White House, Democrats reach deal on $15 billion auto aid

[RangerM]

Link to article

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Democratic leaders and the White House reached a deal to provide billions of dollars in relief to the ailing U.S. auto industry, a senior congressional aide told Reuters on Friday.

 

The package, which Democratic leaders hope to win passage of next week and send to President George W. Bush, totals between $15 billion and $17 billion, the aide said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

 

The amount is far less than the $34 billion requested this week by General Motors, Ford Motor, and Chrysler, but Democratic leaders believe the money will keep them going until Barack Obama replaces Bush as president on January 20 and a new effort can be made for a rescue plan.

[RangerM]

Follow up article

 

WASHINGTON (AP) - Amid fresh assembly line layoffs, congressional Democrats and the White House reached for agreement Friday on about $15 billion in bailout loans for the beleaguered auto industry. President George W. Bush warned that at least one of the Big Three carmakers might not survive the current economic crisis.

 

Several officials said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California and White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten spoke by phone. While no details of their conversation were available, it appeared the House's top Democrat had dropped her opposition to Bush's insistence that the aid come from a fund set aside for the production of environmentally friendlier cars.

[suv_guy_19]

Don't know if this has been put here yet, but:

 

Automakers seek $6B aid package from Ontario, federal government

 

Ontario Economic Development Minister Michael Bryant said GM is seeking an immediate $800 million bridge loan as part of a package of repayable loans that would ultimately total $2.4 billion.

 

Chrysler is also seeking a loan but did not publicly divulge the amount. However, the Canadian Press said it has learned the amount is $1.6 billion. It said Ford is asking for a $2-billion line of credit that it could draw upon if necessary.

 

Its certainly bigger than I thought they would ask for (not ford, in total). Its about proportional apparently though.

 

But, with parliament prorogued, I don't know how much the feds can actually give them without getting a Governor Generals Warrant to allow them to spend the money...and that's not a normal thing to do....of course, none of the whole situation is normal.

 

Tony Clement did say though that there is still money left in budget 2008 to get some of this from, and since GM needs money right away, they will probably get it.

Edited December 6, 2008 by suv_guy_19

[Versa-Tech]

Don't know if this has been put here yet, but:

 

Automakers seek $6B aid package from Ontario, federal government

 

 

 

Its certainly bigger than I thought they would ask for (not ford, in total). Its about proportional apparently though.

 

But, with parliament prorogued, I don't know how much the feds can actually give them without getting a Governor Generals Warrant to allow them to spend the money...and that's not a normal thing to do....of course, none of the whole situation is normal.

 

Tony Clement did say though that there is still money left in budget 2008 to get some of this from, and since GM needs money right away, they will probably get it.

I would think so. Canada has a lot of jobs tied into the supply base. Correct me if I'm wrong...

[ANTAUS]

This will tie them up for a month or 2, then what?

[suv_guy_19]

I would think so. Canada has a lot of jobs tied into the supply base. Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

No, its about right. We have 10% of your population, but 20% of the Big 3 manufacturing base....from what I've heard anyway.

[RangerM]

This will tie them up for a month or 2, then what?

 

It kicks the problem past January 20. That's all it needs to.

 

My personal opinion aside, I know there are others here who are concerned about their futures. Perhaps, they can breathe a little easier at least through Christmas.

[kyle]

It kicks the problem past January 20. That's all it needs to.

 

My personal opinion aside, I know there are others here who are concerned about their futures. Perhaps, they can breathe a little easier at least through Christmas.

 

Good point-everything changes after January 20th.

[Extreme4x4]

Yep............... they will be able to get all the aid they want

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As long as the new cars they make, run on rainbows and daisy's.

 

Like Toyota's do.

 

:rolleyes:

[RangerM]

Yep............... they will be able to get all the aid they want

As long as the new cars they make, run on rainbows and daisy's.

Like Toyota's do.

:rolleyes:

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

Either the money should be loaned without ridiculous "green" mandates or other nonsense that borders on fascism (Fascism=Government control of private enterprise), or it shouldn't be loaned at all.

 

No loans would have hurt the most in the short term, but helped the most in the long term.

