Farley says Ford needs new Cop Car

[matthewq4b]

answer...not lucrative ( Ford abandoned retail sales due to complete LACK OF ) stable...uh uh....municipalities go to the CHEAPEST bidder their loyaly ends with their bugetary constraints...Profitable???? go back to the last sentence ...the word specifically is CHEAPEST. Panthers ended up costing their dealers time, Flooring and ultimately had to be sold at losses, boy THATS great PR....finally it is gone and we have SUPERIOR product, so continue whining, you and your bridge club at least have something to talk about after square dancing at the seniors party. Get with the times Mat. embrace it, Ford DID, thats why a business model could NOT be made for the Crown vic, may the gracious old lady rest in peace....failure to embrace change is a major reason Ford got itself into its current bind, thank GOD they listened to the public and NOT Panther faithful....

 

 

Again take off the blinders it is not about the Vic or the panther but the segment. The panther has had it's run. It needs to be replaced no one has argured that. The segement should not be abondonded.

Ford currently has no viable for the Vic for the service it see's the closest replacment is the SS Tahoe.

Fuel milaage in real world use is comparible cost of purchase is comparibly close. Durabilty is on par with the CV cost of mait and repair is on par.

 

Ford needs to get something in there to replace the Vic I do not care what it is. A rehashed Tarus a modded Expedition who gives a fuck what it is as long as it adequatly fills the nich vacated by the vic when it is gone.

 

The only ones here that have an issue in getting with the times are the one that canot see beyond the Panther animosity.

 

Wake up and ask the hard question like the topic asked Ford needs a new cop car. That is the issue at hand. No weather vic viable for now it is it still makes money but 3 years now such will not be the case. No one is disputing that.

 

Ford needs to act now to protect the market the share they enjoy current with the Panthers. Ford has already given away over 70% of it through 20 years of neglecting the segment. Do you think those lost segment sales stayed within Ford? I can tell you they did not. I guess your looking to lose the last 30%.

Might as well give that away too. That is a sure fire road to profitablity and regained market share.

 

 

Matthew

[RichardJensen]

Holy cow you not that thick are you Richard? It comes to economy of scale. It has northing to do with the virtues of the VIC selling other vehicles. But the convenience of dealing with one company or even one dealer (freedom ford is the default supplier to the city)

 

There is more to the picture then you think

I don't know how it works in Edmonton, but around these parts all gov't purchases are either let to bid, or had better come with a dang good explanation why they ain't.

 

Convenience doesn't enter into it. This city runs Crown Vics, Tahoes, and Durangos for its police fleet, Impalas (and old cruisers) for general fleet, and an assortment of Rangers, Silveradoes, Colorados and F150s for trucks.

 

Dang near all the Class 7 equipment is International, but that's probably because they've got a pretty legit basis for going single source on that.

 

---

 

And you know what? Most governments in the US do business this way. There's no honor among thieves after all.... :P

[RichardJensen]

Ford has already given away over 70% of it through 20 years of neglecting the segment. Do you think those lost segment sales stayed within Ford?

And went where? To GM? To Chrysler? And if to them, how has the defecting panther business benefited them?

 

Seriously: here's the deal--

 

From '94 to '04 Ford was the only fullsize RWD game in town. During that period of neglect, well documented by you, panther buyers went where exactly?

 

Did they die?

 

Did they go to other brands?

 

If they went to other brands, then they must have gone with a FWD offering, as Ford was making the only entrylevel RWD sedan.

 

So, if that business left, then RWD couldn't have been a deal breaker for them. If RWD was a deal breaker they would've stayed with Ford.

Edited January 22, 2009 by RichardJensen

[GT40 2]

More Charger sales for Dodge.

[BORG]

The older the Crown Vic gets, the more orphaned the parts become. The more orphaned and low volume those parts are, the more expensive they are to produce. We are now looking at the obsolescence of the native power plant which will require a substantial investment into a segment with microscopic profitability in order to remain in production. The death of the 4.6L will be the end to the Panther platform.

