atvman Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 http://wardsauto.com/ar/ford_aluminum_panels_010312/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 http://wardsauto.com/ar/ford_aluminum_panels_010312/ wonder whatever happened to Nano Steel.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I much prefer the plastic skins that were used on the 1997-2003 F-150 beds or the panels Saturn used to use. They were great. Paint always looked good...no rust or corrosion, and no dents! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) Just for thought... Anyone consider what it takes to make AL ore? To separate the ore requires a massive amount of energy, so much so that original AL ore plants required their own little power plant (were located near hydro-plants). So as AL ore production increases the drain on the power system increases. And those nice coal power plants spew more CO2 in the air, or the energy companies perform more fraking to get more natural gas. Same thing with those nice plug-in hybrids and all electric vehicles. Just pointing out that evil fact that the energy, environment economy is far more interconnected and we seem to ignore the unintended consequences. And how much does the F150 have in terms of lbs of steel in the skins? How much can AL save if the entire skin was AL? How much will all AL skins add to the cost to produce? And finally how much will it take to repair an AL skinned vehicle? We do some pretty exotic welding techniques in the aerospace industry, where AL is needed if you want to get off the ground and use steel in as many applications as possible for costs. And BTW the lightest rocket tanks made anywhere in the world are steel... Of course they are so thin that if they loose blanket pressure will collapse. Edited January 3, 2012 by Kris Kolman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Just for thought... Anyone consider what it takes to make AL ore? There is no such thing as AL "ore" ! The raw material (ore) that comes out of the ground is bauxite, which Wikipedia says "consists mostly of the minerals gibbsite Al(OH)3, boehmite γ-AlO(OH), and diaspore α-AlO(OH), in a mixture with the two iron oxides goethite and hematite, the clay mineral kaolinite, and small amounts of anatase TiO2." The rest of your statements are correct. It does take a large quantity of energy to make aluminum. They good news it is easily recyclable, Aluminum fenders and doors will certainly drive the price of a new vehicle up. It will also drive up the cost to repair and consequently your insurance. Fuel economy might beat the competition, but if they have lower initial costs, repair costs and insurance costs, Ford could be in big trouble ! Edited January 5, 2012 by theoldwizard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Scary thought in my book. An aluminum panel on a PV is one thing. Put those panels on a work truck that gets beat on a regular basis is another thing. Recognizing that many HD trucks have had aluminum components for years (including the Ford CL -"two story Edsel" and an aluminum cab option for the W series) I would think aluminum might be better used in protected areas such as frame cross members rather than panels that have constant dent exposure. Also Kris K makes very valid points about the cost of aluminum production. No such thing as a free lunch. This is a good example of the price we will pay thanks to the industry caving to the Obama administration's unrealistic CAFE targets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Scary thought in my book. An aluminum panel on a PV is one thing. Put those panels on a work truck that gets beat on a regular basis is another thing. Recognizing that many HD trucks have had aluminum components for years (including the Ford CL -"two story Edsel" and an aluminum cab option for the W series) I would think aluminum might be better used in protected areas such as frame cross members rather than panels that have constant dent exposure. Also Kris K makes very valid points about the cost of aluminum production. No such thing as a free lunch. This is a good example of the price we will pay thanks to the industry caving to the Obama administration's unrealistic CAFE targets. The world is flooded with Aluminium metal. the ass has fallen out of the price in the past few years and it's still struggling to recover because so many regions are now producing. One pertinent point, IF F150 switched to Alloy frame and body, it would reduce weight and maybe sharpen steel suppliers prices when they know motor companiess aren't afraid to step away from their product... Also Jaguar did a lot of work on the Aluminum version of DEW, employing a lot more rivet and glue process on panels that were previously welded, Granted structural joins still have to be strong and welding is probably preferred but there's a lot of places on body panels where adhesives and rivets could replace stud welds... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sstinman Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 As basis to explain the energy difference: Good sheet metal goes for about $1.00/lbs while aluminum sheet is over $5.00/lbs. I doubt one would save enough fuel over the life of vehicle to offset the initial difference in material costs (not to mention the added emissions to refine the Aluminum). It a fools beat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) As basis to explain the energy difference: Good sheet metal goes for about $1.00/lbs while aluminum sheet is over $5.00/lbs. I doubt one would save enough fuel over the life of vehicle to offset the initial difference in material costs (not to mention the added emissions to refine the Aluminum). It a fools beat. You still have emissions costs mining and refining steel, the costs you propose are not those a company like Ford pays... The world is awash with Aluminium, it was that bad 18 months ago, companies were hiring ships just to store the stuff.... I'm not saying that Ford should go aluminum but the cost differential is far less than it once was and the pay back in avoiding ever tightening CAFE regulations is something to be seriously considered, weight must be reduced... Edited January 4, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Kolman Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Just trying to get people to think about the total picture... A good example of this was the recent decision from the government to stop subsidizing corn ethanol, thru direct money and import tariffs. When initially proposed corn ethanol subsidizes were heralded widely. But once people came aware of the negatives it quickly earned a bad reputation... That is because corn has a high energy/environment impact to grow and as such the benefits didn't outweigh the initial impact. Add to that the thought of using food stock for energy and the high water impact (big problem out here in the west) corn ethanol was a bad decision. But isn't that how everything that happens when the government picks a winner… “It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) A good example of this was the recent decision from the government to stop subsidizing corn ethanol It's like this Kris, The ethanol subsidy was a price support. Anyone who tells you otherwise is misinformed, mistaken, or misleading. And it wasn't even that effective; it wasn't paid directly to farmers, or even ethanol refiners, it was paid to marketers who used it as an oxygenate or as an octane booster. That's why it was called the blender's credit. The lack of complaint from corn belt senators & reps when it was allowed to expire should tell you all you need to know about its value. The real increase in demand for ethanol came when the Energy Policy Act of 2005 ended the indemnification of users of MTBE as an oxygenate against groundwater pollution claims. This took effect in 2006 and created a significant demand for corn, which propped up the prices of cereals generally. This led to a de facto elimination of the LDP system of price guarantees and lately, serious discussions regarding the elimination or overhaul of the Direct Payment subsidy, which has been widely abused by landlords. And regarding the excess consumption of water, if an area can't support an ethanol plant, it can't support a sustainable rotation of corn and other cereals. There were a lot of airheads that put land in corn during the ethanol boom (and who were bailed out by the gov't when the crop failed), but that's hardly an indictment of the refining process. As far as the efficiency of turning corn into ethanol goes, there, too, I can't side with you. The vast majority of the nation's corn and soybean crops will be fed to livestock, and processing that crop through livestock before making it useful to us as eggs dairy and meat is perhaps less efficient than turning it into ethanol and putting it into a gas tank. Edited January 4, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The Lincoln LS had aluminum fenders, hood and trunk lid. Never heard any issues with repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY93SHO Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 "The vast majority of the nation's corn and soybean crops will be fed to livestock, and processing that crop through livestock before making it useful to us as eggs dairy and meat is perhaps less efficient than turning it into ethanol and putting it into a gas tank. " You should have ended the sentence with "and then feed it to livestock." They don't dump the corn in the lanfill when they're done with it. Most of the distillers grain from the plant near me goes to Dairy farms. And they pay good money for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The Lincoln LS had aluminum fenders, hood and trunk lid. Never heard any issues with repairs. People weren't regularly abusing the bodies of Lincoln LS's though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I much prefer the plastic skins that were used on the 1997-2003 F-150 beds or the panels Saturn used to use. They were great. Paint always looked good...no rust or corrosion, and no dents! Paint always looked good? Are you kidding? Go find any plastic-fantastic Saturn out there now that still has shiny doors. From what I have heard, those panels were notorious for their lack of good paint adhesion. One angle you could go with though that would be similar is to simply color the plastic itself. GM didn't go that route though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 My 2003 Supercrew has fiberglass rear fenders. Those were the only side panels that didn't need replacement after a 2005 hail storm. Not sure what the weight difference is between those and steel though, since that is the topic of discussion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 People weren't regularly abusing the bodies of Lincoln LS's though. Most don't regularly abuse F150s