Sub-Pay

[oser51]

I'm having a hard time understanding the changes to sub. Why would IUAW take the last remaining leverage to keep jobs in the US away from us? Was the suspension of JSP not enough? Please convince me that this is the best we can do.

[GL66]

I'm having a hard time understanding the changes to sub. Why would IUAW take the last remaining leverage to keep jobs in the US away from us? Was the suspension of JSP not enough? Please convince me that this is the best we can do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I heard they want to reduce it to 72% and those with 20+ will get 52weeks and those under will get 36weeks.

[DearbornDerek]

I heard they want to reduce it to 72% and those with 20+ will get 52weeks and those under will get 36weeks.

 

52 weeks-20+years

36 weeks-10-20

26 weeks-1-10 years

[Veritas]

I'm having a hard time understanding the changes to sub. Why would IUAW take the last remaining leverage to keep jobs in the US away from us? Was the suspension of JSP not enough? Please convince me that this is the best we can do.

 

Have you been watching TV & reading the paper? The public hates that UAW members get anything more than state unemployment when on layoff. They want it gone. If IUAW started bargaining with GM or Chrysler they definitely would have pushed to have nothing more than state unemployment. When it is gone, you are done. This is a good deal when you look at it that way. +20 years gets 52 weeks of SUB then another 52 weeks at 50%. Find me another company where you can get that.

[DearbornDerek]

Find me another company where you can get that.

 

Find me another company that lays it's employees off as much as Ford (and the big 3)...And expects them to come back to work.

Seriously...How many companies out there lay off employees 5-10-20 weeks a year?

When most companies have a layoff...it really means "your fired".

[level]

52 weeks-20+years

36 weeks-10-20

26 weeks-1-10 years

 

 

That is correct, and you must include a few other points....

 

1. Everyone starts at 0

2. Temporary layoffs do not count (unless they are used to eliminate a permanent layoff ie. every other week....however this would allow even the youngest seniority employee to make it to the 2011 contract before losing SUB and TAP)

3. SUB and TAP are improved to allow other income to be earned without reducing their benefit even if state benefits are reduced from such.

 

It is all about getting us through the sales decline while not bleeding every dime of extra cash we still have on JSP and ending up with no money for product investment.

 

With a reduction in sales forecast to 9 million we must halt our cash burn and invest in US product. JSP was a huge cash burn that was designed to keep work in the USA by making Ford pay for the unemployed workers and forcing their hand to keep work here versus outsourcing...........in this economy it had the exact opposite effect.......the cost of the program (along with public sentiment thanks to republicrooks) was robbing us of the very money we needed to invest to get new product....ironically the reverse of it's intended design.

Edited February 28, 2009 by level

[steve morris]

That is correct, and you must include a few other points....

 

1. Everyone starts at 0

2. Temporary layoffs do not count (unless they are used to eliminate a permanent layoff ie. every other week....however this would allow even the youngest seniority employee to make it to the 2011 contract before losing SUB and TAP)

3. SUB and TAP are improved to allow other income to be earned without reducing their benefit even if state benefits are reduced from such.

 

It is all about getting us through the sales decline while not bleeding every dime of extra cash we still have on JSP and ending up with no money for product investment.

 

With a reduction in sales forecast to 9 million we must halt our cash burn and invest in US product. JSP was a huge cash burn that was designed to keep work in the USA by making Ford pay for the unemployed workers and forcing their hand to keep work here versus outsourcing...........in this economy it had the exact opposite effect.......the cost of the program (along with public sentiment thanks to republicrooks) was robbing us of the very money we needed to invest to get new product....ironically the reverse of it's intended design.

 

And that's why these Free Trade Agreements must be changed. Even though the company was paying for our workers who were laid off, they still took jobs to third world countries and made profit. When you can pay someone $.50 a day in a third world country, nothing will stop the bleeding!

[nextup]

And that's why these Free Trade Agreements must be changed. Even though the company was paying for our workers who were laid off, they still took jobs to third world countries and made profit. When you can pay someone $.50 a day in a third world country, nothing will stop the bleeding!

The only thing that can stop the bleeding is when people stop or can't buy their stuff anymore, then we can watch them bleed.

[bleu]

That is correct, and you must include a few other points....