 

Ford will now need to work on a replacement solution. Ford is no longer a fleet dumper like GM and Chrysler, their showroom cars are not to be dumped unprofitably on government lots. If you think Ford is going to treat the Taurus this way, you are sorely mistaken! I would wait to see what they do, it could be very ambitious and innovative just like everything has been lately.

 

I have to admit however, that when I saw the new Taurus, I thought of a Robocop edition. Apparently, a new Robocop film is in pre-production for 2010. It makes me wonder if they'll use the new Taurus

Edited January 22, 2009 by BORG

[jpd80]

The one thing I don't understand is this, if Ford makes little or no money off panther sales to PDs,

then why is Farley entertaining thoughts of a new FWD/AWD vehicle to them?

 

Is it just simple economics and weight of numbers to stop panthers and double Taurus output?

 

Could it be Ford bites the bullet and says enough of the dual personality large car thing?

Edited January 22, 2009 by jpd80

[lfeg]

The one thing I don't understand is this, if Ford makes little or no money off panther sales to PDs,

then why is Farley entertaining thoughts of a new FWD/AWD vehicle to them?

 

Is it just simple economics and weight of numbers to stop panthers and double Taurus output?

 

Could it be Ford bites the bullet and says enough of the dual personality large car thing?

The thoughts are being entertained because they need to have a vehicle that can be used for police service that is on a platform that sells well in other market segments. Economics, although not very simple. Ford can increase profitability by having police vehicle that adds incremental sales to a line that is already profitable rather than maintaining separate (and greatly underutilized) facilities to produce an orphan vehicle.

[Deanh]

Again take off the blinders it is not about the Vic or the panther but the segment. The panther has had it's run. It needs to be replaced no one has argured that. The segement should not be abondonded.

Ford currently has no viable for the Vic for the service it see's the closest replacment is the SS Tahoe.

Fuel milaage in real world use is comparible cost of purchase is comparibly close. Durabilty is on par with the CV cost of mait and repair is on par.

 

Ford needs to get something in there to replace the Vic I do not care what it is. A rehashed Tarus a modded Expedition who gives a fuck what it is as long as it adequatly fills the nich vacated by the vic when it is gone.

 

The only ones here that have an issue in getting with the times are the one that canot see beyond the Panther animosity.

 

Wake up and ask the hard question like the topic asked Ford needs a new cop car. That is the issue at hand. No weather vic viable for now it is it still makes money but 3 years now such will not be the case. No one is disputing that.

 

Ford needs to act now to protect the market the share they enjoy current with the Panthers. Ford has already given away over 70% of it through 20 years of neglecting the segment. Do you think those lost segment sales stayed within Ford? I can tell you they did not. I guess your looking to lose the last 30%.

Might as well give that away too. That is a sure fire road to profitablity and regained market share.

 

 

Matthew

quick question...what vehicle in that segment is as you say...Lucrative? Unless Ford makes MONEY on a new cop car why should they...and like I said and you have ignored, SEVERAL Taurus's have been bought as undercover units...probably for evaluatyion and feedback TO Ford, so whos to say a HD taurus is NOT on the boards...and like I have also stated...there is no business case for a vehicle prdominently built SOLELY to appese a non profitable sector ( Fleet, rentals, municipalities )...and for the record, i have no animosity to the panther, but her days are done...seems i'm more in tune with reality....and market share ans sales...you can't tell me shite....Fords on the right track not obsessed with the horse and cart....

Edited January 22, 2009 by Deanh

[matthewq4b]

quote name='GT40 2' date='Jan 21 2009, 08:21 PM' post='456071']

More Charger sales for Dodge.

 

 

And that is where they went upon the announcement of the Charger and the Magnum in 02 sales started a rather drastic downward trend 30% loss in 3 years. While the LX Cars were enjoying 200K plus sales for a couple years. Heck remember I bought one. Unfortunately they turned out to be typical Chryslers and they could not retain current customers or keep repeat customers. From there people looked elsewhere.

 

Even if stuff is let for bid a single supplier can provide cheaper equipment if it a bulk order.

