Hybrid and Plug-in C-MAX in Europe in 2013

[battyr]

Ford’s Valencia plant in Spain will build the company’s first hybrid models for European customers with two advanced technology derivatives of the new Ford C-MAX compact multi-activity model to be launched in 2013: a full Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV), and a Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV).

 

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/05/fordcmax-20100510.html#more

[FordBuyer]

I still wish the 5 seat C-Max was coming here to the states. A mistake by Ford in my view. I know the 7 seat C-Max is coming here, but Ford has the production room to bring both to either MAP or LAP. In this new reset economy with higher gas prices, post high oil peak, and new CAFE rules only a few years away, I really feel there is a strong market coming for compact station wagons like the C-Max. VW offers small wagons to the American market. Ford should also with its European heritage. Canadians alone will buy thousands of them and younger people in America coming up will be looking at them more than they ever did in the past when oil was cheap and not at its peak yet.

[NickF1011]

VW offers small wagons to the American market.

 

And how many do they actually sell?

[ausrutherford]

If they are getting it, we will probably as well.

[jpd80]

And how many do they actually sell?

 

 

While that's true, the fact that the C-max is also based on C1 platform is a huge bonus to Ford globally and unlike VW Ford has many more dealerships to push niche products to buyers. We only have to look at the Transit Connect to se how a quirky little vehicle has a place in the American market, i think the same applies to a lot of other niche products. Now that Ford is filling all the volume product slots, Ford can now turn its attention to the value adding fringe buyers....

[Fords#1Fan]

Nevermind

Edited May 11, 2010 by Fords#1Fan

[ausrutherford]

While that's true, the fact that the C-max is also based on C1 platform is a huge bonus to Ford globally and unlike VW Ford has many more dealerships to push niche products to buyers. We only have to look at the Transit Connect to se how a quirky little vehicle has a place in the American market, i think the same applies to a lot of other niche products. Now that Ford is filling all the volume product slots, Ford can now turn its attention to the value adding fringe buyers....

 

I also suspect that importing from Spain is the "test" just like the TC. Theyll test it to see how it does and then if successful, they will build it here.

 

This also confirms a Hybrid Focus and plug-in which I had heard awhile back.

[ibinubu12]

If it makes you guys feel better, it was engineered in Dearborn. It isn't as foreign as it looks.

[mackinaw]

Interesting that GM has just cancelled the planned 7 passenger Orlando. Mark Phelan, of the Detroit Free Press said yesterday, "By dropping the Orlando, GM may have boosted Ford's chances of selling a profitable number of Grand C-Maxes. Chevrolet thinks it has a full house of family vehicles in its existing Malibu, Equinox and Traverse models."

 

Full article here:

 

http://www.freep.com/article/20100509/COL14/5090493/1322/Small-minivan-plans-shrink

[rkisler]

I also suspect that importing from Spain is the "test" just like the TC. Theyll test it to see how it does and then if successful, they will build it here.

 

This also confirms a Hybrid Focus and plug-in which I had heard awhile back.

 

I don't see any imports from Spain to the U.S. The Grand C-Max will be made here in WAP. There are no plans for the 5-seat C-Max.

 

The new HEV and PHEV aren't really a secret. Ford has announced a new hybrid transmission in Van Dyke, and also announced lithium battery packs at Rawsonville. I'm assuming both of these are in support of a new hybrid system for the C2. I would think one of the prime applications would be the Grand C-Max and of course the Kuga/Escape. I'm also assuming these components would be shipped from Michigan to Europe for assembly into the C-Max there. This is a case where the addition of the U.S. into a world platform will benefit Europe by giving them a powertrain application that they would not have engineered from the get-go.

[ausrutherford]

I don't see any imports from Spain to the U.S. The Grand C-Max will be made here in WAP. There are no plans for the 5-seat C-Max.

 

The new HEV and PHEV aren't really a secret. Ford has announced a new hybrid transmission in Van Dyke, and also announced lithium battery packs at Rawsonville. I'm assuming both of these are in support of a new hybrid system for the C2. I would think one of the prime applications would be the Grand C-Max and of course the Kuga/Escape. I'm also assuming these components would be shipped from Michigan to Europe for assembly into the C-Max there. This is a case where the addition of the U.S. into a world platform will benefit Europe by giving them a powertrain application that they would not have engineered from the get-go.

