Blue Diamond News

[7Mary3]

Looks like there will be a 2010 F-650 and 750:

 

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090113/navistar_in..._ford.html?.v=1

 

I had a feeling. I think Navistar was using the threat of shutting down Blue Diamond as a bargaining chip in the dispute over the Powerstroke diesels. Looks like Navistar got the better end of the deal, but Ford is still in the medium market and gets to introduce their own diesels in the 250-550 sooner. One point that I find interesting is that International will take more equity in Blue Diamond. Maybe that will make up for loosing the GM medium and heavy trucks?

[RichardJensen]

I don't think you can say Navistar got the better end of the deal unless you know the terms of the settlement. Ford was under contract until 2012 (IIRC). Unless you know how much Ford paid (or didn't pay) to buyout those last three years, you don't know how well (or ill) Navistar made out.

[theoldwizard]

I don't think you can say Navistar got the better end of the deal unless you know the terms of the settlement. Ford was under contract until 2012 (IIRC). Unless you know how much Ford paid (or didn't pay) to buyout those last three years, you don't know how well (or ill) Navistar made out.

Well said !

 

Personally, I think Ford got the better end of the deal. They certainly had a stronger case for Navistar "sharing" more of the warranty costs on the 6.0L ! Better for Navistar to walk away from the engine contract then to be forced to pay money they don't have !!

[jpd80]

Looks like it was an amicable settlement as Ford and Navistar continue to do business.

I think both parties were glad to reach settlement and put the trouble behind them.

[ANTAUS]

I dont know, but personally if someone sues me, I wouldn't do business with them again. This makes for odd bedfellows. I will rather built in house than source anything out back to them.

[Bob Rosadini]

They say timing is everything. Granted the economy sucks, but with Sterling gone, a lot of the Sterling dealers who did not have a dual franchise (Freightliner/Western Star) don't have a class 8 to sell. A year ago if ford tried to build a tandem 750 ("850") there would have been yawns. Today? My book says the Ford-Sterling dealers would be very recptive to that.

 

Lets just hope the Bluediamond venture is smart enough to recognize the progress Hino is making as well.

[Joe771476]

According to the magazine Transport Topics, Navistar made a hefty profit in 2008! Hmmm, maybe there IS money to be made in class 6 thru 8!

[7Mary3]

I have been told that Navistar's share of Blue Diamond is now 75%. Now, the question is is Navistar serious about growing Blue Diamond, or are they going to keep it from being a serious competitor to International? Anyone still think Ford got a deal in this? Ford pays to end the contract, eats a whole lot of warranty costs, and looses control of Blue Diamond.

[RichardJensen]

I have been told that Navistar's share of Blue Diamond is now 75%. Now, the question is is Navistar serious about growing Blue Diamond, or are they going to keep it from being a serious competitor to International? Anyone still think Ford got a deal in this? Ford pays to end the contract, eats a whole lot of warranty costs, and looses control of Blue Diamond.

Like I said, unless you know the terms of the settlement, there's no way that you can say who got what for what.

 

Say 150,000 diesels (min.) at $3k a pop, and you're looking at $450M a year for 3 years, or $1.35B

 

You think Ford paid Navistar $1.35B? I don't.

 

And I think Ford's annual payments to Navistar were probably more than $450M.

Edited January 22, 2009 by RichardJensen

[Bob Rosadini]

Well if in fact the split is now 75/25, one would have to wonder what kind of influence Ford has in the deal. With the engine sales out of the picture (ex SA) I'd say not much. Also this has to mean curtains for the LCF as that is powered by the V-6 version of the V-8. According to a dealer mfriend of mine, the LCF is a great truck- except for the engine! He says good ridance!

 

As for 7m3's point on International doing nothing to bolster Ford's sales, I would have to agree. For 11 mos ytd 08, International was 32.4% F'liner was 30.8% and Ford was 7.08% of class 7. For 6, the respective numbers were 40.05%, 21.64% and 17.8%. And with Hino nipping at everyone's heels, think the International marketers are going to care about boklstering Ford's position???

 

On another note, after announcing they were exiting on highway truck engines 3 or 4 mos ago, Cat announces they will build 15 liter engines for Navistar exclusively. I also hear that they canned their JV to build Cat badged off highway truck. Stay tuned. Two years ago I thought there was a shot for Ford to buy International when the no compete went away. Obviously things have changed given the current financial picture but long term, with everyone partnering up, can Navistar make it on their own long term?

[7Mary3]

Well if in fact the split is now 75/25, one would have to wonder what kind of influence Ford has in the deal. With the engine sales out of the picture (ex SA) I'd say not much. Also this has to mean curtains for the LCF as that is powered by the V-6 version of the V-8. According to a dealer mfriend of mine, the LCF is a great truck- except for the engine! He says good ridance!

