End of the no compete- Big Trucks

[7Mary3]

What are you talking about, International has had their own class 8 diesels for years I got my CDL 11 years ago and the first company I worked for ROEHL Transport out of Wisconsin was running Freight shakers and International's with Pro-Sleepers. They all were equipped with Internation engines, and Spicer drivelines. I hated driving them, because they were under powered and had ceramic clutches. There was no slipping at all either your clutch was engaged or it was not, they are not smooth shifting at all. International, Mack, and Volvo all have their own motors, and the only one out of the three that is worth it's salt is the Mack. The only down side to the Mack is that the motor doesn't hold it's RPM's and you have to rev it high to catch the next gear, But it has nuts like a CAT! I mean it will run like a raped ape!

 

Better check under the hood again! The largest diesel Intyernational built themmselves in recent (past 30 years) has been the DT-530, a larger version of the DT-466 medium duty engine. The DT-530 tops out at about 330 h.p., so it isn't what I would consider a true class 8 diesel. Also, I have never heard of any Freightliner having an International engine. Going way back, International did build a big V-8 diesel called the V-800. It was available in Transtars up until 1979 or so. Not a very reliable engine, it was only around a few years.

[P71_CrownVic]

The other International medium duty diesels, the DT-466 and DT-530, are only used in International trucks. I was told some time ago that Ford wanted these engines to be available in the 650 and 750, but International dealers had a problem with that idea, as these engines are highly regarded in the industry.

Edited February 7, 2008 by P71_CrownVic

[silvrsvt]

how about the P-51 in 117 days!

 

 

While the P-51 being "built" in 117 days or so might sound impressive, the head designer of the airplane was already doing work on it prior to North American's Offer to the British Goverment. He was also involved in the design of the Bf109 in the 1930's before he left Germany.

 

Both aircraft look very similar to one another, to the point that white stripes where added to the wings to help Allied Pilots id the planes.

 

Plus the Mustang didnt really come into its own till the British stuck a Merlin on it.

[Edstock]

While the P-51 being "built" in 117 days or so might sound impressive, the head designer of the airplane was already doing work on it prior to North American's Offer to the British Goverment. He was also involved in the design of the Bf109 in the 1930's before he left Germany.

 

Who was that? It wasn't Edgar Schmued or James "Dutch" Kindelberger.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Schmued

 

"An urban legend has grown up about Edgar Schmued, possibly related to his German origins, claiming he had once worked for Willy Messerschmitt and that the Mustang was heavily influenced by the Bf 109. Just as familiar is the notion that the abortive Curtiss XP-46 was the basis of the P-51 design."

 

 

Both aircraft look very similar to one another, to the point that white stripes where added to the wings to help Allied Pilots id the planes.

 

Plus the Mustang didnt really come into its own till the British stuck a Merlin on it.

 

They did look similar, but Schmued and Kindelberger's's design had a NACA-developed wing-section that gave it the range, plus a very clever exhaust ducting system that added a small but significant amount of thrust.

[Bob Rosadini]

In order for Ford to resume 650/750 production after 'Blue Diamond' is finished may require Ford to design a whole new truck. The current 650/750 is not much more than a Ford cab and vendor supplied engine on an International 4400 chassis.

 

Well I have to disagree with you big time here. Ford built this truck from 2000 to 2003 in their plant in Cautillan Mexico. So what's the big deal? Did they throw the prints away? And as others have pointed out, its not exactly rocket science. How much did it cost to engineer the Ford GT-40- excuse me Ford GT? A 1000 "halo" car project!

 

And as for your comment on Hino not being a new effort as they are big world wide, I don't beleive they have ever built a conventional such as they are building in this country. And more importantly, my point is, Hino (Toyota) has the nerve to jump into this market from scratch. I don't care how many trucks they sell in the rest of the world, they think there is a good business case to go after this market in this country- with no customer base and no dealer base. The point is Ford is the commercial truck leader in class 4-7. They should walk away from this? More defeatist bullshit!

