further, and go from targeting Kia, to Chery?

 

Of course mediocre efforts will get you mediocre results.

 

Everyone here laughed at the price of the new Malibu, but now it's exceeding expectations, and GM is having a hard time meeting demand for it.

Edited January 17, 2008 by pcsario

[Sixt9coug]

jesus fucking christ! enough about the goddamn Euro Focus already!

[J-150]

jesus fucking christ! enough about the goddamn Euro Focus already!

 

 

exactly!

 

 

to get back to the original topic.

 

 

in the B car segment we have nasty, cheap looking cars. the Verve brings a new game to the table.

[silvrsvt]

Everyone here laughed at the price of the new Malibu, but now it's exceeding expectations, and GM is having a hard time meeting demand for it.

 

The car hasn't been on the market for 6 months yet and they are still ramping up production...I dont think many people will wait around when they have perfectly fine Accords/Fusions/Camry/etc on lots waiting for them...

 

Revisit this in 6-12 months to see what the truth is.

[Blueblood]

Two can play at this game...lets ignore the fact that using US pricing an nicely loaded V6 Mustang goes for 25-27K, which would be the ball park your talking about for a Fully European Focus ST to be sold in USA (Going by how much a GTI goes for in this country also) and all those features that are listed aren't even found on other Ford NA products at this point in time.

 

As for the C30, don't muddy up the waters here...it wasn't expected to set the sales charts on fire either in US, even by Volvo, don't misconstrue what I'm saying...which you conveniently glossed over with your Mexican vs US pricing for the GTI and ST.

 

The current ST will have be stripped down a bit to sell it at the 25K and under price point.

 

Why do people keep comparing it to the Mustang anyways? There's a lot of people out there who would camp out at Ford dealers waiting to be the first to get their hands on a ST, lots of people are happy with a great all around little car that is packed full of features as is the ST. Plus a Focus ST destroys a V6 Mustang performance and looks wise. Why can't Ford have more than one affordable performance car? Not everyone wants a Mustang!

[silvrsvt]

Why do people keep comparing it to the Mustang anyways? There's a lot of people out there who would camp out at Ford dealers waiting to be the first to get their hands on a ST, lots of people are happy with a great all around little car that is packed full of features as is the ST. Plus a Focus ST destroys a V6 Mustang performance and looks wise. Why can't Ford have more than one affordable performance car? Not everyone wants a Mustang!

 

While I agree to this to a point, the last time Ford did this, where did it wind up at? The SVT Focus was never successful sales-wise...

 

The SRT4 was somewhat successful, but I wouldn't call putting in a powerful engine into a crappy car a good template for success.

 

The biggest problem is that people who would by this car are a bunch of Import lovers, so they wouldn't think to buy a Ford like this in the first place.

 

Dont' confuse the megaphone effect of a couple people on different message boards as the all knowing/end all of all things automotive.....they've been proven wrong many times by the general car buying public....

[Deanh]

is it just me or do a majority of threads seem to convolute into either Panther or the Euro focus.......a quick reminder...the Verve is an indicator of things to come, even Focus wise, the current 08 Focus is a stop gap...and a pretty darn ugly one too....

Edited January 17, 2008 by Deanh

[pcsario]

Two can play at this game...lets ignore the fact that using US pricing an nicely loaded V6 Mustang goes for 25-27K, which would be the ball park your talking about for a Fully European Focus ST to be sold in USA (Going by how much a GTI goes for in this country also) and all those features that are listed aren't even found on other Ford NA products at this point in time.

 

Who's talking about a LOADED V6 Mustang? The Focus ST isn't priced "toe to toe" with it, the Stang STARTS where the Focus ST ends.

 

Similarly, a LOADED ST costs LESS than the BASE GTI, which is ALSO sold in Mexico, and ALSO costs more... y'know, just like it does EVERYWHERE ELSE.

 

If you keep thinking it overlaps with the GT, again, you might be one of those who think Mazda sells their global cars at a huge loss in NA, and that Ford will lose 15k+ on each Verve sold in the US.

[silvrsvt]

is it just me or do a majority of threads seem to convolute into either Panther or the Euro focus.

 

Someone needs to come up with madlibs for this message board....

[silvrsvt]

If you keep thinking it overlaps with the GT, again, you might be one of those who think Mazda sells their global cars at a huge loss in NA, and that Ford will lose 15k+ on each Verve sold in the US.

 

No not at all, just that selling an ST for more then 25K wouldn't fly over in the States, but at the same time would Ford make any money (the 25K and under price) on C1 ST sold here in the states? Nope Can they do that with the C2 in a couple years? Yea most likely...

Edited January 17, 2008 by silvrsvt

[pcsario]

selling an ST for more then 25K wouldn't fly over in the States

 

The Focus ST isn't priced "toe to toe" with (the V6 Stang)

 

A well equipped ST costs LESS than the BASE GTI

 

So what was so hard to understand about that?