 

As for 7m3's point on International doing nothing to bolster Ford's sales, I would have to agree. For 11 mos ytd 08, International was 32.4% F'liner was 30.8% and Ford was 7.08% of class 7. For 6, the respective numbers were 40.05%, 21.64% and 17.8%. And with Hino nipping at everyone's heels, think the International marketers are going to care about boklstering Ford's position???

 

On another note, after announcing they were exiting on highway truck engines 3 or 4 mos ago, Cat announces they will build 15 liter engines for Navistar exclusively. I also hear that they canned their JV to build Cat badged off highway truck. Stay tuned. Two years ago I thought there was a shot for Ford to buy International when the no compete went away. Obviously things have changed given the current financial picture but long term, with everyone partnering up, can Navistar make it on their own long term?

 

I am wondering what happened to International's engine deal with MAN. As for the Ford/Navistar breakup deal, I don't know the terms, but some Navistar people I talked to seemed to think they got the better end of the deal.

[RichardJensen]

As for the Ford/Navistar breakup deal, I don't know the terms, but some Navistar people I talked to seemed to think they got the better end of the deal.

Well, how much do they know of the matter?

 

One thing you know for certain is that 'undisclosed' means 'undisclosed'. Nobody that knows can name the dollar amount, therefore, it's all rumor and hearsay.

 

I mean, how can you tell if some exec, in the know, is telling the truth when he says, "We got the better end of the deal"?

[7Mary3]

Well, how much do they know of the matter?

 

One thing you know for certain is that 'undisclosed' means 'undisclosed'. Nobody that knows can name the dollar amount, therefore, it's all rumor and hearsay.

 

I mean, how can you tell if some exec, in the know, is telling the truth when he says, "We got the better end of the deal"?

 

You don't, if he works for Ford or Navistar!

[Bob Rosadini]

Saw a press release today from Eaton. The Eaton Ultrashift HV will now be available in 650/750. This is a good sign that new components are being engineered in.

[7Mary3]

Saw a press release today from Eaton. The Eaton Ultrashift HV will now be available in 650/750. This is a good sign that new components are being engineered in.

 

It's probably a plus that the 650 and 750 are based on International 4400's: As International adds options to the 4400 in many cases they can be offered on the big Fords as well. I wonder if the new Scorpion diesel (or some other diesel than the 6.7L Cummins) will make it on te option list.

[packardbob]

It's probably a plus that the 650 and 750 are based on International 4400's: As International adds options to the 4400 in many cases they can be offered on the big Fords as well. I wonder if the new Scorpion diesel (or some other diesel than the 6.7L Cummins) will make it on te option list.

 

How often does Ford update their commercial truck website? Because the CAT 7.2L is still listed as an option along with the 6.7 Cummins. When is CAT to quit making the 7.2L diesel? Also will Ford be putting the 4.4L diesel in place of the Powerstroke 4.5 in the LCFs? Im asking because Ive read on several Ford Truck forums that the 4.5 was pretty much a 6 cylinder version of the 6.0 and I know the first two or three years of those were pretty sketchy so I am wondering if Ford wants to dump the International sourced engines completely.

[Bob Rosadini]

How often does Ford update their commercial truck website? Because the CAT 7.2L is still listed as an option along with the 6.7 Cummins. When is CAT to quit making the 7.2L diesel? Also will Ford be putting the 4.4L diesel in place of the Powerstroke 4.5 in the LCFs? Im asking because Ive read on several Ford Truck forums that the 4.5 was pretty much a 6 cylinder version of the 6.0 and I know the first two or three years of those were pretty sketchy so I am wondering if Ford wants to dump the International sourced engines completely.

As to updating the website? I think they are asleep at the switch. The Ford Fleet site, which you can only access if you have a Ford fleet number, still lists the Cat. The "public" site doesn't. Make sense?

 

 

As for the 4.5, sooner it goes the better if I believe a dealer friend of mine who spent years trying to get a customer only to blow it with 4.5 issues. What he did say is its too bad as the LCF is a nice piece- with a crap engine-in his view.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

While technically speaking, the 4.4L diesel would be a fabulous upgrade from the 4.5L ShortStroke Diesel, fiscally, its a non-trivially more expensive engine given its higher tech bits, and greater parts count. I would dare say that the 4.4L would not be a competitive powerplant for that application due to the decent amount of adequately specced competition in that market that could likely under cut it in price. Its only saving grace might be that the volume potential of that engine is rather high (E-series, F-Superduty, Expedition, Navigator, possible future in the F-150, motor home chasis/cutaways, etc.) so that it may enjoy a significantly reduced amount of fixed cost overhead per engine as compared to its competition.

[rmc523]

While technically speaking, the 4.4L diesel would be a fabulous upgrade from the 4.5L ShortStroke Diesel, fiscally, its a non-trivially more expensive engine given its higher tech bits, and greater parts count. I would dare say that the 4.4L would not be a competitive powerplant for that application due to the decent amount of adequately specced competition in that market that could likely under cut it in price. Its only saving grace might be that the volume potential of that engine is rather high (E-series, F-Superduty, Expedition, Navigator, possible future in the F-150, motor home chasis/cutaways, etc.) so that it may enjoy a significantly reduced amount of fixed cost overhead per engine as compared to its competition.

