2005Explorer Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) easy to counter there, Edge has GREAT lease programs right now and we cant keep our hands on them, and the Escape isnt ugly, dated yes ,but ITS rebates, lease and financing programs are outright crazy good right now....and thats a significant reason it is doing so well right now...if not, the MAIN reason. And that will go away a tad when the new model hits....whicg is Fords MO right now. Focus is selling fine, our issue is we cant get em....ANNOYING. If dealers dont have any selection iof course numbers will be down... Good deals help, but the vehicle still has to be attractive to sell in great numbers especially when it is an older vehicle ready to be replaced. Do you think good deals helped the Pontiac Aztec sell like the Escape is right now at the end of it's life? Do you think good deals would help Lincoln move a lot more MKTs? Now of course the Aztec and MKT are poster children for ugly vehicles, but good deals are only part of the equation. I have been watching sales numbers for years and although I am not an expert usually a new model that is well received will post higher sales then the model it replaced. I can't think of many examples that a new or significantly updated model sold worse then the model it replaced unless the economy was tanking at the same time. Unless priced significantly higher the new Escape should be able to at least match or beat the sales of the current one considering it is an all new design. If it is down quite a bit and the overall compact utility sales are either flat or up from the year before that means they lost sales somewhere. Sure it is nice to be able to charge people more money (I know I am the minority here that wants a good deal... most here seem willing to open their pocketbooks and give all they can to Ford) however if people flee to another automaker because your not competitive with your prices or incentives you have just lost those people to another company. It is a delicate balance especially in a very price sensitive market like compact sedans or compact utilities. Make no mistake getting the best value for the money does matter to compact sedan and utility buyers especially in the United States. One thing I have never agreed with is that Americans are lusting over small premium vehicles. No doubt more are today since fuel is higher, however most will go bigger if it's within their financial ability or if the larger vehicle doesn't cost much more then the smaller one. I still think expensive fully loaded Focuses and Escapes that are priced well into their Fusion and Edge counterparts are a tough sell in the U.S. Maybe that is what is going on with the Focus right now. Did they do a product mix that focused the most volume at the higher trim and equipment levels? Stripper models never seem to sell well, but midline models seem to be where a lot of customers shop when it comes to these sorts of vehicles. I am not an expert, but I know a lot about Americans and when it comes to buying vehicles we are a completely different customer compared to Europeans. Would have I purchased an Explorer over the Escape even as a single guy if I had the money? In a heartbeat. Cost did matter in my vehicle selection, however no matter how good the deal is I still would have not purchased an "ugly" vehicle. Edited December 28, 2011 by 2005Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) Cash or finance - I don't think it matters. Only $500 cash back for non-Ford leases. LINKGet up to $2,000 Cash Back Disclosures: Cash back varies by model. $500 Customer Cash (PGM #12008) + $500 Ford Credit Bonus Cash (PGM #12010) + $1,000 Trade-In Assistance Bonus Cash (not available on Focus S) (PGM #33886). Trade-In Assistance Bonus Cash requires trade-in of 1995 or newer FLM or competitive vehicle, or terminate lease 30 days prior to or 90 days after new retail delivery. Ford Credit Bonus Cash requires Ford Credit financing; not all buyers will qualify. Residency restrictions apply. For all offers, take new retail delivery from dealer stock by 1/3/2012. See dealer for qualifications and complete details. $500 Cash Back for Non-Ford Lessees Disclosures: Competitive Lease Conquest Cash (PGM #33800) available to customers that currently lease a competitive (non-Ford Motor Company) vehicle or have terminated a competitive lease up to 30 days prior to new retail delivery. Lease termination not required. Not available with lease renewal, owner loyalty or other conquest offers. Residency restrictions apply. Take new retail delivery from dealer stock by 1/3/2012. See dealer for qualifications and complete details. Edited December 28, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Only $500 cash back for non-Ford leases. But none of those rebates are restricted to cash buyers only. Maybe Dean meant "buying" as opposed to "leasing". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) I still think expensive fully loaded Focuses and Escapes that are priced well into their Fusion and Edge counterparts are a tough sell in the U.S. Maybe that is what is going on with the Focus right now. Did they do a product mix that focused the most volume at the higher trim and equipment levels? Deanh just told you that Focus is still in short supply, can't get enough of them, so the real picture on Focus is being distorted by: 1) constrained delivery, 2) limited incentives and lease deals on new Focus 3) more attractive leases and incentives on other Ford vehicles. With that in mind, it's understandable that the new Focus is bleeding sales to Fusion, Escape and Edge, as well as maybe some to Fiesta... Iget your point on looks, the new Fords are going to be polarizing designs, you'll either love them or hate them but I'd rather see that than do a Toyota and have bland, boring fridge designs....gawd, I'm sounding like Fordjellymoulds...:shades: Edited December 28, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) I get your point on looks, the new Fords are going to be polarizing designs, you'll either love them or hate them but I'd rather see that than do a Toyota and have bland, boring fridge designs....gawd, I'm sounding like Fordjellymoulds...:shades: Love it or hate it to some degree is fine as long as it is not like the MKT where it seems like 10% of people love it and 90% of people hate it. It is fine to have a few people hate it, but you need the majority to like it if it is going to be a strong product. I don't really have any issue with the Fiesta and Focus styling as they are cars. I feel the Escape has turned into a lifted Focus wagon and I just don't care for it as a small SUV. I can find a simular product with a similar look for what will be less money at the competitors dealerships. Other then EcoBoost there isn't much that makes this a real class standout. Of course the old one wasn't either, but at least I thought it was a great value for the price and I like the little truck styling. There isn't much else special except the V6 makes it pretty darn quick and it has great visibility, is pleasant enough to drive and is easy to park. Edited December 28, 2011 by 2005Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CKNSLS Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I have a feeling the new Escape styling is going to be an issue. That font end sure is ugly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I have a feeling the new Escape styling is going to be an issue. That font end sure is ugly. That's OK,, most here know that your predictions are as misguided as your loyalty to Toyota..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 You are so hung up on the idea that the current Escape sells in large numbers because of its styling...as many have pointed out the Escape is a success because it is cheap to buy, another words it is a stellar deal. If styling were so important to sales the Camry certainly wouldn't be the number one midsize sedan, nor would the Corolla be the number one compact. You mean like other successful and profitable Fords: The Model T, Model A, '32 Ford V8, '65 Mustang, and many, many others. So if the '12 Escape is a stellar deal (because it is also a good looking and popular vehicle) what will the new '13 sticker at? Has pricing been announced for comparison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 You mean like other successful and profitable Fords: The Model T, Model A, '32 Ford V8, '65 Mustang, and many, many others. So if the '12 Escape is a stellar deal (because it is also a good looking and popular vehicle) what will the new '13 sticker at? Has pricing been announced for comparison? As far as I know they haven't but Ford has stated that the pricing should be similar...but I'm sure that you'll be able to sticker out the high end models for over 30K+ with no problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Local dealer has 28 to choose from. Is that going by online inventory or actually going to the lot and counting them? Often online stock shows whats in the pipeline and hasn't made it to the dealership yet. A small dealership down the road from where I work at had bunch of Foci (about 6-10 and this is a tiny dealership) and I just noticed this AM that they finally sold or dealer traded a couple because they where down to 4-5 them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sullynd Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Is that going by online inventory or actually going to the lot and counting them? Often online stock shows whats in the pipeline and hasn't made it to the dealership yet. At least 24 of them are actually on the lot, as they have real photos which are at the dealer. 4 of them are "stock" photos which are labelled "Just Arrived!". This is the "Big" local dealer. Smaller one I purchased my Flex from has 40+ listed on their website, but as they all show stock photos it's hard to tell how many they really have in stock. That said, I'd have a hard time believing their actual inventory is not at least half of what they have listed on their website, and this is a fairly small dealer. I'm wondering if we should assign numbers to the excuses as to why the Focus is not selling, and apply the same numbers when the Escape does not sell in a decent volume? It might be a useful shorthand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Good deals help, but the vehicle still has to be attractive to sell in great numbers especially when it is an older vehicle ready to be replaced. Do you think good deals helped the Pontiac Aztec sell like the Escape is right now at the end of it's life? Do you think good deals would help Lincoln move a lot more MKTs? Now of course the Aztec and MKT are poster children for ugly vehicles, but good deals are only part of the equation. I have been watching sales numbers for years and although I am not an expert usually a new model that is well received will post higher sales then the model it replaced. I can't think of many examples that a new or significantly updated model sold worse then the model it replaced unless the economy was tanking at the same time. Unless priced significantly higher the new Escape should be able to at least match or beat the sales of the current one considering it is an all new design. If it is down quite a bit and the overall compact utility sales are either flat or up from the year before that means they lost sales