As for the splitting of the cruisers in your area they may have lets bids for vehicles with different specifications that the CV could not meet. Municipality fleet managers are notorious for doing this, that way they can pigeon hole a certain model-models. All they have to do is provide a solid reason as to why they spec'd those specific specifications. And that 9 times out of ten is not hard to explain that away. And is usually only questioned when someone is doing an in depth cost audit.

 

For Smaller municipalities it is not near the big deal to by vehicles from several manufacturers as the accounting dept may only be dealing with several hundred or a couple thousand units but for larger centers where they could be dealing with ten thousand or more units the situation changes.

 

Either way loosing the sales of the panther with out having some thing that can take their place is going to cost more at the bottom end than just the loss of the Panther sales.

 

Ford needs to keep every customer they have and add to it. They need to get a suitable replacement for the segment. Regardless what it is or where it's roots are. Stuffing the current Taurus in there is and has been a band aid solution.

 

Ford Spent a wad of cash for and on the D3's It has spawned many models almost half of which have been or will end up being chopped due to sagging sales. When you can walk out the door with 10K of the Taurus X and 8K off the Taurus with out even bargaining you know there are sales expectation problems within the model line. We better hope the 2010 model does better or the viability whole D3 sedan program is going to be called in to question real fast.

 

I still feel that Ford NA should have worked closer with Ford AU in modifying the Falcon program to accept AWD or even FWD drive trains If you can AWD a FWD vehicle is not that much more of a stretch to achieve, it would have been a better replacement for the Panthers and fulfilled the requirements of a full size sedan for NA. The Crossovers could have remained on the D3. Basically you would have the same situation as now with less models. None of the D3 sedans are doing much better than their Panther counter parts any how.

 

Neither platform is fully connecting in the segment. The segment sales total is very respectable and it is a lucrative segment with the potential for big profit margins, but Ford is having too split it between 2 times as many vehicles as is necessary. And are ending up with nothing that is really selling that well ot making piles of money. Ford needs to get one platform that will fulfill the needs of the Panther buyers and the D3 sedan buyers. The segment needs to be consolidated. Stating that the D3's can do the job alone is as silly as stating the Panther can do the job alone. Neither is up to the whole task at hand.

 

For now Ford will have to trudge along with what they have and hope that the 2010 Taurus finally hits the mark. Sadly I doubt it is going to do that . I do hope I'm wrong.

 

Ford needs to be looking at 2012 and 2013 for full size sedan platform that can do the whole job, by then the D3 chassis will be ready for retirement any how and the Panther if it is still around will be long long long over due for retirement. The panthers will be around as long it they are turning a profit. As soon as they slip in to the red they will be axed. For now Ford has to hope to they can hang on to the sales they get with both the D3 sedans and the Panthers with out shedding to many more over the upcoming years. Wishing ill on either is short sighted and stupid at this point in the game. Ford needs every profit making sale they can get right now. Hopefully Ford will be in a better position in a few years to address the problem correctly. But for the interim we should just be happy that Ford is still the leader in one Car segment. And hope that they can retain those customers until a suitable replacement is brought forward that can do the job of both the D3 sedans and the Panthers.

 

Cutting one or the other with out a comprehensive game plan in place to pick up those sales is short sighted and very stupid.

 

 

Matthew

Edited January 23, 2009 by matthewq4b

[matthewq4b]

quick question...what vehicle in that segment is as you say...Lucrative? Unless Ford makes MONEY on a new cop car why should they...and like I said and you have ignored, SEVERAL Taurus's have been bought as undercover units...probably for evaluatyion and feedback TO Ford, so whos to say a HD taurus is NOT on the boards...and like I have also stated...there is no business case for a vehicle prdominently built SOLELY to appese a non profitable sector ( Fleet, rentals, municipalities )...and for the record, i have no animosity to the panther, but her days are done...seems i'm more in tune with reality....and market share ans sales...you can't tell me shite....Fords on the right track not obsessed with the horse and cart....

 

 

Bottom line is a strut front suspention can not handle the abuse of A Arms simple as that. But the time you beefed the stuts up enoughyou would have lost any weight or cost savings.

 

Stuff a proper A arm suspension in the Taurus and you may have a fighting chance.