 

1. Everyone starts at 0

2. Temporary layoffs do not count (unless they are used to eliminate a permanent layoff ie. every other week....however this would allow even the youngest seniority employee to make it to the 2011 contract before losing SUB and TAP)

3. SUB and TAP are improved to allow other income to be earned without reducing their benefit even if state benefits are reduced from such.

 

It is all about getting us through the sales decline while not bleeding every dime of extra cash we still have on JSP and ending up with no money for product investment.

 

With a reduction in sales forecast to 9 million we must halt our cash burn and invest in US product. JSP was a huge cash burn that was designed to keep work in the USA by making Ford pay for the unemployed workers and forcing their hand to keep work here versus outsourcing...........in this economy it had the exact opposite effect.......the cost of the program (along with public sentiment thanks to republicrooks) was robbing us of the very money we needed to invest to get new product....ironically the reverse of it's intended design.

Didn't Ron Gettlefinger just tell congress that we could all work for free and it wouldn't affect the bottom line? Was he lying then, or now?

[DearbornDerek]

They don't expect you to come back to work,you can quit....................

 

:reading:

[damagedone37]

That is correct, and you must include a few other points....

 

1. Everyone starts at 0

2. Temporary layoffs do not count (unless they are used to eliminate a permanent layoff ie. every other week....however this would allow even the youngest seniority employee to make it to the 2011 contract before losing SUB and TAP)

3. SUB and TAP are improved to allow other income to be earned without reducing their benefit even if state benefits are reduced from such.

 

It is all about getting us through the sales decline while not bleeding every dime of extra cash we still have on JSP and ending up with no money for product investment.

 

With a reduction in sales forecast to 9 million we must halt our cash burn and invest in US product. JSP was a huge cash burn that was designed to keep work in the USA by making Ford pay for the unemployed workers and forcing their hand to keep work here versus outsourcing...........in this economy it had the exact opposite effect.......the cost of the program (along with public sentiment thanks to republicrooks) was robbing us of the very money we needed to invest to get new product....ironically the reverse of it's intended design.

Where did you hear this?

[standup]

Have you been watching TV & reading the paper? The public hates that UAW members get anything more than state unemployment when on layoff. They want it gone. If IUAW started bargaining with GM or Chrysler they definitely would have pushed to have nothing more than state unemployment. When it is gone, you are done. This is a good deal when you look at it that way. +20 years gets 52 weeks of SUB then another 52 weeks at 50%. Find me another company where you can get that.

I don't know why everyone cares what the public thinks about us so much, whether we pass this or not, they will not like us any more or less. Most of the public has no idea what they are talking about and feed off the press. This SUB deal is bad, the people who will be on the streets first have the least amount of time, and those who will still be working and will not need the SUB have the most. The IUAW have created another way to divide us as union brothers/sisters by not giving everyone equal amounts. In the past our brothers/sisters fought to get what we have, not to have it all thrown away. It is a sad day for the unions.

[Hobbitt]

My take on all this is.......We are ONE UNION, so why are we creating a 3 tiered SUB system ???? Its another way to divide our Union bros/sisters and the IUAW either didn't see it or did not care. I have to assume that they did not see it. This all goes back to the COAs that some , including myself, yelled and screamed about to no avail. When do we finally stan up and say "No more" we live and die together.........as a UNION !!!

[rickf77]

That is correct, and you must include a few other points....

 

1. Everyone starts at 0

2. Temporary layoffs do not count (unless they are used to eliminate a permanent layoff ie. every other week....however this would allow even the youngest seniority employee to make it to the 2011 contract before losing SUB and TAP)

3. SUB and TAP are improved to allow other income to be earned without reducing their benefit even if state benefits are reduced from such.

 

It is all about getting us through the sales decline while not bleeding every dime of extra cash we still have on JSP and ending up with no money for product investment.

 

With a reduction in sales forecast to 9 million we must halt our cash burn and invest in US product. JSP was a huge cash burn that was designed to keep work in the USA by making Ford pay for the unemployed workers and forcing their hand to keep work here versus outsourcing...........in this economy it had the exact opposite effect.......the cost of the program (along with public sentiment thanks to republicrooks) was robbing us of the very money we needed to invest to get new product....ironically the reverse of it's intended design.

 

 

 

You are right in that everyone starts at 0 but you might want to check the letter of understanding on this issue.

 

1. Your sub benefit may be reduced by an amount equal to the State Unemployment Compensation benefit that would otherwise be entitled to if he or she was unemployed.

[damagedone37]

That is correct, and you must include a few other points....