 

I thought the 4.4 was put on hold?

[Joe771476]

In a crane magazine I saw a crane body mounted on a new 4X4 F750! So maybe there is hope!

[fbmphil]

I thought the 4.4 was put on hold?

 

Just for the F-150. It's going to have a Super Duty application too.

[rmc523]

Just for the F-150. It's going to have a Super Duty application too.

 

Oh, ok, I thought the whole project was on hold.

[7Mary3]

Well, now that we know 'Blue Diamond' and the 650 and 750 Super Duty's will be around at least a few more years, what changes to the medium duties do you suppose will happen? I had a chance to talk to a former commercial truck sales rep. I know, and he had a few interesting things to say. One option that had been rumored for quite some time but never happened was the availability of the 6.8L gas V-10 in the 650. It turns out that was very close to happening. U-Haul wanted to place a large order for just such a truck. Unfortunately, Ford didn't think the size of the order and the prospect of additional sales was enough to justify the expense of engineering and added complication to the assembly line. U-Haul bought GMC 6500's with 8.1L gas V-8's, and the order was large enough to increase GMC's market share in that weight class last year. Another rumor was the F-850 tandem. The 'no-compete' clause signed with Freightliner as part of the heavy duty truck line sale prohibited Ford from offering such a truck, but with the expiration of that agreement and the demise of Sterling some thought the F-850 would finally happen. The problem now is Cummins does not allow the ISB to be used in tandem axle trucks, and with the demise of the Cat C-7 Ford doesn't offer a suitable engine for an F-850. There are two diesels that just might be suitable for an F-850, the International Maxxforce 7 and the Cummins ISC. Since it seems that International dealers would revolt if any of IH's proprietary diesel wound up in competing trucks, I think the ISC would be more likely. At one time, the Cat C-9 was rumored to appear on the option list, but with Caterpillar exiting the highway engine business, that is highly unlikely. I think with the recession we are not likely to see many changes to the 650 and 750, but I think there may just be a possibility of a ISC powered F-850 tandem when the economy start to improve. I don't think there is much chance the 6.2L 'Boss' gas V-8 or the 6.7L 'Scorpion' diesel V-8 showing up in the 650 or 750.

[Bob Rosadini]

Well, now that we know 'Blue Diamond' and the 650 and 750 Super Duty's will be around at least a few more years, what changes to the medium duties do you suppose will happen? I had a chance to talk to a former commercial truck sales rep. I know, and he had a few interesting things to say. One option that had been rumored for quite some time but never happened was the availability of the 6.8L gas V-10 in the 650. It turns out that was very close to happening. U-Haul wanted to place a large order for just such a truck. Unfortunately, Ford didn't think the size of the order and the prospect of additional sales was enough to justify the expense of engineering and added complication to the assembly line. U-Haul bought GMC 6500's with 8.1L gas V-8's, and the order was large enough to increase GMC's market share in that weight class last year. Another rumor was the F-850 tandem. The 'no-compete' clause signed with Freightliner as part of the heavy duty truck line sale prohibited Ford from offering such a truck, but with the expiration of that agreement and the demise of Sterling some thought the F-850 would finally happen. The problem now is Cummins does not allow the ISB to be used in tandem axle trucks, and with the demise of the Cat C-7 Ford doesn't offer a suitable engine for an F-850. There are two diesels that just might be suitable for an F-850, the International Maxxforce 7 and the Cummins ISC. Since it seems that International dealers would revolt if any of IH's proprietary diesel wound up in competing trucks, I think the ISC would be more likely. At one time, the Cat C-9 was rumored to appear on the option list, but with Caterpillar exiting the highway engine business, that is highly unlikely. I think with the recession we are not likely to see many changes to the 650 and 750, but I think there may just be a possibility of a ISC powered F-850 tandem when the economy start to improve. I don't think there is much chance the 6.2L 'Boss' gas V-8 or the 6.7L 'Scorpion' diesel V-8 showing up in the 650 or 750.

 

As for the V-10 650, As GM is the only one making a gas powered class 6, I wonder what their sales numbers are? That would have to be a key number- what could they rob? second question, with the current gas/diesel fuel price differential, annual mileage then becomes a significant number with I have to believe, plenty of users out there who just can't justify the diesel premium.

 

Last point, I have to believe that the V-10 is an option in all sorts of motor home chassis. Just how difficult should it be to stick it in a 650? Perhaps Escobedo assembly engineering was a bigger issue?

 

As for the ISB/tandem issue, interesting. I would say cold day in hell before the 466 would end up in anything but an International and as for the ISC, what would it need- a bigger radiator?

[351cid]

The F-53 with the V-10 is the most popular gas motor home.