 

Ford confirmed that they will build the C-max is Spain for exportation to the US...

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/10/confirmed-ford-to-build-7-seat-c-max-in-spain-for-export-to-u-s/

[2b2]

seems strange to me too

but I'll have to believe it since it's also on Media.FORD.com

[rkisler]

seems strange to me too

but I'll have to believe it since it's also on Media.FORD.com

 

Yes, I just read this also. It looks like Spain is single-source for C-Max and Grand C-Max. And the wording of the announcement leaves me a little confused. The Grand C-Max will be coming to the U.S. a year after it is introduced in Europe. And there is no mention at all of a HEV or PHEV for the U.S. model (Ford refers to petrol exports and says the 5-seat HEV/PHEV is exclusive to Europe, but doesn't mention HEV/PHEV for US).

 

I assume that the sourcing decision had a lot to do with volume projections by market and I'm going to further assume that U.S. volume projections were not very high. And since Louisville will evidently be sole source for Escape/Kuga, it might have made more sense to keep the models in the markets where they are strongest and avoid dual tooling.

 

If Ford doesn't have HEV/PHEV for the Grand C-Max in the U.S., I think it's a huge mistake. This segment is not exactly hot, but something like a high mileage HEV/PHEV could really set Ford apart.

[ausrutherford]

Yes, I just read this also. It looks like Spain is single-source for C-Max and Grand C-Max. And the wording of the announcement leaves me a little confused. The Grand C-Max will be coming to the U.S. a year after it is introduced in Europe. And there is no mention at all of a HEV or PHEV for the U.S. model (Ford refers to petrol exports and says the 5-seat HEV/PHEV is exclusive to Europe, but doesn't mention HEV/PHEV for US).

 

I assume that the sourcing decision had a lot to do with volume projections by market and I'm going to further assume that U.S. volume projections were not very high. And since Louisville will evidently be sole source for Escape/Kuga, it might have made more sense to keep the models in the markets where they are strongest and avoid dual tooling.

 

If Ford doesn't have HEV/PHEV for the Grand C-Max in the U.S., I think it's a huge mistake. This segment is not exactly hot, but something like a high mileage HEV/PHEV could really set Ford apart.

 

I dont see why they wouldnt bring both the Hybrid and plug in here since it would be the same system, it would also raise the profit.

 

Also, Im not so sure if making the Kuga here and exporting it to EU would work anymore with the dollar rising and the Euro crashing, maybe Ford is reviewing that.

[Harley Lover]

If Ford doesn't have HEV/PHEV for the Grand C-Max in the U.S., I think it's a huge mistake. This segment is not exactly hot, but something like a high mileage HEV/PHEV could really set Ford apart.

I had been thinking that the Grand C-Max hybrid was going to be the "white space" vehicle to which Ford have made reference in the past. If they aren't going to bring it to the U.S., what could the "white space" hybrid be? Plug in Focus?

Edited May 11, 2010 by Harley Lover

[ibinubu12]

It is coming to the US. The US supplier base is mobilized

[03 LS]

It is coming to the US. The US supplier base is mobilized

Are they mobilized for Grand C-Max P/HEV? Or for Focus P/HEV, Escape(Kuga) P/HEV? We know those will be produced in US.

[RichardJensen]

I assume that the sourcing decision had a lot to do with volume projections by market and I'm going to further assume that U.S. volume projections were not very high. And since Louisville will evidently be sole source for Escape/Kuga, it might have made more sense to keep the models in the markets where they are strongest and avoid dual tooling.

 

If Ford doesn't have HEV/PHEV for the Grand C-Max in the U.S., I think it's a huge mistake. This segment is not exactly hot, but something like a high mileage HEV/PHEV could really set Ford apart.

Sounds about right. I might also add that I expect the euro to stay weak vs. the dollar near/mid term.

 

It was, IMO, overrated against the dollar for much of the last half of this decade, given the political instability underpinning it.

 

--

 

Also, I'm guessing the margin on the C-Max is tight enough that the margin cutting involved in selling a PHEV/BEV would narrow it too far for comfort in Dearborn. My opinion is the micro 7 seater market is not a high margin market---I don't see Ford selling a lot of C-Max Limiteds with BAMRs....

