Car and Driver: GT500...2nd.

[ZanatWork]

I subscribe on my Kindle, and saw their take on everyone's favorite comparison...

 

...and yeah, pretty much the same as MT, except the Mustang's brakes did fine. Lap times were identical for the cars, Mustang killed the Camaro in every performance category.

 

Short version: the Mustang is a glorious brute, while the Camaro raises the refinement bar with its more-modern chassis and GM's magnetic shocks.

 

The article wasn't too bad to read, though...and told the truth: if you like a more raw experience, you'll never even look at the Camaro. I don't expect my pony cars-even high dollar ones-to realistically unseat AMG products in refinement, so the Mustang would get my money (had I that much to drop on a "toy" car right now).

 

The Mustang has always, ALWAYS had to do more with less. I'm hoping the next RWD bones help to reverse that situation.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Let me guess... Camaro was given the nod in the "gotta have it" and "fun to drive" categories, pushing it into the lead?

[atomcat68]

The glass is half full way of looking at it is that the Mustang outshines the Camaro in both v-6 and GT/SS categories. This is most of the market. Being modern in an expensive end of the market is more of an advantage so, for that one percent of the pony market, the Camaro is better. I'd like the Mustang's position better. And with the sales numbers... the market is starting to reflect that too.

[Versa-Tech]

It kind of makes you wonder if MT's driver simply wasn't skilled enough to track the GT500 effectively... Or (GASP!) Perhaps there was foul play. It wouldn't be the first time...

[FordBuyer]

It kind of makes you wonder if MT's driver simply wasn't skilled enough to track the GT500 effectively... Or (GASP!) Perhaps there was foul play. It wouldn't be the first time...

 

It's more probably that the Camaro in ZL1 form is an easier car to drive fast than the GT500. I've never been a fan of the GT500 and like the Laguna Seca a lot more. Some cars you have to work real hard to drive fast, and some are much easier to do same. I would suspect that the ZL1 is a bit better balanced and not quite the handful the GT500 seems to be on track with hard shifting and braking. That seems to be the consensus from the reviews I've read so far. Not a big deal either way since both are very low volume specialty cars.

[timmm55]

It kind of makes you wonder if MT's driver simply wasn't skilled enough to track the GT500 effectively... Or (GASP!) Perhaps there was foul play. It wouldn't be the first time...

 

Actually if you watch the MT video the driver prefers the Mustang as the track car......with a brake upgrade. At a minimum both cars would need Race Brake fluid and steel brake lines, someone here said. I'd think cross drilled rotors also. He hated the Camaro's oversteer. And he is professional driver. I posted his comments verbatim on another thread.

It's Angus, the commentator and producer of the piece that picked the winner.

[GT-Keith]

Regarding the MT review, there seems to be a glaring hypocrisy among other sports car stable mates particularly regarding the ZR1 Corvette, and the Dodge Viper ACR. It has been noted many times, on past lap-a-day challenges that the aforementioned cars are very difficult to wield at the limit, yet when you do eek out those last few tenths, they're deemed "more rewarding" to drive over their more modern competitors.

 

Regarding the GT500, its like they took a complete 360 on their past perspectives. The GT500 is faster, yet harder to wield, but its somehow less rewarding to drive than the Camaro with its digital suspension and numb steering, thanks to 265mm front tires which are nearly as wide as the GT500's rear.

[PREMiERdrum]

It has been noted many times, on past lap-a-day challenges that the aforementioned cars are very difficult to wield at the limit, yet when you do eek out those last few tenths, they're deemed "more rewarding" to drive over their more modern competitors.

 

 

Some girls are really, really hard to get in the sack, but when you do....

[FordBuyer]

Actually if you watch the MT video the driver prefers the Mustang as the track car......with a brake upgrade. At a minimum both cars would need Race Brake fluid and steel brake lines, someone here said. I'd think cross drilled rotors also. He hated the Camaro's oversteer. And he is professional driver. I posted his comments verbatim on another thread.

It's Angus, the commentator and producer of the piece that picked the winner.

 

Dot 4 brake fluid and moisture content below 1%. Anything above and fluid will cook within one lap. Brake fluid flush with Dot 4 fluid is good for a racing season of a few races. Moisture content brake fluid test is part of tech inspection before track will let car on track.

[bobbyd]

Here we go again..this time its our own Mark Phelan from the Free Press. Read his bias article today about the ZL1 taking on the Shelby. He boasted how the Camaro is the fastest pony car, but failed to mention the usual Shelby dominant features...0-60MPH...faster quarter mile...faster top end speed 200 MPH...better braking 60-0...no gas guzzler tax. I'm surprised since Mark is usually pretty 'fair and balanced!'

[FordBuyer]

Here we go again..this time its our own Mark Phelan from the Free Press. Read his bias article today about the ZL1 taking on the Shelby. He boasted how the Camaro is the fastest pony car, but failed to mention the usual Shelby dominant features...0-60MPH...faster quarter mile...faster top end speed 200 MPH...better braking 60-0...no gas guzzler tax. I'm surprised since Mark is usually pretty 'fair and balanced!'