[7Mary3]

The 2000-2003 650 and 750 were not much more than Super Duty cabs on 1980-1999 medium duty F truck chassis. If Ford were to 'dust off the prints' of those models, don't you think that the resulting truck would put Ford at a great disadvantage to all the other mediums on the market today? Granted there isn't too much to a medium duty chassis, but a quick trip in any late model 4400/Topkick/FL/Hino ect. proves that medium duty truck technology has come a long way since 1980. Also, the medium duty market has moved away from 'pickup truck' cabs. All the new models (save for Ford) have great visibility and ergonomics. Of course, Ford could do something similar to what GM did by using some full size van parts in a new cab. But then, a new cab, a new chassis, and integrating all the new emissions equipment would equal a sizeable investment, and would be needed to be competitive in the market. I would like to see Ford back in the game, but I think Ford is just not in the position to do so. Unfortunately, if they leave the market, I peg their chances of re-entering it at just about zero. Ford's strength in class 4-7 is really just 4-5. Ford knows this, and will no doubt stay in that end of the commercial market. I know a man who runs one of the largest municipal/construction truck upfitters on the west coast. I will probably talk to him tomorrow or early next week, and I will see what he knows about the situation with the F-650/750. If 'Blue Diamond' is coming to an end next year, Ford would have to have the replacement in the works at present.

Edited February 8, 2008 by 7Mary3

[Furious1Auto]

Better check under the hood again! The largest diesel Intyernational built themmselves in recent (past 30 years) has been the DT-530, a larger version of the DT-466 medium duty engine. The DT-530 tops out at about 330 h.p., so it isn't what I would consider a true class 8 diesel. Also, I have never heard of any Freightliner having an International engine. Going way back, International did build a big V-8 diesel called the V-800. It was available in Transtars up until 1979 or so. Not a very reliable engine, it was only around a few years.

No they ran freightliners and International's. I drove an International for them and your right the International motors are exclusive to their trucks, and the same is true for the Volvo, and Mack motors.

[Hemiman]

While the P-51 being "built" in 117 days or so might sound impressive, the head designer of the airplane was already doing work on it prior to North American's Offer to the British Goverment. He was also involved in the design of the Bf109 in the 1930's before he left Germany.

 

Both aircraft look very similar to one another, to the point that white stripes where added to the wings to help Allied Pilots id the planes.

 

Plus the Mustang didnt really come into its own till the British stuck a Merlin on it.

 

 

Black and white stripes were added to the wings and fuselage of ALL allied planes just prior to the D-Day invasion. Not to aid allied pilots in friend/foe ID, but to help the inexperienced AA crews in IDing aircraft.

 

Additionally, the P-38 was the only fighter assigned to close support of the beach, agian due to fears that allied aircraft would be shot at by allied ground AA crews. The P-38 was instantly recognizable due to it's unique twin boom design.

[Hemiman]

plus a very clever exhaust ducting system that added a small but significant amount of thrust.

 

 

That was another NACA design. If you look at the stacks on a Merlin P-51, they taper down from the port to the outlet. This was contrary to prvious designs which flared at the outlet. While this added some back pressure, it maximized thrust. Up to 800lbs of thrust!

 

The P-51 also featured clever exhaust ducting for the radiator, and this also produced posative thrust.

[RaZor]

Personally, I would imagine that there are already some of the hvy truck manufacturers that are already working on the next generation of powering hvy trucks - - hyper electric power. Multiple electric motors ( one for each driven wheel) with a small diesel engine powering a generator to supply electricity to the elec motors. Is this not the setup that many super hvy transporters (like ships) use?

 

It seems to me that many of you guys are still thinking that things are not going to rapidly change in the next decade and beyond.

 

If Ford were going to get back into manufacturing hvy trucks, I would suggest that they think about the next generation and bone up on that, but not spend too much resources on it now, until they get all of their car/light trucks ducks in order (including the Transit line). However, put together a team to begin (if they already haven't) assembling proficiency in the next generation of hvy trucks with electric power.

 

Think about it. Even if an initial outlay would be more for a hyper electric hvy tractor, the greatly reduced cost of operating and maintenance of a tractor utilizing multiple elec motors with a small diesel/generator supplying the juice could determine whether on not a truck operator makes money (in the not too distant future).

 

Of course, if they ever find the right place to tap into that alleged 22 trillion barrels of oil under the Rockies, well, then, that may push the necessity for such a beast back some. But even then, the company that produces the first electric line of hvy trucks (assuming, of course, reliability) will clean up as trucking firms will beat down the door. Afterall, the US already has the highest cost of distribution (of products). Perfecting a method of drastically cutting those costs could have dramatic results for the innovator.

[Hemiman]

Personally, I would imagine that there are already some of the hvy truck manufacturers that are already working on the next generation of powering hvy trucks - - hyper electric power. Multiple electric motors ( one for each driven wheel) with a small diesel engine powering a generator to supply electricity to the elec motors. Is this not the setup that many super hvy transporters (like ships) use?