 

-potentially- Ford could move production here, but I don't know that the C-Max will sell well enough. I really don't think there's much of a market for this class of vehicle (parents are waiting longer to have kids, thus many new car buyers are in the market for larger, more expensive vehicles, by the time they need 6/7 seats).

Edited May 11, 2010 by RichardJensen

[rkisler]

Sounds about right. I might also add that I expect the euro to stay weak vs. the dollar near/mid term.

 

It was, IMO, overrated against the dollar for much of the last half of this decade, given the political instability underpinning it.

 

--

 

Also, I'm guessing the margin on the C-Max is tight enough that the margin cutting involved in selling a PHEV/BEV would narrow it too far for comfort in Dearborn. My opinion is the micro 7 seater market is not a high margin market---I don't see Ford selling a lot of C-Max Limiteds with BAMRs....

 

-potentially- Ford could move production here, but I don't know that the C-Max will sell well enough. I really don't think there's much of a market for this class of vehicle (parents are waiting longer to have kids, thus many new car buyers are in the market for larger, more expensive vehicles, by the time they need 6/7 seats).

 

Just to put a number around it, installing C-Max production in MAP would probably cost in the neighborhood of $100-200 million. I'm taking into consideration that MAP is flexible, but virtually all of the body stampings are unique from the Focus. So, if the volume estimates are modest, and the landed cost just a bit higher coming from Spain, then the financial equation wouldn't favor local U.S. assembly. Even with all the cross-shipping of hybrid components. But....if gas were to skyrocket, it's nice to know that MAP could handle this vehicle if necessary.

 

I'm still thinking that Ford will have HEV/PHEV on the Grand C-Max in the U.S., but they didn't quite say so in the media release because of timing issues. FoE has to talk about the C- and Grand C-Max 'cause it's going to be in production in the Fall. But Ford U.S. has not made any announcements on the overall HEV/PHEV strategy for the C2's and has some time to do so, particularly as the Grand C-Max is one year follow source and the HEV/PHEV also come later..

[rkisler]

I dont see why they wouldnt bring both the Hybrid and plug in here since it would be the same system, it would also raise the profit.

 

Also, Im not so sure if making the Kuga here and exporting it to EU would work anymore with the dollar rising and the Euro crashing, maybe Ford is reviewing that.

 

Even with the lowered Euro, I can still guess that production costs are lower in the U.S., and maybe even landed cost delivered to Europe (but I have no recent data).

 

I agree with your comment on HEV/PHEV. I think the fact it wasn't mentioned in the Ford announcement (and even implied it wasn't part of the plan) was a matter of announcement timing as mentioned in my other post. And also the fact that this announcement was mainly geared toward Europe and telling Spain how progressive they'd been with new technology and exports to the U.S. (I don't think they've ever exported to the U.S. -- IIRC the original Fiesta 30 years ago came from Koln?).

[silvrsvt]

Even with the lowered Euro, I can still guess that production costs are lower in the U.S., and maybe even landed cost delivered to Europe (but I have no recent data).

 

 

Considering the fact that the Escape sold nearly 175K units alone in 2009, I'd say the extra 40-80K units of the Kuga would be cheaper to make in the US then having another line setup in Europe.

 

 

[bzcat]

And how many do they actually sell?

 

VW sold 22k Jetta wagon in the US last year. It's not a big number but enough volume for VW to justify offering 4 different drivetrain options (gas manual, gas auto, TDI manual, TDI auto) and several different trim levels. It helps that Mexico is the worldwide manufacturing base for Golf wagon (aka Jetta wagon in the US) so it is relatively easy for VW to keep offering the car in the US even if it is not a big seller. But boy, they do earn lots of loyalty points with those wagon owners since it is the only traditional wagon for sale in that size and price range in the US.

 

I think the fact that Ford will import the Grand C-Max from Spain is not that surprising. The advantage of having almost identical car around the world is that you can utilize this kind of synergy. It's a low risk way for Ford to test the water on something different. Hopefully this is a sign that we may be other variants of Focus fully imported down the road (e.g. RS model or the Capri or the convertible etc).

 

Of course the other major point to highlight here is that Ford will also be sending cars to Europe from US (Kuga, 4 door Focus) so that should somewhat mitigate whatever currency issues down the road... If the Euro rises, Kuga/4 door Focus becomes more profitable. If the US$ rises, Grand C-Max becomes more profitable and vice verse. If you control the volume right, the risks should just about cancel each other out.