Ford Expedition & Navigator

[jpd80]

But that's a global product in markets that don't already have an Explorer, Flex and Edge in it.

And that's the difference in the markets.

And I have to agree, I would have expected to see F150 engines in EXPy long before this...

Will they upgrade it or maybe do an Explorer EL and kill off Flex and Expedition in one hit?

There's lots of talk up and down Dearborn, they have to make changes but which ones....

 

The lack of any MCEs is probably the first indication that Ford predicts no return on investment or has already made a decision, that's always the first warning sign that discontinuation is imminent. But you must admit that volume of vehicles sold is not the full story and never an indication that one vehicle is more important than another.

 

Do they update Expedition as a late MCE, roll it into a part of the new F150,

or kill it off by using another platform to replace it?

Edited December 17, 2011 by jpd80

[2005Explorer]

The lack of any MCEs is probably the first indication that Ford predicts no return on investment or has already made a decision, that's always the first warning sign that discontinuation is imminent. But you must admit that volume of vehicles sold is not the full story and never an indication that one vehicle is more important than another.

 

What is sad is they are a good product just in need of some updating, however they have always struggled to compete with the GM full-sized SUV's. If GM is launching all new models maybe it really is best just to pull out and let them have the market. I'm not sure, but maybe that is what Ford is thinking. Remember when it came to minivans, Ford couldn't compete and couldn't afford to build a vehicle that could so it is possible we are looking at the same situation this time.

[akirby]

What is sad is they are a good product just in need of some updating, however they have always struggled to compete with the GM full-sized SUV's. If GM is launching all new models maybe it really is best just to pull out and let them have the market. I'm not sure, but maybe that is what Ford is thinking. Remember when it came to minivans, Ford couldn't compete and couldn't afford to build a vehicle that could so it is possible we are looking at the same situation this time.

 

The only way Expedition can survive is to share the F150 platform. The current one-off platform is too expensive for projected volumes. And since we haven't seen the new F150 yet it's premature to speculate whether it will spawn a new Expy or not. I think it will but again it's a matter of timing where the new platform isn't ready yet so why spend big bucks on the current platform just to throw it all away in 2 years?

[2005Explorer]

The only way Expedition can survive is to share the F150 platform. The current one-off platform is too expensive for projected volumes. And since we haven't seen the new F150 yet it's premature to speculate whether it will spawn a new Expy or not. I think it will but again it's a matter of timing where the new platform isn't ready yet so why spend big bucks on the current platform just to throw it all away in 2 years?

 

I thought an all new F-150 is still a few years out. Isn't 2013 just a facelift and not an all new truck? There is plenty of time left to at least equip the current models with the new engines and do a little facelifting. I can't imagine it would be that hard or cost that much money to do a slight revision to the models they already have. In current form they will never survive until a totally new F-150 hits the ground. I'm not sure when GM is launching their new Tahoe, Suburban, Escalade and related GMC models, but once they do if Ford doesn't do something with the Expedition and Navigator they might as well discontinue them.

 

I just think the next all new F-150 is too far out to neglect the current models and continue shipping with the 5.4. As far as the Navigator is concerned maybe they thought everyone would just move over to the MKT, but the MKT has been a failure and dropping money on a facelift isn't going to fix it. No one here will ever convince me that spending money on giving the MKT an update while letting the Navigator die on the vine is good investment. It's not and the facelift isn't going to magically improve MKT sales. That whale has sunk yet they continue to sink more money into it thinking it is going to fix Lincoln. Nonsense.

[theoldwizard]

... even the rumor of a EB 3.5 and facelift for 2013 have evaporated. ...

Really ? I'll have to double check. A few months ago it was still on.

[theoldwizard]

I still think a T6 based Expedition (especially if it were built alongside a slightly widened T6 based F100) could make sense.

A T6 based SUV IS in the cycle plan (U375) ... just not for the US !

Edited December 17, 2011 by theoldwizard

[2005Explorer]

Really ? I'll have to double check. A few months ago it was still on.

 

I'd say either they give it the new engines and a facelift for next year or otherwise cancel the product and let GM have the market.

[Fgts]

A face lift and the new motors are coming but what's a concern is the GMTs would gone though 2 full redesigns while the Expy/Nav only had nip and tucks from 03 to 13. I dont think Ford would give up on the big suv market but they do need to combine with the F series again soon.

[probowler]

Well ford is all about platform sharing, so.....

 

 

Combine the F-150 and Expedition, and make a short-wheelbase, 2-door version as a Bronco?