 

It seems to me that many of you guys are still thinking that things are not going to rapidly change in the next decade and beyond.

 

If Ford were going to get back into manufacturing hvy trucks, I would suggest that they think about the next generation and bone up on that, but not spend too much resources on it now, until they get all of their car/light trucks ducks in order (including the Transit line). However, put together a team to begin (if they already haven't) assembling proficiency in the next generation of hvy trucks with electric power.

 

Think about it. Even if an initial outlay would be more for a hyper electric hvy tractor, the greatly reduced cost of operating and maintenance of a tractor utilizing multiple elec motors with a small diesel/generator supplying the juice could determine whether on not a truck operator makes money (in the not too distant future).

 

Of course, if they ever find the right place to tap into that alleged 22 trillion barrels of oil under the Rockies, well, then, that may push the necessity for such a beast back some. But even then, the company that produces the first electric line of hvy trucks (assuming, of course, reliability) will clean up as trucking firms will beat down the door. Afterall, the US already has the highest cost of distribution (of products). Perfecting a method of drastically cutting those costs could have dramatic results for the innovator.

 

 

???? This set up, even with "hyper electric" motors is still no more efficient than the diesel engine at the front of the system, (about 40% if operated in it's most efficient dutycycle). Now add in power losses due to changing from mechanical-to-electrical-back to-mechanical. Your right about where the all mechanical driveline losses are today.

 

Cat and Cummins both did studies on how much horse power it takes to move an 80Klb truck @ 70mph on flat ground, no head wind. They were with in 6 hp of each other. Around 270 hp. So there's the size of your small diesel.

 

Now if you added a bank of batterys to store excess energy and recover braking energy, this system would see some efficiency improvement in a delivery type truck, but not much in an over the road truck.

 

As far as I know, diesel ships have VERY slow turning diesels, coupeled directly to the propeller shaft. No diesel-electric here. Some have variable piitch prop for reversing others actually stop and restart the engine in reverse.

 

Railroad locomotives are very close to what you describe, but they weren't designed that way for efficeincey. It came about because there are no geared transmissions that can stand up to the demands of a long haul locomotive. Remember, the diesel has a very narrow touque range compared to the direct drive steam engine it replaced.

 

 

So where does that leave us. I think they're working on power recovery turbines to extract waste energy from the exhaust. Could get as much as 10% of the 30% that goes out the pipe. Ceramics in the combustion chamber could help to harness more of the waste heat into shaft HP.

 

 

BTW: That steam engine that the diesel replaced, was close to 85% efficient from the throttle to the drive wheels. Unfortunately, it was no better than 15% from the firebox to the throttle.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

OTR trucking is an excercise in steady state dynamics of a motive system. Conversion losses will almost always make any system that goes from internal combustion as its primary original power source to any other type of transmission of that power, other than mechanical, less efficient than just a straight mechanical one. Now, and this may be a much better possibility, what about fuel cell tech on OTR trucks? Two motors driving the two axles on the back of a given Semi tractor, Fuel cell stacks in the engine bay, and highly compressed hydrogen tanks behind the cab (the diesel saddle tanks can be for batteries or removed alltogether). The conversion can be continuously run and a steady state achieved with hardly any moving parts. I believe that that will be the next generation of OTR truck design, especially since many of the trucking companies have enough facilites scattered around to have fueling stations setup at their sites, or are big enough to partner with major chains to help with infrastructure upgrades.

[Joe771476]

I see that supposedly Ford/Mulhaly now wants to sell Volvo! There goes 500,000 units! You mean to tell me Volvo loses money?! They have no American legacy costs! Don't tell me they can't make a lousy $500 profit per vehicle! That's $250 million profit alone! If they want to emaciate themselves by selling JLR and Volvo and go back to the way Ford was, then they better be prepared to go full tilt into full line trucks from class 1 thru 8 like they used to make! I'm looking over my book authored by James K. Wagner from Crestline Publishing titled "Ford Trucks Since 1905." It goes up to 1978. I'm not sure if a later edition goes up further. But just up to 1978 the heritage is profound! The military vehicles, transit and school buses, fire apparatus,, construction equipment including cement mixers, the farm tractors and payloaders, the huge H and W-series road tractors, F-1100 series tractors as far back as the 1950's pulling double trailers of fuel tankers, dumps, and the list goes on! It's enough to make a grown man cry! I'm shaking my head wondering how a bunch of supposedly intelligent people can let a truck manufacturer that was a leader in almost every class become so emaciated!!! Very very sad.