somewhere. Sure it is nice to be able to charge people more money (I know I am the minority here that wants a good deal... most here seem willing to open their pocketbooks and give all they can to Ford) however if people flee to another automaker because your not competitive with your prices or incentives you have just lost those people to another company. It is a delicate balance especially in a very price sensitive market like compact sedans or compact utilities. Make no mistake getting the best value for the money does matter to compact sedan and utility buyers especially in the United States. One thing I have never agreed with is that Americans are lusting over small premium vehicles. No doubt more are today since fuel is higher, however most will go bigger if it's within their financial ability or if the larger vehicle doesn't cost much more then the smaller one. I still think expensive fully loaded Focuses and Escapes that are priced well into their Fusion and Edge counterparts are a tough sell in the U.S. Maybe that is what is going on with the Focus right now. Did they do a product mix that focused the most volume at the higher trim and equipment levels? Stripper models never seem to sell well, but midline models seem to be where a lot of customers shop when it comes to these sorts of vehicles. I am not an expert, but I know a lot about Americans and when it comes to buying vehicles we are a completely different customer compared to Europeans. Would have I purchased an Explorer over the Escape even as a single guy if I had the money? In a heartbeat. Cost did matter in my vehicle selection, however no matter how good the deal is I still would have not purchased an "ugly" vehicle. Explorer, this is way too easy...what do you think would happen if Lincoln started advertising 0 drive offs and $399 a month......once again I will mention focus constraint as a promary problem regarding sales numbers....we have a grand toal of 3...how many days supply is that?.....and not doubting you know a lot about Americans when it comes to buying practice...I just wont mention i have been selling the damn things to AMERICANS for greater than 25 years and have had that time to listen to the bleating and witness first hand what HOT buttons are.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I'm wondering if we should assign numbers to the excuses as to why the Focus is not selling, and apply the same numbers when the Escape does not sell in a decent volume? It might be a useful shorthand. Its not? Whats your metric deciding that is or isn't? There are far too many variables for you to categorically state that just because your local dealership has X amount Foci that its not selling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 At least 24 of them are actually on the lot, as they have real photos which are at the dealer. 4 of them are "stock" photos which are labelled "Just Arrived!". This is the "Big" local dealer. Smaller one I purchased my Flex from has 40+ listed on their website, but as they all show stock photos it's hard to tell how many they really have in stock. That said, I'd have a hard time believing their actual inventory is not at least half of what they have listed on their website, and this is a fairly small dealer. I'm wondering if we should assign numbers to the excuses as to why the Focus is not selling, and apply the same numbers when the Escape does not sell in a decent volume? It might be a useful shorthand. you do realize that Ford wants/ has cut overall production 30 % right, think that has anything to do with the pursuit of higher ATP's and lower overall incentives? and thus higher overall profitability?....the only vehicle exempt from those rules are the F-150 ( Ford will NOT give up being the #1 seller, although the $1500 rebate on eco trucks is the lowest i can recall for a while ) and OUTGOING over the hill models...ie Escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 once again I will mention focus constraint as a promary problem regarding sales numbers....we have a grand toal of 3...how many days supply is that? Dean...like I said just above is it just a Cali thing? You state that the Flex is selling pretty well...when overall numbers aren't supporting that. You have next to no supply for Foci...yet I've seen 6-10 of them at a very small dealership where I live and another person states they've seen 26 at one dealership... I know Ford has had some inventory issues, but it seems like this has been a systemic problem based on anecdotal information from the past 3-4 years from what I've seen and heard on here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Dean...like I said just above is it just a Cali thing? You state that the Flex is selling pretty well...when overall numbers aren't supporting that. You have next to no supply for Foci...yet I've seen 6-10 of them at a very small dealership where I live and another person states they've seen 26 at one dealership... I know Ford has had some inventory issues, but it seems like this has been a systemic problem based on anecdotal information from the past 3-4 years from what I've seen and heard on here... my 2c, numbers can reflect, especially at this time of year, variables in extreme weather conditions Nationwide....Flexs wont sell in areas getting POUNDED with snow, so numbers in those areas will be better for 4WD Escapes, Explorers, Edges and F-150s...hell, i would say 4x4s here are less than 5% of our sales...and seriously, comfort wise, in fords lineup, the Flex is extremely hard to beat....so yeah, it most definitely may be a Cali thing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 easy to counter there, Edge has GREAT lease