 

Loans would have helped the most in the short term, and may or may not have helped at all (my opinion is that it would do nothing but postpone things and create greater problems in the future)

 

And whatever the dim-ocrats come up with will APPEAR to help, but will only complicate the business model to the point that the Big 3 won't be able to compete, and the cycle will perpetuate itself.

 

The most twisted thing for me is that even though that last option is the worst possible, the unions will likely end up kissing the ring(s) of those who are killing them. They'll get screwed in every way from Sunday, and thank them for it.

[twmalonehunter]

I agree. And while the big 3 are forced into making cars that no one will buy (with gas at 1.2/gal), toyota will be laughing all the way to the bank, selling Tundras and such with no government oversight whatsoever. Its quite sickening to me.

 

I wish they would have told congress to screw off. GM and Chrysler could maybe have merged to survive and Ford could have survived as long as there was not a bankruptcy for either of the other 2.

 

The problem with this whole mess is that neither Congress nor the American people really have a clue what caused the crisis. I blame the media and gas prices for most of this, you know if you talk down the economy long enough, perception becomes reality.

Edited December 6, 2008 by twmalonehunter

[focus05]

Well, I think the good thing here is that Ford is getting nothing - so the government can't mandate anything to them. GM and Chrysler are getting money to stay afloat, which will keep Ford running - maybe even long enough to not worry about the bankruptcy of a competitor. If Ford can get some DoE loans approved separate from this and either change the terms on their VEBA contribution or sell off part of Volvo, Ford may be stable enough to prop up its suppliers in case of a GM bankruptcy - in which case, it won't need that LOC anyway.

[Versa-Tech]

Well, I think the good thing here is that Ford is getting nothing - so the government can't mandate anything to them. GM and Chrysler are getting money to stay afloat, which will keep Ford running - maybe even long enough to not worry about the bankruptcy of a competitor. If Ford can get some DoE loans approved separate from this and either change the terms on their VEBA contribution or sell off part of Volvo, Ford may be stable enough to prop up its suppliers in case of a GM bankruptcy - in which case, it won't need that LOC anyway.

I agree. Ford didn't even need the money in the first place.

[FordBuyer]

Well, I think the good thing here is that Ford is getting nothing - so the government can't mandate anything to them. GM and Chrysler are getting money to stay afloat, which will keep Ford running - maybe even long enough to not worry about the bankruptcy of a competitor. If Ford can get some DoE loans approved separate from this and either change the terms on their VEBA contribution or sell off part of Volvo, Ford may be stable enough to prop up its suppliers in case of a GM bankruptcy - in which case, it won't need that LOC anyway.

 

Precisely, these STRINGS ATTACHED loans should motivate Ford to cut costs even more so that they don't need to take the loan and deal with strings that will just keep getting more stringent all the time. Ford can then establish a competitive advantage in many ways since they can run their company the way they see fit, not the way the crazies in Congress see fit like GM and Chrysler will have to do.

 

IMO, Chrysler will not be a whole company by end of 2009. Part of it will go to GM and another part to Nissan/Renault. Congress will broker a deal for GM to get some of it and I'm sure Nissan/Renault are still interested if deal is right to protect their interest in Ram pickup.

 

By the end of 2009, it will be GM and Ford as only U.S. based auto manufacturers and both will be very small as far as employes go.

[Going_Going_Gone]

I agree. Ford didn't even need the money in the first place.

But on the other hand, having the government set aside a portion of the money for Ford keeps it out of the hands of the other two (at least for the short term) and prevents them from getting an unfair financial edge over Ford.

[Critic]

Precisely, these STRINGS ATTACHED loans should motivate Ford to cut costs even more so that they don't need to take the loan and deal with strings that will just keep getting more stringent all the time. Ford can then establish a competitive advantage in many ways since they can run their company the way they see fit, not the way the crazies in Congress see fit like GM and Chrysler will have to do.

I'm afraid I have to agree with you. With Ford seeking Line's of Credit from a lot of other countries and special deals, their still on their way to maintaining a GLOBAL presence.

 

Attached below is an article that is a mirror of the exact same words a Ford President used back in 1990. Looks like NOW is gonna be the great shakeout.