[7Mary3]

IF Volvo really is for sale, my guess is that it is because Ford needs the money right now. If Volvo is profitable (Ford never broke the numbers out), then it could be a question of Ford not being able to wait for Volvo to generate enough profit to equate what it could be sold for at the present time. Short sighted? In a perfect world, yes. But Ford may not have a choice. Same could be true for the medium duty truck business. Ford might be able to manufacture class 6 and 7 trucks at a profit, but how much would they have to spend to do it? How long would it take to earn that investment back and start making money on big trucks? How much time/money does Ford have at present?

[FordFanForEver]

Ford at one time was in building garbage trucks and dump trucks... Those surely had to have a big Ford Diesel in them... the cab was a ford design. Why did they stop building garbage and dump trucks?

Edited February 9, 2008 by FordFanForEver

[7Mary3]

Ford at one time was in building garbage trucks and dump trucks... Those surely had to have a big Ford Diesel in them... the cab was a ford design. Why did they stop building garbage and dump trucks?

 

Over the years, class 8 Fords had Cummins, Caterpillar, G.M. (Detroit), and the large 'Super Duty' gas V-8's. Ford never developed a large diesel themselves, they bought them from other companies (like most large truck builders). Ford did put their name on the New Holland 6.6L and 7.8L medium duty diesels from 1985-93. Ford sold their large truck division to Freightliner in 1997.

[Edstock]

and the large 'Super Duty' gas V-8's.

 

401, 477 & 534 CID, IIRC.

[RaZor]

???? This set up, even with "hyper electric" motors is still no more efficient than the diesel engine at the front of the system, (about 40% if operated in it's most efficient dutycycle). Now add in power losses due to changing from mechanical-to-electrical-back to-mechanical. Your right about where the all mechanical driveline losses are today.

 

Cat and Cummins both did studies on how much horse power it takes to move an 80Klb truck @ 70mph on flat ground, no head wind. They were with in 6 hp of each other. Around 270 hp. So there's the size of your small diesel.

 

Now if you added a bank of batterys to store excess energy and recover braking energy, this system would see some efficiency improvement in a delivery type truck, but not much in an over the road truck.

 

As far as I know, diesel ships have VERY slow turning diesels, coupeled directly to the propeller shaft. No diesel-electric here. Some have variable piitch prop for reversing others actually stop and restart the engine in reverse.

 

Railroad locomotives are very close to what you describe, but they weren't designed that way for efficeincey. It came about because there are no geared transmissions that can stand up to the demands of a long haul locomotive. Remember, the diesel has a very narrow touque range compared to the direct drive steam engine it replaced.

So where does that leave us. I think they're working on power recovery turbines to extract waste energy from the exhaust. Could get as much as 10% of the 30% that goes out the pipe. Ceramics in the combustion chamber could help to harness more of the waste heat into shaft HP.

BTW: That steam engine that the diesel replaced, was close to 85% efficient from the throttle to the drive wheels. Unfortunately, it was no better than 15% from the firebox to the throttle.

 

I was outside doing some landscaping maintenance chores around the house today and a front was coming through and it started to rain. So I went in the house and turned on the tube. On the Science channel was a show "How do they do it?" about the world's largest container ship and how they make Peterbilt tractors.

 

It is rather amazing how fast that they can make one (Peterbilt tractor) and almost all are custom ordered with different setups and options. It was interesting to hear them (as they were installing the big 470HP diesel engine) mention that Peterbilt is CURRENTLY exploring using electric motors as the powerplant for long haul trucks. They didn't go into it at all. . . just made the statement.

 

It was on another Science/Discovery show that I saw a ship that had two big electric motors putting out (IIRC) 15-16,000 HP each that turned the screws (no tranny needed). But they also had a big diesel engine that turned a generator that supplied the juice for the whole ship as well as the electric propulsion motors. It might have been an new ice breaker ship, but I am not sure. That hp figure may be way off too.

 

BTW, that container ship has the largest diesel engine ever produced with 110,000 Hp and drives a prop shaft 500 feet long.