either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Most don't regularly abuse F150s either. Well, perhaps abuse is a little harsh of a word. I would venture to guess that F-150's are almost all used offroad or to haul crap in the bed at least a few times in their lifetime though. Ever used your LS to move furniture? :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Most don't regularly abuse F150s either. I have to side with Nick. My statement was not an "anti aluminum" point- I was just saying that use in a pick up for body panels presents different problems than use say in a PV. And you are correct, "Platinum" 150's don't get abused. There are plenty of 150's however that are used by people in the trades, farms, weekend warriors etc. One other point- to quote an old fleet maintenance mgr. who worked for my employer,......"aluminum is only good for tea kettles". A generalization for sure but the weight savings can be offset by a host of other problems if misapplied. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I was just saying that an awful lot of F150s never see anything other than a paved road and light hauling. I doubt the bed would be aluminum - composite would be a better choice. Of course if you plan on seeing a lot of abuse there will certainly be non-aluminum alternatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) The Lincoln LS had aluminum fenders, hood and trunk lid. Never heard any issues with repairs. Happy new year to all on BON, let hope its a great one for Ford. MMmm l have got a fetish for Lincoln LS wings, bonnets & boots now. Not done the B-52's airframe any harm it's their 60th birthday party this year, they spent 20-23 hours a day up in the sky, monitoring area's of 140,000 square miles in two hours. Some were racking up several million miles in 5 year on some missions. 60 years. It's a shame seeing perfectly good airframes getting cut up in the boneyards of Arizona. We have shit loads of old 60 years Land Rovers still being used on British roads when most were dead and buried we have just 16 of the 1982 Ford Sierra that were left on British roads today compared to 867 Land Rovers that were made in 1959 and are still running on Britain's road today. Build quality is supposedly supposed to be better in 1982 than 1950. Gotta say it will be great to the F-Series use lighter materials it can only gain be win win with massive Power to weight/ Better MPG/ improved longevity. Only down side biggest problem being galvanic corrosion once you start to mix materials but nothing finishes/plating and interfay can't fix. I quite like what Chevy have done with Via with the hybrid Silverado, I wish Ford would do the same giving itself a plan B for pick-up if we get any nasty $148 gas hikes caused be lets say those nasty Iranians. You can run it for 40 miles on cheap electric which 99% of Brits travel less than this on an average day. You could fit some solar panels on the roof of your house and run it all year for nearly free without the need to buy gas, if you need to extend out to 50 miles at it starts to burn the gas the huge big Silverado beasty still turns in an incredible equivalent of 100 US miles per gallon on top of that it's a real Swiss Army knife you can run your electric power tools off 110/240v off the electric, so l could trim my hedge with my electric trimmer then drive for next nothing on cheap electric for next to nothing and It even uses its onboard small motor to power you small cement mixer if you are running low on electric. I just wish Ford would do the same with the F-150 and sell a RHD hybrid version for the UK l would jump at the chance of owning one, that you could run on cheap electric as l only rack up 25 miles a day on average, l would never need to buy very expensive gas thats cost is made up off 75% tax.. Edited January 4, 2012 by Ford Jellymoulds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) I'm not sure what's going on with the next gen F-Series, and I don't pretend to be a technical expert, but I do have some experience so I can make a few remarks: 1. Reducing weight will be key for better fuel economy for F-Series. It will improve economy in city driving, but won't do much at highway speeds where aero is more important. Reducing weight does present a challenge as weight isn't necessarily bad when you are towing (the relative weight between the tow vehicle and the trailer can affect driving dynamics). 2. From a difficulty standpoint, hanging aluminum fenders, hood, and decklid are relatively easy (as akirby has mentioned) and have been done successfully by Ford on many products. In addition, Ford has shown that they have the capability to use cast magnesium (not pure, but magnesium/aluminum alloy) for the liftgate of the MKT. 3. Aluminum is relatively expensive, but commodity prices can change rapidly. Old data, but when Jag did the XJ in aluminum, there was probably a cost penalty of around $1,500 over steel. 4. Some of the posters have mentioned composite components. The most frequently used composite is sheet molded compound (SMC) which Ford has used for hoods and other components on occasion; fiberglas isn't used extensively except for the Corvette. But there are problems with composites. First, although the tooling is relativley cheap, the piece cost is relatively high (which makes them better for limited applications like, say, a limited volume Mustang hood). Second, the dimensional tolerance control is horrible; just look at the body gaps in the previously mentioned Saturn as an example. Third, they are not necessarily lighter in weight (I'm not including carbon fiber in this discussion). 