akirby Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 Given current Ranger and Sport Trac sales and sales of the Tacoma, Frontier, Canyon, Colorado, etc. combined there is no doubt that the market exists, albeit not a huge market. I think Ford could garner 100k-120k sales easily if they updated the current Ranger with new engines (2.0L Focus engine as the base, 3.5L as the top engine), new styling and new electronics. And I don't think it would significantly cannibalize F150 sales to do it. I think it's important to have such a truck in the stable in case gas skyrockets again, regardless of the current market (assuming of course it can be made at some profit now). However, that doesn't make it an airtight business case. You have to consider the platform and whether it has to be updated and if so at what cost. And where to build it? That may not be enough volume to sustain a separate factory. And why does everyone compare the Ranger V6 to the F150 V6? You have to compare the Ranger I4 (22/27) to the F150 V6 (16/23). That's why we need a small 4 cylinder truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 Why do you (and others) insist on comparing the fuel efficiency of Ford's current state-of-the-art F-150 powertrains with the 1997 vintage V6 powertrain offered in the current Ranger? No one here is arguing that Ford should make a new Ranger with the same old 4.0L SOHC Cologne V6! We know current Ranger sales aren't good, and the lack of a current, V6 powertrain; along with lack of a crew cab option, are at the top of the list of reasons why! Go re-read my post I said 2010 F-150, not the 2011 and that is with a V8 Engine in it! Why is it so inconceivable to you that the same Ford that got 23 mpg out of the latest F150 could get 26 or 27 out of a 3.5 or 2.0EB Ranger? Heck, even the older 2.3 Duratech I4 mated to a 5-speed manual from 1989 manages 27 mpg in a 2wd Ranger! To think that given the latest technology, Ford could not improve power substantially, while keeping the same 27 mpg, is absurd! Your talking out of both sides of your mouth now...you said you owned a 4x4 F-150...I was comparing apple with apples...the best I could...you can only get a 4x4 Ranger with a V6 and I used the 4.6L V8 (assuming this since it had a 6 speed and I think the 5.4L only has 5 speed?) in a 2010 F-150 4x4 The best 4x4 MPG you can get is in a Ford product is an Escape (gas engine)...though I thought the Escape system was AWD and not 4x4 like it was in real trucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 And why does everyone compare the Ranger V6 to the F150 V6? You have to compare the Ranger I4 (22/27) to the F150 V6 (16/23). That's why we need a small 4 cylinder truck. Because the I4 Ranger doesn't come with 4x4...and a Transit Connect can do every thing a I4 Ranger is bought for in fleets... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 (edited) Go re-read my post I said 2010 F-150, not the 2011 and that is with a V8 Engine in it! Which is also light years ahead of the 4.0 SOHC found in the Ranger. My point remains valid. Your talking out of both sides of your mouth now...you said you owned a 4x4 F-150...I was comparing apple with apples...the best I could...you can only get a 4x4 Ranger with a V6 and I used the 4.6L V8 (assuming this since it had a 6 speed and I think the 5.4L only has 5 speed?) in a 2010 F-150 4x4 The best 4x4 MPG you can get is in a Ford product is an Escape (gas engine)...though I thought the Escape system was AWD and not 4x4 like it was in real trucks OK. Now I'm confused (seriously). Let me set the record straight on what I own/drive, and then you can try again with the point you were trying to make. My current main daily driver (since 2003) has been my 1992 Explorer sport 4x4. My alternate daily driver is a 1990 2wd Ranger with a turbo engine from a 1988 Thunderbird turbocoupe. I also own a 1995 F-150 4x4 that stays in the garage until it's extra capabilities are required (meaning that it doesn't go anywhere without something in the bed or a trailer in tow). Also, it wasn't too long ago that you could buy a 4-banger Ranger with a 4-cylinder. Ford dropped that model because so few were sold. I, however, found the 4-banger to be surprisingly adequate in a 4x4 given a 4.10 axle ratio. My guess is that Ford probably doesn't sell many 4x4 F-150s with the new V6 either (if they're even offering it). Edited October 19, 2010 by Sevensecondsuv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 A Transit Connect can do every thing a I4 Ranger is bought for in fleets... Fleets, maybe. Retails buyers - that's funny! And yes, I4 Rangers are sold to retails buyers. The XLT 2wd supercab with the I4 is likely one of the most common models sold to retail buyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 19, 2010 Author Share Posted October 19, 2010 Looks more like Ford does not want to continue selling trucks under $20,000. Rather than looking at whether there is a market there or not for T6 Ranger , perhaps Ford has decided to protect it own F150's dual cab sales, not all of those folks need to tow 9,000 lbs and Ford knows it. If they offer T6 Ranger dual cab, it could cut a swathe through those