MILAN, Dec 6 (Reuters) - Global car makers will be forced to merge to survive the onslaught of the global crisis, leaving their industry with only six big players, Fiat's chief executive was quoted as saying in a report on Saturday. "The only way for companies to survive is if they make more than 5.5 million cars per year," Sergio Marchionne told the European edition of Automotive News, an industry publication.

 

"As far as mass-producers are concerned, we're going to end up with one American house, one German of size; one French-Japanese, maybe with an extension in the U.S.; one in Japan; one in China and one other potential European player."

Fiat CEO sees mergers among car makers

[96 Pony]

The thing that gripes my butt is this whole mantra that the Big Three "Didn't Build Cars That People Wanted."

 

HELOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They built EXACTLY the cars people wanted - SUV's and big friggin engined cars. The same SUV's that Pelosi, Reid and The President, et al. ride about in. The 300C that the Messiah Obama owned until he bought an Escape Hybrid. And then they complain about the auto execs taking private planes to Washington - yet Pelosi's 737 was not big enough and she wanted the taxpayers to get her a 747? I have a very gas thirsty Thunderbird in my garage and 2 previous gas thirsty Mustang GT's because I wanted them - not the fuel efficient Escort and Focus options that were available at the time. :angry:

[Critic]

The thing that gripes my butt is this whole mantra that the Big Three "Didn't Build Cars That People Wanted."

 

HELOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They built EXACTLY the cars people wanted - SUV's and big friggin engined cars. The same SUV's that Pelosi, Reid and The President, et al. ride about in. The 300C that the Messiah Obama owned until he bought an Escape Hybrid. And then they complain about the auto execs taking private planes to Washington - yet Pelosi's 737 was not big enough and she wanted the taxpayers to get her a 747? I have a very gas thirsty Thunderbird in my garage and 2 previous gas thirsty Mustang GT's because I wanted them - not the fuel efficient Escort and Focus options that were available at the time. :angry:

 

Most of the ones complaining the loudest today, where the same ones WHO BOUGHT THE BEHOMETH"S of yesteryear.

 

Where would Ford be today if they had not made the Excursion Valdez? And only made Pinto derivative's. Face it, you look out your widow daily and see your vehicle, but you 'might' see a banker once a week if at that.

[Versa-Tech]

I'm afraid I have to agree with you. With Ford seeking Line's of Credit from a lot of other countries and special deals, their still on their way to maintaining a GLOBAL presence.

 

Attached below is an article that is a mirror of the exact same words a Ford President used back in 1990. Looks like NOW is gonna be the great shakeout.

 

Fiat CEO sees mergers among car makers

Wow, he's living in candy land :lol:

[96 Pony]

Most of the ones complaining the loudest today, where the same ones WHO BOUGHT THE BEHOMETH"S of yesteryear.

 

Where would Ford be today if they had not made the Excursion Valdez? And only made Pinto derivative's. Face it, you look out your widow daily and see your vehicle, but you 'might' see a banker once a week if at that.

 

One of the best selling cars in 2004 = the 300

 

One of the best selling in 2005 = the Mustang.

 

Sounds to me like The Big Three were giving people what they wanted.

 

And then Al Gore pretends he is the earths weatherman and all the sudden it's "OMG - we don't drive a Prius like Gore's son does outside of San Diego at over 100 mph with pot in the car so we must be bad."

 

Meantime, the President-Elect Messiah is riding about in a GMC Yukon.

 

Sounds to me like they were building the cars/trucks people wanted.

[probeGT]

One of the best selling cars in 2004 = the 300

 

One of the best selling in 2005 = the Mustang.

 

Sounds to me like The Big Three were giving people what they wanted.

 

I guess that's true if your definition of "giving the people what they want" is citing a different company each year having a different "novelty" car among the most popular. Where are those 300 and Mustang sales now?

 

And then Al Gore pretends he is the earths weatherman and all the sudden it's "OMG - we don't drive a Prius like Gore's son does outside of San Diego at over 100 mph with pot in the car so we must be bad."

