Avon Lake Medium Duty

[7Mary3]

I'm not sure if it qualifies as medium news, but Dodge last week released revised tow ratings for its HD and it now maxes out at 30,000 lbs for a fifth wheel. That seems to be in medium capability range and is a signficant amount more than Ford rates the SDs for.

 

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/01/2013-ram-hd-the-king-of-towing-at-30000-lbs.html

I think Ford is going to need to go to boxed frame rails of high strength steel to match those numbers. And I expect the next Super Duty will have those features.

[twintornados]

I think Ford is going to need to go to boxed frame rails of high strength steel to match those numbers. And I expect the next Super Duty will have those features.

Does Dodg....errr, I mean Ram use these features?

[lfeg]

I have read the Ram press release on GVWRs and GCWRs. 37,500 lb GCWR in the 2500. 17,000 lb hitch with 1800 lb tongue weight capacity class V hitch available. A 3/4 ton pickup?

 

This is getting out of hand. Back in my heyday you had to get in the mid to upper range of mediums (class 6, light class 7) to get those capabilities.I do not see frame strength as a limiting factor in this. I am starting to question rear axle capabilities. And brakes. Even with trailer brakes, exhaust brakes and so on, the heat loading that the foundation brakes must handle in challenging terrain is huge (brakes are one of my current fields). And from what I see in OEM disc brake rotor castings today I have my doubts. Especially in long term durability.

 

Another issue on this - 3/4 and one ton pickups are solidly getting into CDL territory with todays GCWRs. Remember, a combination with a trailer exceeding 10,000 lb can get you there, and a hitch with 17,000 lb rating can easily lead you into requiring a CDL. It is just a matter of time until the rules and regulations change so that it is prima facia that you will need to have to have a CDL to drive a vehicle with such capabilities. Piloting a 30,000+ lb combination DOES require specialized training.

[CurtisH]

or you where confusing it with the 4V 4.6L

That's always possible.

 

I seem to remember an article, though, that discussed how much design work Ford put into the 3 valve heads and that they were more compact than the 2 valve heads. I'll see if I can find it.

[7Mary3]

Does Dodg....errr, I mean Ram use these features?

Yes, in fact they were the first. The only problem with a boxed rail is difficulty mounting aftermarket bodies, but there are ways around that issue. Dodge and GM use C-channel frames on some cab and chassis models.

[Bob Rosadini]

I have read the Ram press release on GVWRs and GCWRs. 37,500 lb GCWR in the 2500. 17,000 lb hitch with 1800 lb tongue weight capacity class V hitch available. A 3/4 ton pickup?

 

This is getting out of hand. Back in my heyday you had to get in the mid to upper range of mediums (class 6, light class 7) to get those capabilities.I do not see frame strength as a limiting factor in this. I am starting to question rear axle capabilities. And brakes. Even with trailer brakes, exhaust brakes and so on, the heat loading that the foundation brakes must handle in challenging terrain is huge (brakes are one of my current fields). And from what I see in OEM disc brake rotor castings today I have my doubts. Especially in long term durability.

 

Another issue on this - 3/4 and one ton pickups are solidly getting into CDL territory with todays GCWRs. Remember, a combination with a trailer exceeding 10,000 lb can get you there, and a hitch with 17,000 lb rating can easily lead you into requiring a CDL. It is just a matter of time until the rules and regulations change so that it is prima facia that you will need to have to have a CDL to drive a vehicle with such capabilities. Piloting a 30,000+ lb combination DOES require specialized training.

Interesting-and confusing. Here in Mass-and I think this is probably uniform across the states- a class B is required for a truck 26,001lbs or greater GVW. Hitch a trailer OVER 10,000 lbs to that truck -and you now have a GCW of at least 36,001 lbs and you need a Class A, or same as you would need to drive a 5 axle Class 8 tractor trailer. If the trailer is registered UNDER 10,000 lbs, your class B is good.

 

As I read the reg, some yahoo with a new Dodge pick up rated for 37,000lbs GCW pulling his cooler full of brewskis and his cigsarette boat would not need a classified license-as the truck is under 26,000 GVW. You are right-this looks like a big loophole that will put some heavy weights in the hands of people who might not have the skill sets to handle the vehicle.

[lfeg]

• Bob,

 

Getting a bit off topic here. From the Ohio CDL Q&A - 2. A vehicle towing a unit with a manufacturer's GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs. when the GCWR exceeds 26,000 lbs.- you need a CDL

 

So, if your trailer has a manufacturers rating plate with a rating on it over 10,000 lb, and your pickup had a GCWR over 26,000 lb, you are in CDL territory. Even running empty, because it is based on manufacturers ratings. Now there are RV exemptions, personal non commercial use exemptions, and my favorite, historical vehicle non commercial use exemption. But if you are ticketed, you often have to go to court and prove that you are eligible for the exemption.