[J-150]

It was on another Science/Discovery show that I saw a ship that had two big electric motors putting out (IIRC) 15-16,000 HP each that turned the screws (no tranny needed). But they also had a big diesel engine that turned a generator that supplied the juice for the whole ship as well as the electric propulsion motors. It might have been an new ice breaker ship, but I am not sure. That hp figure may be way off too.

 

BTW, that container ship has the largest diesel engine ever produced with 110,000 Hp and drives a prop shaft 500 feet long.

 

 

That calls for a Tim Allen grunt

[7Mary3]

Talked to my upfitter today. He said that he has heard absolutely nothing regarding the future of the 650/750 Fords. No one seems to know what is going to happen. He did say that there is a lot of interest in International building GM's mediums. The biggest problem with the Topkick and Kodiak has been ordering the trucks. 6-9 month waits were not uncommon, and though the trucks has been considered to be one of the better medium duties, many potential customers could not or would not wait for the long order times. International seems very interested in meeting the demand for these trucks, and the word is that they will deliver them a lot quicker than GM ever did.

[Bob Rosadini]

Talked to my upfitter today. He said that he has heard absolutely nothing regarding the future of the 650/750 Fords. No one seems to know what is going to happen. He did say that there is a lot of interest in International building GM's mediums. The biggest problem with the Topkick and Kodiak has been ordering the trucks. 6-9 month waits were not uncommon, and though the trucks has been considered to be one of the better medium duties, many potential customers could not or would not wait for the long order times. International seems very interested in meeting the demand for these trucks, and the word is that they will deliver them a lot quicker than GM ever did.

Thx for the update- if someone should know you would think a guy such as your buddy would have some sort of inside track on the rumor mill. As for the GM/International thing, I still say it reminds me of what happened to the GM class 8's with "WhiteGMC" As someone explained to me, it was a gimmick to keep GM from being sued in the short term. Think of the devaluation of a franchise if all of a sudden your supplier says..."by the way, in x months you no longer will have a product line to sell."

[7Mary3]

Thx for the update- if someone should know you would think a guy such as your buddy would have some sort of inside track on the rumor mill. As for the GM/International thing, I still say it reminds me of what happened to the GM class 8's with "WhiteGMC" As someone explained to me, it was a gimmick to keep GM from being sued in the short term. Think of the devaluation of a franchise if all of a sudden your supplier says..."by the way, in x months you no longer will have a product line to sell."

 

We went through that 'WhiteGMC' mess, back in 1988 or so. They way it was explained to me was that GM wasn't making much money on the heavy duty trucks, and all their heavy truck models were in need of major updates (even though the old Brigadier was outselling Ford's Louisville's at the time, believe it or not!). Volvo-White wanted GMC's strong dealer network. The problem came when you had areas that were served by both White and GMC dealers- guess who got the shaft? GM actually continued building Brigadier's for Volvo-White with different nameplates for some years (one reason was it was the best truck for auto transporters, big engine and a low cab- White didn't have an equivilent). Some of the former GMC dealers ended up in good shape, they had the WhiteGMC heavy line and the GMC medium line, many continue to this day. Now, I think some of the GM/Navistar deal is due to GM not wanting to build medium/heavy trucks anymore, some is Navistar wanting aditional brand names to sell against Freightliner. GM's commercial truck dealer network is still strong, and Navistar probably thinks it's a bunch more sales and service outlets as well. I figure if Navistar runs this right, it could mean a lot more sales in coming years. GM has been back in the vocational class 8 market for some time, nothing stopping Navistar from going even heavier, either. Back to Ford, all I can say is when I know more, you will know more!

[Mark B. Morrow]

Great old Fords

Edited February 14, 2008 by Mark B. Morrow

[elkarlo]

Interesting. I don't see too many Large Ford "Mack" Trucks. They only make a few 1000 a year. I think it is a market they should be in. Too bad they didn't buy Volvo trucks with the car company. I wonder if they have the energy to really get into the large truck business. Mid size trucks they are king.

[MERKURXR4Ti]

Over the years, class 8 Fords had Cummins, Caterpillar, G.M. (Detroit), and the large 'Super Duty' gas V-8's. Ford never developed a large diesel themselves, they bought them from other companies (like most large truck builders). Ford did put their name on the New Holland 6.6L and 7.8L medium duty diesels from 1985-93. Ford sold their large truck division to Freightliner in 1997.

 

That explains a lot, I did a project for Case New Holland last semester and couldn't figure out why so many large tractors had Ford written on the inline motors. Too bad they lost that venture it seems, CNH sells a ton of equipment needing big diesels.