 

And I did not Ignore that sevral Tauri have been bough as pIlice units . YOU ignored the fact that the EPS has been tesing half dozens cars and has found them to be as lacking as the last gen of Impalas were.

 

These were SS speced Tauri for the EPS. The issues they are encountering are problems in the base engineering design of the vehicle stuff that can not be fixed with out a major rework of the chassis. And even then the disadvantages of FWD remain. And like I said the AWD units push the price past that of other vehicles such as the Tahoe.

 

Every time we get new FWD cop car on the market the cry of this is the death of the Panthers come to light. Well we have been hearing that same cry for over 20 years now. Ya over 20 years and no one has yet designed a FWD that can handle the abuse of the Panther. The new Taurus brings no signifigant suspension engineering or design advantages or advances over the last crop of failed FWD police cars.

 

The Panther chassis has 30 years of severe service refinement behind it. Short of an out right purpose built FWD chassis no other FWD going to be able to match it any time soon and as long as struts are used as the spindels upper support member it never will. Espacially the way Ford does upper strut mounts on coil over Mac Strut applications.

 

Matthew

Edited January 23, 2009 by matthewq4b

[matthewq4b]

The older the Crown Vic gets, the more orphaned the parts become. The more orphaned and low volume those parts are, the more expensive they are to produce. We are now looking at the obsolescence of the native power plant which will require a substantial investment into a segment with microscopic profitability in order to remain in production. The death of the 4.6L will be the end to the Panther platform.

 

Ford will now need to work on a replacement solution. Ford is no longer a fleet dumper like GM and Chrysler, their showroom cars are not to be dumped unprofitably on government lots. If you think Ford is going to treat the Taurus this way, you are sorely mistaken! I would wait to see what they do, it could be very ambitious and innovative just like everything has been lately.

 

I have to admit however, that when I saw the new Taurus, I thought of a Robocop edition. Apparently, a new Robocop film is in pre-production for 2010. It makes me wonder if they'll use the new Taurus

 

 

250 million a year is hardly microscopic. That is the current profit margin. Not total sales dollars.

 

And Ford is still fleet dumping the Taurus and Taurus X are now the darlings of Budget and the likes.

 

And Ford does not have to fleet dump them are they just dumping them $10K off MRSP the Taurus X and 8K off the Taurus with the dealer still willing to negotiate lower and these are on factory orders. Looks like dumping to me.

 

 

Matthew

Edited January 23, 2009 by matthewq4b

[rmc523]

250 million a year is hardly microscopic. That is the current profit margin. Not total sales dollars.

 

And Ford is still fleet dumping the Taurus and Taurus X are now the darlings of Budget and the likes.

 

And Ford does not have to fleet dump them are they just dumping them $10K off MRSP the Taurus X and 8K off the Taurus with the dealer still willing to negotiate lower and these are on factory orders. Looks like dumping to me.

 

 

Matthew

 

And I'm sure Ford would like to avoid that with the new Taurus.

[matthewq4b]

And I'm sure Ford would like to avoid that with the new Taurus.

 

 

I'm sure they would too and hopefully they will. That was the intetion of the D3 but it never materialized.

 

Ford has to get it through their heads the Full Size segment is a high fleet segment just as P/U trucks are.

Always has been always will be.

Instead of fighting it they need to use it to thier advantage like they do with the trucks.

 

I fear the only way Ford will get this pounded through thier heads is if the next Taurus ends up like the current one. Then they will do one of 2 things. Abandon the full size segment all together or build a car capable of fulling all the needs of the segments users like they have done with the F Series.

 

 

Matthew

Edited January 23, 2009 by matthewq4b

[RichardJensen]

250 million a year is hardly microscopic. That is the current profit margin. Not total sales dollars.

Where the h - e - double hockey-sticks is your proof?

 

Also, I'm willing to cut you a certain amount of slack here, Matt, but you can't have it both ways:

 

You can't on one hand laud the panther for its 'simple' layout, and then decry the far simpler Mac Strut layout as 'inherently weak'.