 

Canada, the US and Mexico are part of NA. They call it NAFTA for a reason. Mexican prices are pretty much in line with those in the US once you take taxes out of them. This applies not only to Ford, but VW, Honda, etc. It's not a coincidence. Once taxes are taken out of the price, the base GTI costs basically the same as it does in the US.

Edited January 17, 2008 by pcsario

[Deanh]

So what was so hard to understand about that?

 

Canada, the US and Mexico are part of NA. They call it NAFTA for a reason. You can't just say "I'm talking about US prices" since both are part of the same region. Mexican prices are pretty much in line with those in the US once you take taxes out of them. This applies not only to Ford, but VW, Honda, etc.

 

Once taxes are taken out of the price, the base GTI costs basically the same in USD than it does in MXP, it's just that --by law-- you have to include taxes in the retail price. The ST costs less than the base GTI. That's a loaded ST btw.

actually an interesting fact....we must have exported 6 or 7 mustang GT's to customers last year, each to a country where the beloved ST is sold.....so, with that i'm thinking we will always say "what we can't have" is always superior..or at least more desirable....

[jpd80]

Two can play at this game...lets ignore the fact that using US pricing an nicely loaded V6 Mustang goes for 25-27K, which would be the ball park your talking about for a Fully European Focus ST to be sold in USA (Going by how much a GTI goes for in this country also) and all those features that are listed aren't even found on other Ford NA products at this point in time.

 

As for the C30, don't muddy up the waters here...it wasn't expected to set the sales charts on fire either in US, even by Volvo, don't misconstrue what I'm saying...which you conveniently glossed over with your Mexican vs US pricing for the GTI and ST.

 

The current ST will have be stripped down a bit to sell it at the 25K and under price point.

In all likelyhood, a Focus ST would sell in the US for about the same price as a Mazdaspeed 3

or just under $23,000. That's about $4,000 less than a Mustang GT.

[grbeck]

for some reasons VW's HERE, have a notorious record for lack of dependability...odd because in Europe they seem to have a good rap.....one of the BIG things here in the states is SIZE is of prime concern to the american buyer, and the bigger a car is the more they equate it to value for money......thus 30 odd K small cars are few and far between.....

 

The difference is that Europeans don't depend on their cars like Americans do...if the car breaks down, or is at the shop for repairs, there is a mass transit system nearby, because more Europeans live in urban areas than Americans do. Plus, a fair number of Europeans receive their cars as part of their benefits package at work (to get around high income taxes), which means that they are not buying the vehicle themselves, and don't have to worry about trading it in when it has racked up the miles. That is their employer's problem.

 

Hence, there is less emphasis on reliability.

 

Also remember that in Europe VW is competing against Renault, Fiat and Citroen, which make some interesting cars, but are still not noted for reliability or great assembly quality.

 

In the states, Toyota has succeeded by making modern, front-wheel-drive, unitized versions of what Oldsmobile and Buick made in the 1960s - comfortable, reliable, nicely trimmed and well-built cars for middle America (although without the great Bill Mitchell style that GM had in the 1960s).

 

Given the futility of trying to "out Toyota" the master, as Ford and GM have been trying to do since the mid-1990s, perhaps there is a place for European-influenced Fords, PROVIDED that they have the reliability, effective air conditioning and smooth automatic transmissions that Americans expect. Others may disagree, but a Ford that looks like the Mondeo and offers a more "European" combination of ride and handling than a Camry does would certainly turn my head, and make me forget about the Camry...

 

A smart competitor looks for the opposition's weakness...in Toyota's case, that is in the style and driving-excitement departments. Ford needs to exploit those weaknesses, not meet Toyota head-on, because the second approach will only work if people are tired of their Toyotas, and, from what I've seen, that is not happening, the fondest hopes of fellow posters to the contrary...

Edited January 17, 2008 by grbeck

[jpd80]

Just looked up the vitals on a Fiesta and saw the wheelbase was arond 98".

Does that mean the Verve is longer or is that meerly because of the body over hangs.

I mean, the sedan really looks nice with those proportions and belies its small size.

[pcsario]

Just looked up the vitals on a Fiesta and saw the wheelbase was arond 98".

Does that mean the Verve is longer or is that meerly because of the body over hangs.

I mean, the sedan really looks nice with those proportions and belies its small size.

 

It basically has the same dimensions as the Aveo, according to some comparo at GMI.

 

We've only seen it in dark colors, which hide the visual mass somewhat.

 

I wonder how it'll look in white with tiny production wheels.

[Deanh]

It basically has the same dimensions as the Aveo, according to some comparo at GMI.

 

We've only seen it in dark colors, which hide the visual mass somewhat.

 

I wonder how it'll look in white with tiny production wheels.

plain.......like the 08 Focus....wheels make a huge difference on that "car?????" as well, I don't dry heave anymore...

[Anthony]

Count me in for liking the Verve. My wife saw one in the paper and thought it was really nice too. I will agree it will look much different in person (ie. smaller) because my wife thought it was the same size as an Accord. After I told her it was more along the lines of a Scion, she still liked it (and she HATES small cars).