very profitable sales as people begin to realize that they don't need as big a truck for what they actually use and substitute F150 for T6 Ranger. This is Ford protecting an existing market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 Because the I4 Ranger doesn't come with 4x4...and a Transit Connect can do every thing a I4 Ranger is bought for in fleets... But people who want smaller trucks for fuel efficiency and/or daily drivers don't need 4x4. And you'd have to compare a 3.5L Ranger 4x4 with a 5.0L F150 4x4. The Ranger should still get considerably better fuel mileage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 This is Ford protecting an existing market. Which I absolutely understand and agree with from a business standpoint with one exception: what happens if gas goes to $4/gallon again? Will F150 sales drop like a rock or will the new V6 be good enough to stop that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 Which I absolutely understand and agree with from a business standpoint with one exception: what happens if gas goes to $4/gallon again? Will F150 sales drop like a rock or will the new V6 be good enough to stop that? If people aren't buying F150's when gas hits $4/gallon, my guess is that they wouldn't be buying Rangers either. When gas hits $4/gallon, people will be buying small economical cars because they didn't need a truck to begin with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 (edited) This is Ford protecting an existing market. While you can't blame Ford for trying to maximize profit (we are all capitalists!), this is the EXACT same thinking and approach that got them into the near-bankruptcy disaster they just finished crawling out of. EXACTLY the same! Sacrifice other products and markets at the feet of the F-150 profit gods.... Last time it was sedans, this time it's compact pickups! Edited October 19, 2010 by Sevensecondsuv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted October 19, 2010 Share Posted October 19, 2010 If people aren't buying F150's when gas hits $4/gallon, my guess is that they wouldn't be buying Rangers either. When gas hits $4/gallon, people will be buying small economical cars because they didn't need a truck to begin with. Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marginal Economist Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 While you can't blame Ford for trying to maximize profit (we are all capitalists!), this is the EXACT same thinking and approach that got them into the near-bankruptcy disaster they just finished crawling out of. EXACTLY the same! Sacrifice other products and markets at the feet of the F-150 profit gods.... Last time it was sedans, this time it's compact pickups! No it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Fleets, maybe. Retails buyers - that's funny! And yes, I4 Rangers are sold to retails buyers. The XLT 2wd supercab with the I4 is likely one of the most common models sold to retail buyers. I'd like see you back that up with some numbers...just like those $9999 Rangers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Which I absolutely understand and agree with from a business standpoint with one exception: what happens if gas goes to $4/gallon again? Will F150 sales drop like a rock or will the new V6 be good enough to stop that? There will always be a market for the F-150...even with $4 gas. Keep in mind the biggest reason F-150 sales have gone up over the past 10-15 years is because people who really don't need trucks could afford them because of cheap gas. I think part of the reason Ranger sold so well 12 years ago was lack of other choices in products. The Explorer sold like gangbusters because there wasn't really anything else like it on the market for a while and started losing sales because of increased competition in the market. I'm sure that many Ranger owners went to Escapes and Edges over the years, because they are better car all around for driving and still offered the option to haul stuff when needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 I just want a daily driver truck that comfortably seats 4, has 4x4 for winter driving, and still has a outside bed I can throw junk in, for that application, the T6 would be a no-brainer over an F-150. Bang on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 There will always be a market for the F-150...even with $4 gas. Keep in mind the biggest reason F-150 sales have gone up over the past 10-15 years is because people who really don't need trucks could afford them because of cheap gas. I think part of the reason Ranger sold so well 12 years ago was lack of other choices in products. The Explorer sold like gangbusters because there wasn't really anything else like it on the market for a while and started losing sales because of increased competition in the market. I'm sure that many Ranger owners went to Escapes and Edges over the years, because they are better car all around for driving and still offered the option to haul stuff when needed. The reason F150 (and other full size truck) sales have gone up over the past 10-15 years was the introduction of the SuperCrew cab in 2001 and the 1997 SuperCab which was the