 

Say one thing and mean it: The panther front suspension is more complex than the Taurus front suspension, but it's also tougher.

 

----

 

And regarding REAL WORLD durability, your accounts of the Edmonton Police are hardly definitive. The city of New York has, for some years now, run a very high percentage of Impalas as part of their police fleet. If Impalas were universally bad, they would not be in service in the NYPD. The NYPD (note) never rolled out the Intrepid police cruiser on any major scale, or the Charger, even though they tested both.

 

----

 

I trust that the Crown Vic is more durable than the Impala and Taurus. Especially when it comes to the front suspension.

 

However, I am at a loss to understand just why Ford should continue to make a car whose only appeal is to LEOs that pound holy heck out of their vehicles. For every other constituency, there are other, better solutions available.

Edited January 23, 2009 by RichardJensen

[Deanh]

Bottom line is a strut front suspention can not handle the abuse of A Arms simple as that. But the time you beefed the stuts up enoughyou would have lost any weight or cost savings.

 

Stuff a proper A arm suspension in the Taurus and you may have a fighting chance.

 

And I did not Ignore that sevral Tauri have been bough as pIlice units . YOU ignored the fact that the EPS has been tesing half dozens cars and has found them to be as lacking as the last gen of Impalas were.

 

These were SS speced Tauri for the EPS. The issues they are encountering are problems in the base engineering design of the vehicle stuff that can not be fixed with out a major rework of the chassis. And even then the disadvantages of FWD remain. And like I said the AWD units push the price past that of other vehicles such as the Tahoe.

 

Every time we get new FWD cop car on the market the cry of this is the death of the Panthers come to light. Well we have been hearing that same cry for over 20 years now. Ya over 20 years and no one has yet designed a FWD that can handle the abuse of the Panther. The new Taurus brings no signifigant suspension engineering or design advantages or advances over the last crop of failed FWD police cars.

 

The Panther chassis has 30 years of severe service refinement behind it. Short of an out right purpose built FWD chassis no other FWD going to be able to match it any time soon and as long as struts are used as the spindels upper support member it never will. Espacially the way Ford does upper strut mounts on coil over Mac Strut applications.

 

Matthew

see matt...thats the beauty of TESTING...please write that down, along with EVALUATE....and add FEEDBACK.....do you ACTUALLY think the CV was where it is today when it was first released?????????????? Guess what, it was TESTED, EVALUATED and FEEDBACK was given to ford in order for it to fit SPECIFIC NEEDS....it was NOT a turn key cop car with its CURRENT capabilities ( 75 mph rear impact for example ) at its initial gestatation.....guess what...develope the Taurus for 30 years than get back to me.....

[Deanh]

250 million a year is hardly microscopic. That is the current profit margin. Not total sales dollars.

 

And Ford is still fleet dumping the Taurus and Taurus X are now the darlings of Budget and the likes.

 

And Ford does not have to fleet dump them are they just dumping them $10K off MRSP the Taurus X and 8K off the Taurus with the dealer still willing to negotiate lower and these are on factory orders. Looks like dumping to me.

 

 

Matthew

back everyone of those facts up please...I sell fleet...guess what...I'm calling YOU OUT...back it up BS boy....especially LOCKING in discounts and rebates at the time of a factory order....sorry, THATS not even legal....

[battyr]

The value of the Vic is that it is built like a truck. The problem is that it is out of date.

 

I would say the solution would to replace the the Vic with something new, based off a light duty truck.

 

The Explorer makes a good Cop car. The Transit Connect make a good Taxi. A Navigator makes a good limo.

 

 

 

This is my choice of Cop car. Just add a cage in the back for prisoners.

[Deanh]

The value of the Vic is that it is built like a truck. The problem is that it is out of date.

 

I would say the solution would to replace the the Vic with something new, based off a light duty truck.

 

The Explorer makes a good Cop car. The Transit Connect make a good Taxi. A Navigator makes a good limo.

 

 

 

This is my choice of Cop car. Just add a cage in the back for prisoners.

Transit Connect didn't make the taxi grade due to mileage...Escape Hybrids ARE holding up excellently though...hmmm, those BODY ON FRAME HYBRIDS are tough....ahem. My point is the Taurus could be developed and every bit as good if not superior.....