 

1. Everyone starts at 0

2. Temporary layoffs do not count (unless they are used to eliminate a permanent layoff ie. every other week....however this would allow even the youngest seniority employee to make it to the 2011 contract before losing SUB and TAP)

3. SUB and TAP are improved to allow other income to be earned without reducing their benefit even if state benefits are reduced from such.

 

It is all about getting us through the sales decline while not bleeding every dime of extra cash we still have on JSP and ending up with no money for product investment.

 

With a reduction in sales forecast to 9 million we must halt our cash burn and invest in US product. JSP was a huge cash burn that was designed to keep work in the USA by making Ford pay for the unemployed workers and forcing their hand to keep work here versus outsourcing...........in this economy it had the exact opposite effect.......the cost of the program (along with public sentiment thanks to republicrooks) was robbing us of the very money we needed to invest to get new product....ironically the reverse of it's intended design.

 

 

ON THE ISSUE OF TLO's YOU'RE WRONG. I talked to my bargaining rep tonight and he said every TLO layoff week counts as a SUB credit.

Edited March 2, 2009 by damagedone37

[lquidspine]

ON THE ISSUE OF TLO's YOU'RE WRONG. I talked to my bargaining rep tonight and he said every TLO layoff week counts as a SUB credit.

Only at the six plants that recognize alternate work patterns, just like Level said basically those plants that have rolling down weeks instead of shift reductions.

 

I hate this simply because I work at a plant that added a third shift at a time that it was not needed, however I will say that because of this some lower seniority employees will use less SUB weeks because they are working sometimes instead of always being on ILO and using all of there SUB weeks.

 

I still hate the tiered system with SUB but at least this might lengthen or prolong lower seniority employee's chances of having to use their TAP(that ass).

[firedude26]

ON THE ISSUE OF TLO's YOU'RE WRONG. I talked to my bargaining rep tonight and he said every TLO layoff week counts as a SUB credit.

 

well here we go with no one really knows the truth, we was told the other. no temp layoffs count. So who has the right answer? im sure we will find out after they passs this shit.

[longball]

I'm an old timer but...I believe we have always had a tiered SUB program...It's only had 2 tiers but it was still tiered. Once the company stopped listing your weeks on your paycheck....unless you are chronicly laid off,,,,you probably didn't even know how many weeks you had.

[newone]

That is correct, and you must include a few other points....

 

1. Everyone starts at 0

2. Temporary layoffs do not count (unless they are used to eliminate a permanent layoff ie. every other week....however this would allow even the youngest seniority employee to make it to the 2011 contract before losing SUB and TAP)

3. SUB and TAP are improved to allow other income to be earned without reducing their benefit even if state benefits are reduced from such.

 

It is all about getting us through the sales decline while not bleeding every dime of extra cash we still have on JSP and ending up with no money for product investment.

 

With a reduction in sales forecast to 9 million we must halt our cash burn and invest in US product. JSP was a huge cash burn that was designed to keep work in the USA by making Ford pay for the unemployed workers and forcing their hand to keep work here versus outsourcing...........in this economy it had the exact opposite effect.......the cost of the program (along with public sentiment thanks to republicrooks) was robbing us of the very money we needed to invest to get new product....ironically the reverse of it's intended design.

my whole problem with this is almost no one with 20+ years will ever see jsp. . why arent we giving the people who will need it most the soft landing? and why are they taking a dollar /hour away from me when millionare row still exists???

[rickf77]

I'm an old timer but...I believe we have always had a tiered SUB program...It's only had 2 tiers but it was still tiered. Once the company stopped listing your weeks on your paycheck....unless you are chronicly laid off,,,,you probably didn't even know how many weeks you had.

 

 

Here is the old agreement on sub-pay

 

Artilcle III Section 1 Volume Related Layoffs

 

An Employee, with one or more years Seniority, at work on or after November 19, 2007 will be granted full job security from volume declines, with the exception of up to 48 weeks of qualifying layoff during the term of this agreement.

 

So people with 20+ years get 4 addtional weeks

People with 10-19 years lose 8 weeks

and those of us at the bottom who will more than likely be laid off for an extended period lose 22 weeks

[damagedone37]

well here we go with no one really knows the truth, we was told the other. no temp layoffs count. So who has the right answer? im sure we will find out after they passs this shit.