 

 

 

I really don't understand why it would be SO grossly expensive to make another bronco based off the f-150. Think about it, what was the bronco? A short-bed F-150 with a fancy topper. A few extra pieces of trim, some slightly longer carpet, badaboom! You have a Bronco.

[Harley Lover]

If Ford's plan is to have the Expy/Nav revert to sharing the F150 chassis, might it be possible that the new gen Expy/Nav might actually debut before the F150? Doing so would allow Ford to start up the presumably brand new chassis at low volumes on a low volume product, and iron out any kinks in advance of production of the volume F150. This approach would also allow the various suppliers to ramp up and debug their product and processes as well. Since the next gen F150 is supposed to be radical, why not use the Expy/Nav to get things straight before they introduce the money product?

[kstwister]

I own a 2008 Expedition. It is a nice machine. We traded from an '02 Explorer and other than my insurance costing more (!) the trade has been a good one. We are getting similar, if not better, mileage. Power is good with the 5.4 3v and utility of the vehicle is outstanding. I have 4 kids and refuse to drive a minivan. While I think the Flex is a fine vehicle the styling isn't my thing.

I'd really like the see the 3.5 ecoboost in one though. The thought of getting 22-23 mpg instead of 18-19 would REALLY appeal to me. A power gain and 15-20% bump in mpg is a win/win. A baby Powerstroke would be a cool option but very low volume one. I believe people don't want their hands to smell like diesel after they refuel... unless they are farmers. Soccer moms, not so much.

It'll be good to see these ecoboost engines a few years and lots of miles down the road still chugging along before I invest in one though. I think the technology is kick ass but it's not uncommon for new product lines to have teething problems.....

[sullynd]

A T6 based SUV IS in the cycle plan (U375) ... just not for the US !

 

I know that, but I'm not talking about the Everest, I'm saying take T6, make it w i d e r and build an F100 and Expedition off of it.

[BORG]

I know that, but I'm not talking about the Everest, I'm saying take T6, make it w i d e r and build an F100 and Expedition off of it.

 

 

Ford already has an Explorer.

[sullynd]

Ford already has an Explorer.

 

T6 Wheelbase and overall length is 14 inches longer than the Explorer. The current Expendition is 7 inches longer in wheelbase than the Explorer, and 9 inches longer in overall length.

 

A modified T6 would also allow it to perform towing duties and offer more engine options than the current Explorer.

Edited December 17, 2011 by sullynd

[theoldwizard]

I know that, but I'm not talking about the Everest, I'm saying take T6, make it w i d e r and build an F100 and Expedition off of it.

If the US ever does get the T6, it will likely be pretty much "as-is" !

 

Changing it would go completely against the "One Ford" plan !

 

Changes to the full size Transit (V408) for US market are going to show up in EU version at the same time.

[jpd80]

T6 Wheelbase and overall length is 14 inches longer than the Explorer. The current Expendition is 7 inches longer in wheelbase than the Explorer, and 9 inches longer in overall length.

 

A modified T6 would also allow it to perform towing duties and offer more engine options than the current Explorer.

Rangers SUV is called the Everest and has a 112" wheelbase, I'd expect that the T6 version will be the same.

Basically you will end up with an off road 4WD vehicle that parallels Explorer, I don't see that as critical US product.

[theoldwizard]

Rangers SUV is called the Everest and has a 112" wheelbase, I'd expect that the T6 version will be the same.

Basically you will end up with an off road 4WD vehicle that parallels Explorer, I don't see that as critical US product.

Certainly not "critical" but if it get better fuel economy (which it should because the Explorer is overweight) and drives well on the road then I would hope Ford would consider it. Right after they start selling the T6 here ! :D

[Kris Kolman]

In the event the T6 does come over the Everest could be the fundation of a traditional SUV. But the market for a traditional SUV has clearly been going away... Another problem is that the Everest, unlike the XTerria or FJ Cruiser, is actually quite large coming in ~200in. This esentially makes it the size of a Pathfiner or 4Runner, right in the Explorer's marketing territory. That highlights a problem in that Ford's utility lineup is already packed full too much overlap already: Escape, Edge, Explorer, Flex, and Expedition. Why is the Flex still around? Sorry that was OT... I think perhaps a Bronco reserected as a 4-door shortened Expedition, minus a 3rd row, might be a more preferable product marketing wise: Bronco would be to Expedition as Edge is to Explorer. The potential cost savings, assuming the Expedition and F150 reconsolidate, could make a buissness case.