[battyr]

Transit Connect didn't make the taxi grade due to mileage...Escape Hybrids ARE holding up excellently though...hmmm, those BODY ON FRAME HYBRIDS are tough....ahem. My point is the Taurus could be developed and every bit as good if not superior.....

 

The TC get good mileage compared to the CV.

 

I would thing it will get an upgrade soon. 6 speed, electric power steering, etc will improve it alot.

[Deanh]

The TC get good mileage compared to the CV.

 

I would thing it will get an upgrade soon. 6 speed, electric power steering, etc will improve it alot.

19/24.....its ok, shhhh,6 speed maybe a small eco, that would be good, hybrid drivetrain even better........

Edited January 23, 2009 by Deanh

[jpd80]

A smart move would be to include a V8 AWD in the Taurus line up to compete with the Impala V8.

If made to fit, the 5.0 V8 and AWD would also be cheaper to make and sell than the EB 3.5.

 

I know Ford's intention is to replace the v8 but I still think there is a market out there for a good

V8 sedan - especially an AWD one. Imagine the fun you would have in the snow!!!!

[Deanh]

A smart move would be to include a V8 AWD in the Taurus line up to compete with the Impala V8.

If made to fit, the 5.0 V8 and AWD would also be cheaper to make and sell than the EB 3.5.

 

I know Ford's intention is to replace the v8 but I still think there is a market out there for a good

V8 sedan - especially an AWD one. Imagine the fun you would have in the snow!!!!

why, when a non boosted 3.5 will show thw CV its tailights as it sits.........CV's are NOT rockets by any means...and I don't think its high on the desire list...after all, most high speed pursuits are left in the hands of Helicopters.....

[jpd80]

why, when a non boosted 3.5 will show thw CV its tailights as it sits.........CV's are NOT rockets by any means...and I don't think its high on the desire list...after all, most high speed pursuits are left in the hands of Helicopters.....

I'm thinking retail sales Deanh, something you can get your teeth into.

While a RWD replacement is out of the question, maybe the door is open for more Taurus variations.

It's far easier for Ford to offer more D3 products to offer the retail customer, not just PDs and such.

[Deanh]

I'm thinking retail sales Deanh, something you can get your teeth into.

While a RWD replacement is out of the question, maybe the door is open for more Taurus variations.

It's far easier for Ford to offer more D3 products to offer the retail customer, not just PDs and such.

I have a gut feeling we may see an interceptor Taurus, complete with fibreglass rear seat, no carpet, heavier duty suspension/ cooling etc, that conforms to the PD's requirements....and that is based on the fact several have been sold to municipalities where they can be evaluated, critiqued and feedback sent to ford.....all Ford has to do is a few suggested adjustments ( ones they are ALREADY familiar with from 20 years of CV developement ) and voila...personally I dont think they give a rats about RWD or FWD....after all, the only sideways round the corner driving in Crown Vics we actually DO see involves a director and camera...if you get my gist. Course there are probably some law enforcement officers that rank themselves up with Schumaker....cops self worth and capacities can be pretty inflated.

[pkoko]

I think ford can not afford to have their flagship product have the negative image/perception of a police car/taxi. Ford needs to build up brand value in the Taurus name. They need it to be competitive in re-sale value. That will go out the window with PD/taxi version. With poor resale value, new car retail incentives will have to be high to attract new customers which costs ford $$$ to the majority of its volume. The new taurus actually looks like a class leading vehicle like the LX cars. You want to build on that to improve perception. After a while, you will be to sell one for $35+K and make way more money than selling one for $25-27K.

 

Ford needs to have a dedicated exterior/interior looking PD vehicle with common shared (mass produced) underpins like engine, chassis, suspension, tranny. I can see a new PD based off the ford explorer or Taurus platform but with new sheet metal that is indistinguishable from any ford product. Think of fleet cars like another brand(lower) of Ford. This way ford's overall brand perception is not reduced.

 

Bottom line: perception = retail sales and retail sales = profit.