 

Another thing. I am very familiar with Ohio regs. If the OHP or any local police ever want to get picky and raise some revenue they can nail many pickup owners for improper registration. In Ohio you can register a pickup several ways - Non Commercial 3/4 ton and under, Non Commercial over 3/4 but 1 ton or under, or Commercial. The rules state that Non Commercial 3/4 ton and under is for trucks and vans with a load capacity (payload) 1500 lb or less. Non Commercial 1 ton is for trucks and vans over 1500 lb but 2000 lb or less. Anything over 2000 lb is Commercial. Also, by definition, anything over 10,000 lb GVW is Commercial. (and this triggers a requirement for Commercial insurance) Most pickups are registered Non Commercial 3/4 ton and under, (much less expensive) but even most F150s do not qualify for for that. And some are over the limit for 1 ton Non Commercial. The dealers, and even the Deputy Registrars (where you register vehicles) are mostly ignorant of the regs and will give you whatever you request. ( I even had a Deputy Registrar try to get me to register an F600 (21,000 lb GVW) as a 3/4 ton Non Com to save money).

 

A mess waiting to happen as pickup capabilities continue upward.

 

Edited January 24, 2013 by lfeg

[Joe771476]

In a crane magazine, I saw a 16-ton crane mounted on a new F750 chassis. In a fire mag, I also saw a 750 GPM pumper/rescue body mounted on a new F750. So like Santa Claus and talking M&M's, they really do exist!

[Bob Rosadini]

In a crane magazine, I saw a 16-ton crane mounted on a new F750 chassis. In a fire mag, I also saw a 750 GPM pumper/rescue body mounted on a new F750. So like Santa Claus and talking M&M's, they really do exist!

So Joe-whose pumper/rescue body was that?

[Bob Rosadini]

January stats-650/750 53% gain over Jan 2012.

[lfeg]

Interesting that Ford F650/750 numbers are up. I am reading that Freightliner is looking at cutting back production of mediums as their sales are not growing per projections, and are falling off in some segments.

 

On another issue, does anyone have info on sales to State and local governments? I have been spending much time driving on snowy roads the last several weeks, and in Ohio, ODOT seems to have quite a few new single and tandem axle plow trucks and spreaders, all Internationals. Same with Cities and Counties, as the International seems to be the tool of choice. I regularly drive by several ODOT outposts, and the new ones seem to keep popping up. I am seeing much the same in PA.

[twintornados]

.....I regularly drive by several ODOT outposts, and the new ones seem to keep popping up. I am seeing much the same in PA.

Same in NY State...I travel the Thruway regularly and it is all International for plow and spreader trucks.

[fordmantpw]

Same in NY State...I travel the Thruway regularly and it is all International for plow and spreader trucks.

 

That's all I see here in MO too.

[Bob Rosadini]

Same in Mass-Navistar predominates-although state has some new F-liners. Was told by a Conn. DOT guy a few months ago that the new Navistars were nothing but trouble-ongoing electrical issues that get "fixed" but never a diagnosis as to "why"?? Take it with a grain of salt but between their egr/scr issues and their financial issue seems like the time is right for Ford to put this on the front burner if they truly want back in. Of course there will be those who say-"who cares"? " Municipal is bid= no margin".

 

Now if moneyis no object, check out attached-new snow machine at Owl's Head airport in Maine. Western Star 4WD

[lfeg]

Municipal bid=no margin is not the case here with plow and spreader trucks. Even the State Spec purchases are based less on cost than capability. Our city purchased several new plow/spreader trucks last year, and the cost to outfit the trucks was higher than the cost of the cab and chassis. I am familiar with one place that does the outfitting for many city, township, and county agencies. The hydraulic system alone to operate and control the plow and spreader is over $15K.

 

Around here, if Ford wants to get in this market, the first thing thay will need is a very tough frame. That is the most problematic area - frame cracks at plow frame attachment points and at rear suspension attachments can take a truck out of service quickly, and keep it out. Ford, and then the Sterlings back in the late 90s and into the 2000s had issues with this.

[Bob Rosadini]

Check out the thread on the January Conference. 79 slides and I believe its no. 29 that shows world wide truck family-included are Cargo and 650/750-a positive sign for a change-even though on another slide they mention"650/750" and post a picture of a Super Duty SuperCab!

[Joe771476]

I just saw an F750 dump complete with plow and spreader owned by a private contractor. So why can't state DOTs and municipalities purchase them? Do they need beefier chassis to meet the grueling demands of high mileage plowing? Couln't Ford accommodate this? Or are multi-brand dealers being persuaded by other brand brass to shy away from pitching the Fords? I've always wondered if Sterling tried to keep the salesmen from pitching the Fords.

[Bob Rosadini]

I just saw an F750 dump complete with plow and spreader owned by a private contractor. So why can't state DOTs and municipalities purchase them? Do they need beefier chassis to meet the grueling demands of high mileage plowing? Couln't Ford accommodate this? Or are multi-brand dealers being persuaded by other brand brass to shy away from pitching the Fords? I've always wondered if Sterling tried to keep the salesmen from pitching the Fords.