 

God, the Ford fan boys are getting way too sensitive. I don't see where Phelan said the ZL1 was better than the GT500. In fact, he did go out of the way to say the GT500 got better fuel mileage even though it was more powerful. Let's just say both vehicles are exceptional and leave it at that. Phelan also pointed out the shortcomings of ZL1 like poor visibility out. Phelan seems to like both cars for most part.

 

Click here: Mark Phelan: High-performance 2012 Camaro ZL1 ready to take on Shelby | Mark Phelan | Detroit Free Press | freep.c

[timmm55]

God, the Ford fan boys are getting way too sensitive. I don't see where Phelan said the ZL1 was better than the GT500. In fact, he did go out of the way to say the GT500 got better fuel mileage even though it was more powerful. Let's just say both vehicles are exceptional and leave it at that. Phelan also pointed out the shortcomings of ZL1 like poor visibility out. Phelan seems to like both cars for most part.

 

Click here: Mark Phelan: High-performance 2012 Camaro ZL1 ready to take on Shelby | Mark Phelan | Detroit Free Press | freep.c

 

You are right, he didn't pick a winner. And I agree both are frickin amazing. This statement seemed odd:

I can already see the Camaro owners flapping their arms and making chicken sounds as they challenge the Shelby to drag. After they shut down the Audi S5, BMW M3, Dodge Challenger SRT8 392 and Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG, of course.

But now we know how that turned out! :banmolest:

 

As much as handling does matter, this is, in the spirit of the 4th of July, an American car and 1/4 mile is KING. That's just a tick off, only after brake fade, is not a big deal. Neither are truly track ready.

[FordBuyer]

You are right, he didn't pick a winner. And I agree both are frickin amazing. This statement seemed odd:

 

But now we know how that turned out! :banmolest:

 

As much as handling does matter, this is, in the spirit of the 4th of July, an American car and 1/4 mile is KING. That's just a tick off, only after brake fade, is not a big deal. Neither are truly track ready.

 

Nah, neither are great track cars for the power they have. I would rather have a two year old Corvette for about $10,000 less that would beat both at track. And I would take a Mustang Laguna Seca over both also. I'm sure "The Boys of Excess" love cars like this that are more bark than bite. Bragging rights mostly.

[FPVFalcom]

It's more probably that the Camaro in ZL1 form is an easier car to drive fast than the GT500.

 

That's is 100% spot on. MTs 3rd party driver said the while the Mustang was a great car...it's didn't inspire confidence (from bot the brakes and the rear suspension) to push it to the absolute limit.

 

God, the Ford fan boys are getting way too sensitive.

 

Quoted for truth. Again, if it doesn't agree with their point of view, it's automatically biased or someone got paid off. Childish if you ask me.

 

Let's just say both vehicles are exceptional and leave it at that.

 

We must not be rational!!!

 

Like I said, I would be very happy with either one. Both are amazing feats of engineering. But the Camaro did the job better while having less power, weighing more, and costing less.

 

But deciding between the two is like choosing between 1 million pounds of fireworks on the 4th or 1.5 million pounds. It's still going to be a great show (unless you like in San Diego)

 

And the vast majority of these cars...like the Raptor, will be used to drive back and fourth from the office everyday and sometimes stopping on the way home to pick up a gallon of milk.

[TomServo92]

and costing less.

 

Let's go over this one more time: The GT500 had OPTIONAL equipment not available on the ZL1 that made the price higher. You can buy a GT500 for approximately the same price as the ZL1.

[Deanh]

Let's go over this one more time: The GT500 had OPTIONAL equipment not available on the ZL1 that made the price higher. You can buy a GT500 for approximately the same price as the ZL1.

let me introduce you to Ricky Recaro

[bobbyd]

HERE IS THE FIRST PARAGRAPH: The most race-track-ready Camaro ever, the * * * * 2012 ZL1 coupe lifts the performance of Chevrolet's all-American pony car to Olympian heights once reserved for demigods like BMW's M and Mercedes-Benz's AMG specialty models. The pony car has hit the big time, and it's PULLING AWAY from the competition. (KEY PHRASE: "PULLING AWAY")

 

Most people only read the first paragraph, and as we read the above direct quote it leads the average person to assume the ZL1 is "pulling away from the competition!" Couple that with the Free Press FRONT PAGE (top left corner) claiming 'Camaro ZL1 Ready To Take On The Shelby!" (Phelan NEVER admitted the Shelby was faster..he never posted the 0-60 MPH or quarter mile...Only showed the Camaro's times!/ Thus no comparison and leading the average reader to ASSUME the Camaro was "pulling away!")

 

Also this quote :"I can already see the Camaro owners flapping their arms and making chicken sounds as they challenge the Shelby to drag!" Do you want to explain that statement? I'll bet I get a response from the Ford detractors like: " If it walks like a chicken and clucks like a chicken...its not necessarily a chicken." Please!