5. Aluminum also can be used to reduce weight in engines, engine and suspension mounting, and in suspensions. This is usually a choice between weight and cost. 6. When you get to the body-in-white (the body central without any closures) and doors, using aluminum becomes much more difficult. In this case, aluminum although light, does not have the strength of steel. So the aluminum sections have to be larger than steel. The latest version of the Jag XJ looks better than the original, but if you look closely, you'll notice that the A-pillars and the top of the doors are thicker than equivalent steel cars (it's now pretty well hidden althogh it affects to some extent visibility). In addition, if you're constructing in aluminum, the basic structure of the vehicle has to meet all crash requirements; this hasn't been shown to be an issue. 7. I'm not sure about other manufacturers, but I believe Jag uses two alloys -- one for interior structure and a second, harder alloy for exterior panels to resist dings. These alloys can't be mixed in recycling, but that has not been a big deal. 8. Stamping aluminum panels is very well understood; there are some limits to bending aluminum, but designers understand what they are and have to take that into consideration when completing the exterior design. This shouldn't represent any problem with an F-Series, as it's pretty boxy anyway. (On a side note, you can make some very beautiful aluminum panels like on the Aston Martins, but the process is to heat the aluminum in a chamber with inert gas and drape the metal over a die. Very expensive and relatively slow). 9. Manufacturing vehicles with aluminum hood, fenders, or decklid is no sweat. But if you're doing the whole vehicle in aluminum, special methods are required. Jag basically uses rivet guns ilo welding guns (welding aluminum on line in high volume is very tough and very energy consumptive). Jag also uses adhesives in some areas. 10. Repairability can be an issue. Once again, with hood, fenders, liftgate, no big deal. But if you damage the basic structure, shops need special equipment to deal with the issues. Not sure what the status is now, but at one point, there were going to be regional repair centers with loaner cars available. This might work for Jag, but for high volume F-Series? So what's all this jibberish mean for the F-Series? I don't know, but I can imagine: 1. To me, it would seem the first thing Ford would be investigating would be an aluminum or magnesium/aluminum frame which would represent a big weight savings opportunity. It's even possible you could develop steel and aluminum frames and use them in different situations (like I believe Corvette does?). The aluminum frame could be very "elegant" using hydroforming to bend the rails. 2. Ford might be considering an all-aluminum cab which of course is separate from the bed. After all, if it's good enough for some heavy trucks, why not? 3. I'm thinking that Ford will stick with a steel bed. I can't imagine aluminum taking that sort of beating. 4. Further aluminum components, like suspension, could be considered. All of this is going to cost a lot of money, but could save (my estimate) around 500-700 pounds or so which would have a significant impact on city fuel economy. I also think that Ford is likely working on how to present the next-gen F-Series as a tough truck while trying to improve aero to increase highway mileage. We'll see. Edited January 4, 2012 by Austin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Paint always looked good? Are you kidding? Go find any plastic-fantastic Saturn out there now that still has shiny doors. From what I have heard, those panels were notorious for their lack of good paint adhesion. Never had an issue in the vehicles I owned. One of those vehicles still is running around my town and looks great. My 2003 Supercrew has fiberglass rear fenders. Those were the only side panels that didn't need replacement after a 2005 hail storm. Yep. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Well, perhaps abuse is a little harsh of a word. I would venture to guess that F-150's are almost all used offroad or to haul crap in the bed at least a few times in their lifetime though. Ever used your LS to move furniture? :P Most people haul furniture and crap INSIDE the bed. And I don't care if you use Al or today's very thin steel, if you abuse or beat the sheet metal, it's going to dent. I don't see offroading being a problem provided you don't bang the panels into stuff. If you do, chances are you are going to dent it, whether it is steel or Al. Most people that are really hard on their trucks don't bother to fix the dents they put in it anyway. I don't see any issues, and this comes from an F250 driver that likes to keep his truck looking showroom new as long as possible (and that single tiny dent in the hood ticks me off every time I see it...it was there when I bought it! ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (and that single tiny dent in the hood ticks me off every time I see it...it was there when I bought it! ). Aren't those hoods fiberglass? My 2007 Expedition is and I know the newer E-Series are... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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