[jpd80]

In the event the T6 does come over the Everest could be the fundation of a traditional SUV. But the market for a traditional SUV has clearly been going away... Another problem is that the Everest, unlike the XTerria or FJ Cruiser, is actually quite large coming in ~200in. This esentially makes it the size of a Pathfiner or 4Runner, right in the Explorer's marketing territory. That highlights a problem in that Ford's utility lineup is already packed full too much overlap already: Escape, Edge, Explorer, Flex, and Expedition. Why is the Flex still around? Sorry that was OT... I think perhaps a Bronco reserected as a 4-door shortened Expedition, minus a 3rd row, might be a more preferable product marketing wise: Bronco would be to Expedition as Edge is to Explorer. The potential cost savings, assuming the Expedition and F150 reconsolidate, could make a buissness case.

North America loves its Utilities Kris and I suspect it is where a lot of former mid Sized truck buyers now reside,

while not convinced that t6 Everest would come stateside, I'm of the belief that the SUV CUV market is that

fragmented and diversified that you could sell a soft roader alongside a modern BOF 4WD and get away

with it, something othermanufacturers with limited resources would struggle to do..

 

In Australia, Landcruiser Prado and Kluger (Highlander) sell well alongside each other because the market

is sophisticated enough to know the difference between the two, one is for town, the other for country.

Ford realize the same thing and will pappily sell new T6 SUV alongside their Territory SUV - with success IMO..

 

So yeah, bring in Everest but make it unashamedly a 4WD Diesel and show it's for different customer base,

the result might be quite astonishing.......

Edited December 18, 2011 by jpd80

[Pioneer]

I thought an all new F-150 is still a few years out.

 

Job1 on the all-new F-150, as of right now, is set for June 2014 as a 2015 model.

[jpd80]

Thanks Pioneer, it's probably way too early for any other details yet...

[Pioneer]

Thanks Pioneer, it's probably way too early for any other details yet...

 

I know some details. Nothing about looks, but a lot about materials and drivetrains. Too early to give any out. I have been picking the brains of the engineers and the company that will be in charge of the upgrades at DTP. Have learned a lot of what to expect.

 

Personally, if I was in the market for a new truck in the next year or two, my advice is to lease. You will want the new one and both the old and the new models will be in production at the same time. Can't be good for resale value if you attempt to trade in for the new one.

[jpd80]

I know some details. Nothing about looks, but a lot about materials and drivetrains. Too early to give any out. I have been picking the brains of the engineers and the company that will be in charge of the upgrades at DTP. Have learned a lot of what to expect.

 

Personally, if I was in the market for a new truck in the next year or two, my advice is to lease. You will want the new one and both the old and the new models will be in production at the same time. Can't be good for resale value if you attempt to trade in for the new one.

 

Wow, sounds like a quantum leap, either massive changes requiring long ramp up or gradual introduction

to get buyers used to the changes. Either way, it sounds like Ford is out there leading the market.....

 

PS,

I hope Ford is able to make good on their planned weight reduction target, that was a key component IIRC...

Edited December 18, 2011 by jpd80

[atvman]

I think they're being reworked along with the new F150 where there will be a lot more sharing than the current vehicles. It's the only way to make a business case for such low volume vehicles now.

 

This. I assume that in the next generation, an F150 Supercrew and Expedition will be extremely similar. They'll have to be built on the same line too.

[FordBuyer]

Wow, sounds like a quantum leap, either massive changes requiring long ramp up or gradual introduction

to get buyers used to the changes. Either way, it sounds like Ford is out there leading the market.....

 

PS,

I hope Ford is able to make good on their planned weight reduction target, that was a key component IIRC...

 

With new CAFE rules coming shortly thereafter, Ford has no choice but get a lot of weight out of 2015 F-150. I would think at least 500 pounds. Hopefully by then there will be new low cost ways of adding carbon fiber parts and other ways to economically reduce weight, but not strength. I believe trucks have to average 27mpg. I would also suspect that largest SUV will be similar in size to present Explorer. Since Ford has really said nothing about Expedition and local sales marketing is nonexistent at least in this Metro area, I doubt if Ford has made a decision yet on what they will do with this large SUV. In fact, I have not seen an Expedition on dealer lot in months.....6 months ago or so I saw two 2011's at Bill Brown, but a rare sight. I wonder if there is even a 2012 Expedtion out there somewhere in Metro Detroit. A few more exurbia dealerships seem to carry them for horse farmers and the like, but pretty rare in more urban areas. Kind of like the way Sport Trac sold. Following the pattern Ford sets in getting rid of nameplates, looks to me like Expedition is not long for this world if trend continues much longer.