 

Meantime, the President-Elect Messiah is riding about in a GMC Yukon.

 

Wow! You're just throwing it all out there now! Bill O'Limbaugh is in Da house! Did you listen to some of those REPUBLICANS in Congress lecturing the big 3 on how their Toyota plants are doing just fine because they're building cars people want?

 

Bush wouldn't even MEET with Bill Ford a few years ago, if you recall.

 

I agree that's it's two-faced to simultaneously blame the Big 3 for selling too many SUVs and then claim they "don't give people what they want" but to say it's purely a Democratic thing is pretty ridiculous.

[94bronco]

One of the best selling cars in 2004 = the 300

 

One of the best selling in 2005 = the Mustang.

 

Sounds to me like The Big Three were giving people what they wanted.

 

And then Al Gore pretends he is the earths weatherman and all the sudden it's "OMG - we don't drive a Prius like Gore's son does outside of San Diego at over 100 mph with pot in the car so we must be bad."

 

Meantime, the President-Elect Messiah is riding about in a GMC Yukon.

 

Sounds to me like they were building the cars/trucks people wanted.

Good post, I refuse to fall into the global warming paranoria trap and cannot wait until the 6.2 starts appearing. Time to start developement on the 7.0 version of the Boss as I want to lay a couple hundred feet of rubber down in a Superduty in front of the EPA and then go scare the shit out of a couple of Hybrids :happy feet:

[WC-MAN]

Either the money should be loaned without ridiculous "green" mandates or other nonsense that borders on fascism (Fascism=Government control of private enterprise), or it shouldn't be loaned at all.

 

No freakin *&%^! Toyota builds the cars people want, and regardless of what Psychos would have you believe, It isn't the Prius! That car sells so well because its basically the only player in a niche market. Toyota's bread and butter remains the Corolla and Camry, efficient, yes, but not revolutionary. And its not like Toyota and Honda are psychic. Toyota poured millions into the Tundra which has become a dud, and Honda had to withdraw its hybrid Accord.

 

I hope you guys under 30 studied the 70's good in history class, because this is the kinda crap we put up with then, and we're getting ready to live through it again. Unfortunately, Obama looks more like Carter than Reagan, and the congress may be worse.

[96 Pony]

I guess that's true if your definition of "giving the people what they want" is citing a different company each year having a different "novelty" car among the most popular. Where are those 300 and Mustang sales now?

 

 

 

Wow! You're just throwing it all out there now! Bill O'Limbaugh is in Da house! Did you listen to some of those REPUBLICANS in Congress lecturing the big 3 on how their Toyota plants are doing just fine because they're building cars people want?

 

Bush wouldn't even MEET with Bill Ford a few years ago, if you recall.

 

I agree that's it's two-faced to simultaneously blame the Big 3 for selling too many SUVs and then claim they "don't give people what they want" but to say it's purely a Democratic thing is pretty ridiculous.

 

Al Gore's Town Car sat outside the Moscone Center in San Francisco this past year running, with the AC on so his family would be comfortable when he finished his speech.

 

So we have a Town Car running during a two hour appearance, while his home in Tenesssee is "less green" than the Bush ranch in Texas and this is being called a slam against Dems?

 

It's actually called reality.

 

P.S. - I am stil waiting on the Global Cooling we were warned about when I was a senior in the early 80's/

Edited December 7, 2008 by 96 Pony

[Noah Harbinger]

I hope you guys under 30 studied the 70's good in history class, because this is the kinda crap we put up with then, and we're getting ready to live through it again. Unfortunately, Obama looks more like Carter than Reagan, and the congress may be worse.

 

Actually I'm going to predict that Obama will end up being more like Johnson ("Great Society", civil rights, etc)... with some major differences:

 

1) The conservative democrats have, more or less, already left the party, so he doesn't have to worry about a schism forming over the direction he takes the party.

2) He's not going to push hard for expanding our involvement in an unpopular war -- unless Afghanistan gets bad, or we end up invading Pakistan or Iran

3) No cabinet meetings in the bathroom

 

Plus, a side helping of Roosevelt ("New Deal") to cement blue collar voters

 

Write that down and call me back in 4 years.