first to have a comfortable back seat and rear door(s). You cant even buy a regular cab Lariat any more like the '90s. Even SVT knew to build the Raptor on a SuperCab unlike the old Lightning which were regular cab only. Cabs that can seat 5-6 people in comfort made all the difference opening the personal use pickup market. When Ranger was introduced the small truck market was owned by Toyota and Nissan. Ranger quickly took the sales title and held it for years. The competition went mid-size and Ford did not follow. Explorer established itself in the early 90's as a luxury version (if less capable) of the 4-door small suv...a market Jeep pioneered years earlier with the Cherokee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 I'm sure that many Ranger owners went to Escapes and Edges over the years, because they are better car all around for driving and still offered the option to haul stuff when needed. I'm sure these people went to Escapes and Edges because those two vehicles were new designs with 4 doors. Something you can't get with the Ranger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 I'd like see you back that up with some numbers...just like those $9999 Rangers... Go look up used Rangers for sale on Autotrader or Cars.com There will be plenty of 2wd supercab 4 cylinder XLT models made in the last 5 years that clearly were not fleet trucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 I'm sure that many Ranger owners went to Escapes and Edges over the years, because they are better car all around for driving and still offered the option to haul stuff when needed. That probably happened to a limited extent (heck, I've been known haul around engines in the back of my Explorer!), but for a lot of tasks, a pickup truck is the optimal solution and a wagon just isn't. Lately, I've been hauling around axles, t-cases, transmissions and other parts in the back of my Ranger for my 1995 F-150 rebuild.. This wouldn't work so well with a wagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 That probably happened to a limited extent (heck, I've been known haul around engines in the back of my Explorer!), but for a lot of tasks, a pickup truck is the optimal solution and a wagon just isn't. Lately, I've been hauling around axles, t-cases, transmissions and other parts in the back of my Ranger for my 1995 F-150 rebuild.. This wouldn't work so well with a wagon. I know where you coming from, but your approaching the problem directly by what suits your needs, not the overall market place....and thats the important thing. My thoughts are that if you really need to do work on a day in day out basis your far better off suited to getting a V6 F-150 over a Ranger anyways. If your a recreational truck user...well your kinda SOL, but at the same time you really don't need a pickup bed EVERY DAY. Its a convenience. My old man has a 98 Ranger V6 Super Cab and the truck part of it is used maybe 6-12 times (if that) a year for hauling stuff. Its a nice to have thing, but like people said before, they wouldn't trade that for MPG once gas gets around 4 bucks a gallon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 My thoughts are that if you really need to do work on a day in day out basis your far better off suited to getting a V6 F-150 over a Ranger anyways. The I4 Ranger is a lot more capable than people give it credit for. 1000 lbs or less in the bed and I've never missed a bigger engine or heavier rear springs. More than that and I do reach for the F-150 or a trailer behind the Explorer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainp4 Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I know it's not what you're looking for, but a small utility trailer hooked to escape, explorer, etc, would really help you out for your occasional need a truck days. That said, I'm in the same camp as you. There has to be a way to make a smaller truck than the F150 work in North America, and if they're worried about the sales crown, call it F100 if they have to. Hell, I drive a superduty every day and I still think there should be a truck below F150. I had one at one point, but I don't know, it's too big to take off road, too small to do any real work consistently and reliably as a super duty, F150 doesn't work for me either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I know it's not what you're looking for, but a small utility trailer hooked to escape, explorer, etc, would really help you out for your occasional need a truck days. That said, I'm in the same camp as you. There has to be a way to make a smaller truck than the F150 work in North America, and if they're worried about the sales crown, call it F100 if they have to. Hell, I drive a superduty every day and I still think there should be a truck below F150. I had one at one point, but I don't know, it's too big to take off road, too small to do any real work consistently and reliably as a super duty, F150 doesn't work for me either. I still think it's more about not having a suitable modern global platform readily available that fits the bill. Like GRWD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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