Joe-I would say chassis is heavy enough- you can get a 750 with a 37,000 lb gvw. Plus frame specs are plenty heavy enough. My guess is biggest thing going against them is power. A 6.7 Cummins is not going to cut it at 37,000 lbs assuming you have a loaded sander and you are pushing a blade full of wet snow.

 

Mass DOT has a bunch of new F'liner SD 114 ten wheelers currently being outfited with bodies, plows.

[lfeg]

Bob has it, Ford does not offer enough engine. Another thing is that State, county, and municipality like commonality. Most around here have both single axle and tandems in their fleets, and being able to get both from the same source is a big draw, so unless you offer both SA and tandem, you are second tier.

 

Also, around here, many State/County plow/spreader trucks are a step above the F750, more like the long gone F850.

[Bob Rosadini]

Bob has it, Ford does not offer enough engine. Another thing is that State, county, and municipality like commonality. Most around here have both single axle and tandems in their fleets, and being able to get both from the same source is a big draw, so unless you offer both SA and tandem, you are second tier.

 

Also, around here, many State/County plow/spreader trucks are a step above the F750, more like the long gone F850.

To support this point, I do believe municipals are exempt from the 12% Fed tax- that is the magic of a 750, as the FET applies only to trucks above 33,000. Thus a municipal CAN buy the bigger truck without paying the 12%-which on a 60 grand + truck is a nice piece of change.

 

By the way, check out F'liners website and then look at Fords "commercial" site. F'liner in a word is "impressive".

[7Mary3]

I am starting to see a lot of the SD 114's. The SD 114 is the truck that primarily replaced the Sterling class 8 vocactionals. Looks like Freightliner is finally making inroads in that particular market. International was always strong in class 8 vocational, and I think Freightliner is gaining on them.

[lfeg]

Spent some time at the Cleveland Auto Show yesterday. Ford had a good display of their commercial offerings.

They had some heavy spec F650s on the floor. They looked good, but the big issue is that they are under engined to make full use of the frame, axle, and spring specs. A good example was a red F650 - Heaviest spring packs and rear end I have ever seen on a 650/750. Did not get the model of the rear end, but it looked like a heavy Meritor. 11R22.5 14 PR tires. All ready for the body to be mounted. But the Cummins 6.7 just seemed a bit light for the rest of the components.

[Bob Rosadini]

Spent some time at the Cleveland Auto Show yesterday. Ford had a good display of their commercial offerings.

They had some heavy spec F650s on the floor. They looked good, but the big issue is that they are under engined to make full use of the frame, axle, and spring specs. A good example was a red F650 - Heaviest spring packs and rear end I have ever seen on a 650/750. Did not get the model of the rear end, but it looked like a heavy Meritor. 11R22.5 14 PR tires. All ready for the body to be mounted. But the Cummins 6.7 just seemed a bit light for the rest of the components.

Glad to hear they at least had a presence with a 650 there-was it a gas job? On another note I saw your post on the Transit at same show. Your comment on the fact that no one was there to talkj about it is typical Ford based on my truck show experiences. If they sent anyone it was often some guy from the regional sales office who might not be a truck guy-and didn't really want to be there. What a lost opportunity.

 

As to you comments on the Mopar, sounds like they will be formidable in that sector-keep in mind, like the Sprinter and the Transit, their offering has a lot of miles under its belt-or should I say kilometers?

[lfeg]

Glad to hear they at least had a presence with a 650 there-was it a gas job? On another note I saw your post on the Transit at same show. Your comment on the fact that no one was there to talkj about it is typical Ford based on my truck show experiences. If they sent anyone it was often some guy from the regional sales office who might not be a truck guy-and didn't really want to be there. What a lost opportunity.

 

As to you comments on the Mopar, sounds like they will be formidable in that sector-keep in mind, like the Sprinter and the Transit, their offering has a lot of miles under its belt-or should I say kilometers?

 

Bob, there were 3 in the main display, maybe another back in the corner. One was a V10 gas, others were the Cummins. Someone put some thought into the display. They even had two CNG Super Duties, a propane conversion, Super Duties in pickup and utility body and other configs, a boatload of E Series, several current Transit Connects, and the new upcoming Transit Connect. Ford had a bigger commercial truck display (separate from the cars and "consumer" pickups that was larger than most other automakers displays. It looks as if they do not want to say much on the Transit, but really push the E Series until the Transit is in full production. The Mopar guys were really pushing the Promaster, they had two guys there who knew the thing inside and out, almost ready to take orders.

[Joe771476]

Transport Topics reports Freightliner leads class 6 at 1886 units for Jan 2012, but Ford went from 4th to 2nd with 894 units, 6.3 times Jan 2011! Ford's truck man Deluca says he attributes its success to the V10 gas engine which can also be altered for natural gas. Ford controlled class 4 thru 5 with 66% share followed by Isuzu (weird) 16%. Daimler was up in class 8, while Paccar, Navistar, and Volvo were down various percentages.