 

No doubt

[Len_A]

Have you been watching TV & reading the paper? The public hates that UAW members get anything more than state unemployment when on layoff. They want it gone. If IUAW started bargaining with GM or Chrysler they definitely would have pushed to have nothing more than state unemployment. When it is gone, you are done. This is a good deal when you look at it that way. +20 years gets 52 weeks of SUB then another 52 weeks at 50%. Find me another company where you can get that.

 

I don't know why everyone cares what the public thinks about us so much, whether we pass this or not, they will not like us any more or less. Most of the public has no idea what they are talking about and feed off the press. This SUB deal is bad, the people who will be on the streets first have the least amount of time, and those who will still be working and will not need the SUB have the most. The IUAW have created another way to divide us as union brothers/sisters by not giving everyone equal amounts. In the past our brothers/sisters fought to get what we have, not to have it all thrown away. It is a sad day for the unions.

You don't know why people care what the public thinks, and they feed off the press? Well, bully for you. I have news for ya, and anyone who agrees with ya - Veritas is 100% on point. The majority of the public can't stand the Big Three and the UAW for the very reason Veritas said - they hate the fact that they don't have something you got, and I'll tell you, it's been helping cost GM, Ford and Chrysler sales, especially the last eight years. The fact that the transplant factory employees don't have a benefit UAW members have had, and have also refused to unionize themselves, just adds fuel to the fire. The public feeds off the press? Give me a fucking break. With all the Internet blogs and forums, the press is feeding off the public, which is mostly nonunion and a good portion vehemently anti-union. It used to be I personally knew maybe two or three people, and none of them living here, that would touch a Big Three product because of UAW labor. I live in Westland, MI, and now I know three or four you live in my subdivision that won't touch a GM, Ford or Chrysler product because of their perception of the UAW, and two of these assholes work for suppliers. Around the country, through my professional contacts and my car detailing hobby, I know a couple of dozen people that are in the same group, and a couple of them called me over the weekend to get my spin on all this shit, and both of them told me that they put the 2010 Taurus SHO on their shopping list (supposedly, because I don't believe these gas bags) just because it looks like this might pass. If one of the car detailing web sites come back up, I'll direct you over to the threads where some of these Toyota fanboys gush over everything Toyota, and rank against the Big Three, ESPECIALLY the UAW layoff benefits (jobs bank/GEN and SUB pay) and COLA. They rank about them the last year, even more than the pension and the retiree medical, because supposedly the last contract took care of no more pension and no more new hires (if they ever hire again) getting retiree medical benefits.

 

You don't care what the public thinks, like I said - bully for you. Other people are too fucking scared of the what the future might bring to not care. The anti-union and anti-Big Three members of the public might be assholes (forget "might be", they are), but they're either customers or potential customers, and Ford needs their business. Period. And if you saw the make up of Obama's auto team, and what they drive, and the shit that both Rahm Emmanuel said over the weekend, and what Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said before that, you'd fucking realize we have no political strength, and no pull, with Republicans or Democrats.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Len_A

[lquidspine]

Here is the old agreement on sub-pay

 

Artilcle III Section 1 Volume Related Layoffs

 

An Employee, with one or more years Seniority, at work on or after November 19, 2007 will be granted full job security from volume declines, with the exception of up to 48 weeks of qualifying layoff during the term of this agreement.

The Article you cite is page 11 in Volume I, and it concerns Dues and Assessments.

I even checked Volume III which is the benefits portion of the contract, what contract are you citing ?

[longball]

Here is the old agreement on sub-pay

 

Artilcle III Section 1 Volume Related Layoffs

 

An Employee, with one or more years Seniority, at work on or after November 19, 2007 will be granted full job security from volume declines, with the exception of up to 48 weeks of qualifying layoff during the term of this agreement.

 

So people with 20+ years get 4 addtional weeks

People with 10-19 years lose 8 weeks

and those of us at the bottom who will more than likely be laid off for an extended period lose 22 weeks

 

Maybe I'm too far removed from the SUB system but I thought the tiers were 52weeks or 104 weeks of benefits, depending on your seniority.

 

Also...for "those of us on the bottom"... these BENEFITS are EARNED...put in your time and you get more security.

Edited March 2, 2009 by longball

[rickf77]

The Article you cite is page 11 in Volume I, and it concerns Dues and Assessments.

I even checked Volume III which is the benefits portion of the contract, what contract are you citing ?

 

 

Volume 3 page 27 bottom. Article III Section 1