programs right now and we cant keep our hands on them, and the Escape isnt ugly, dated yes ,but ITS rebates, lease and financing programs are outright crazy good right now....and thats a significant reason it is doing so well right now...if not, the MAIN reason. And that will go away a tad when the new model hits....whicg is Fords MO right now. Focus is selling fine, our issue is we cant get em....ANNOYING. If dealers dont have any selection iof course numbers will be down... I agree, the Escape is dated...but it still looks good. My fav of the current small SUVs. Either way, Ford is moving a ton of them which intern will help them in the future. I have recommended the Escape to two co workers after the great experiences I have seen in my work one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I agree, the Escape is dated...but it still looks good. My fav of the current small SUVs. Either way, Ford is moving a ton of them which intern will help them in the future. I have recommended the Escape to two co workers after the great experiences I have seen in my work one. we are moving a bunch as well, hard to pass up such a bargain to be quite frank.....I actually beleive Ford has overdone the incentives a tad...I think we may be Escape-less for a while.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 we are moving a bunch as well, hard to pass up such a bargain to be quite frank.....I actually beleive Ford has overdone the incentives a tad...I think we may be Escape-less for a while.... I agree...it's a great value. They could dial it back a tad and pocket the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I agree...it's a great value. They could dial it back a tad and pocket the difference. I think I would be accurate in saying this is to make way for the new model and elliminate large numbers of potential "stragglers"...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 I think I would be accurate in saying this is to make way for the new model and elliminate large numbers of potential "stragglers"...... The strategy employed with the Crown Victoria before its demise, saturate the market and give fleet customers as many as they can buy. Then bring in the new model while the bulk of return buyers all have vehicles that are less than 12 months old, it gives existing owners time to get used to the next generation for a couple of years before they are in the market again. It smooths the transition long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blksn8k2 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Ford may also be assuming that even if the styling of the new Escape turns buyers off that might push those same buyers into a more traditional looking Explorer. Granted, there is a fairly significant size difference between the two but I would be willing to bet that many of those who are buying the current Escape were previous Explorer owners. Not saying it is a good strategy but they have been trying to push buyers into larger, more profitable vehicles, especially in the truck market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Ford may also be assuming that even if the styling of the new Escape turns buyers off that might push those same buyers into a more traditional looking Explorer. Granted, there is a fairly significant size difference between the two but I would be willing to bet that many of those who are buying the current Escape were previous Explorer owners. Not saying it is a good strategy but they have been trying to push buyers into larger, more profitable vehicles, especially in the truck market. The Edge's look is more restrained than 2013 Escape; I could see it picking up sales to those who are turned off by the Escape's new suit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) Ford may also be assuming that even if the styling of the new Escape turns buyers off that might push those same buyers into a more traditional looking Explorer. Granted, there is a fairly significant size difference between the two but I would be willing to bet that many of those who are buying the current Escape were previous Explorer owners. Not saying it is a good strategy but they have been trying to push buyers into larger, more profitable vehicles, especially in the truck market. There is also a HUGE price difference. 2013 pricing of the Escape hasn't been announced yet, however I think it is safe to assume it will still be several thousands less then the Explorer. The Edge's look is more restrained than 2013 Escape; I could see it picking up sales to those who are turned off by the Escape's new suit. That would be more possible especially if prices increase enough on the Escape to push it fairly deep into Edge pricing territory. I still think the compact SUV market is pretty price sensitive meaning if customers have more money they will usually chose a larger vehicle otherwise they will shop the best value in the class. Edited December 30, 2011 by 2005Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 There is also a HUGE price difference. 2013 pricing of the Escape hasn't been announced yet, however I think it is safe to assume it will still be several thousands less then the Explorer. That would be more possible especially if prices increase enough on the Escape to push it fairly deep into Edge pricing territory. I still think the compact SUV market is pretty price sensitive meaning if customers have more money they will usually chose a larger vehicle otherwise they will shop the best value in the class. my prediction, new Escape will come in around $23-24 base, top of the line AWD $35k.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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