Edited July 6, 2012 by bobbyd

[Edstock]

Also this quote :"I can already see the Camaro owners flapping their arms and making chicken sounds as they challenge the Shelby to drag!" Do you want to explain that statement? I'll bet I get a response from the Ford detractors like: " If it walks like a chicken and clucks like a chicken...its not necessarily a chicken." Please!

 

Meh. The Camaro, no matter how good it may be, still looks like a trailer-park refugee complete with mullet and tats and a Confederate flag.

[timmm55]

 

 

 

But the Camaro did the job better while having less power, weighing more, and costing less.

 

 

What was the job exactly? Was it to build the best car for the track or was to build the fastest Muscle Car?

I won't give the ZL1 the nod at the track either, if GM used Race Brake fluid as some have claimed. And as noted, if you are going to really race these things they will need a couple of upgrades anyway. The GT500 was better balanced, better steering. The GT500 is faster. PERIOD. 1/4 mile, 0-30, 0-60, 0-100, 0-200, 0-anything.

 

Is it to build the most Camry-like Super Car? Quieter, slower, easy to drive, 6 speed automatic option, lots of oversteer? Then the ZL1 wins.

Personally I'd pick the GT500, but I can see why a ZL1, especially with an automatic, would be more accessible (read better sales)........but the GT500 will be more collectible. It's what legends are made of.

[FPVFalcom]

What was the job exactly? Was it to build the best car for the track or was to build the fastest Muscle Car?

 

The job was building the better car.

 

The Camaro is better composed on the road, sitting in traffic, at the track, etc. The only "advantage" the Mustang has is raw power.....and that's just to grab headlines.

 

Don't kid yourself...Ford wanted this car to beat the Camaro in every category. If Ford just wanted a car that was fast in a straight line, they would have left the suspension alone and lowered the price. You do realize that Ford built the GT500 to be a "Camry-like Super Car" don't you? Again, these cars are so close in performance, when you try and baselessly slam the Camaro, you are also slamming the GT500....because they are that close.

[FordBuyer]

The job was building the better car.

 

The Camaro is better composed on the road, sitting in traffic, at the track, etc. The only "advantage" the Mustang has is raw power.....and that's just to grab headlines.

 

Don't kid yourself...Ford wanted this car to beat the Camaro in every category. If Ford just wanted a car that was fast in a straight line, they would have left the suspension alone and lowered the price. You do realize that Ford built the GT500 to be a "Camry-like Super Car" don't you? Again, these cars are so close in performance, when you try and baselessly slam the Camaro, you are also slamming the GT500....because they are that close.

 

Again, neither are particularly good track cars, and both are like 2,000 calorie hamburgers. They may be good, but not particularly good for you. Big, heavy, unwieldy cars with big motors and more hp than they know what to do with. Good sports cars with 1,000 pounds less weight to wield around and 250 less hp can beat the snot out of them on about any road course other than Daytona that uses half the oval. Never been impressed with the GT500 or any Camaro model on steroids.

[timmm55]

The job was building the better car.

 

The Camaro is better composed on the road, sitting in traffic, at the track, etc. The only "advantage" the Mustang has is raw power.....and that's just to grab headlines.

 

Don't kid yourself...Ford wanted this car to beat the Camaro in every category. If Ford just wanted a car that was fast in a straight line, they would have left the suspension alone and lowered the price. You do realize that Ford built the GT500 to be a "Camry-like Super Car" don't you? Again, these cars are so close in performance, when you try and baselessly slam the Camaro, you are also slamming the GT500....because they are that close.

 

I wasn't slamming the ZL1, I just think it's too tame (in comparison).

I think Ford knew about the GT500's relative shortcomings early on. They mentioned the incredible top speed and all the revisions that took, and the brute Horse Power was the obvious trump card. Ford wasn't bragging about any "ring" times. The ZL1 had already met the BOSS 302 at the track. And more HP wasn't going to help there. The suspension changes were helpful but it's not from a fresh sheet of paper.

 

I like the cajones of the GT500! It's absurd and over the top. It's visceral. it's kind of like the 66 427 Cobra vs a 66 427 Corvette, the vette is wonderful, but if your going to get this kind of car....go for the wicked one ;-)

[GT-Keith]

Again, neither are particularly good track cars, and both are like 2,000 calorie hamburgers. They may be good, but not particularly good for you. Big, heavy, unwieldy cars with big motors and more hp than they know what to do with. Good sports cars with 1,000 pounds less weight to wield around and 250 less hp can beat the snot out of them on about any road course other than Daytona that uses half the oval. Never been impressed with the GT500 or any Camaro model on steroids.

 

At Leguna Seca, the GT500 posted a lap time of 1:38.7s which beats: SLS AMG, ZL1 Camaro, 2006 Porsche 911 GT3, 2006 Porsche Turbo, Audi R8 V10, Porsche Caymen, CTSV, Lotus Exige, BMW M3 and 2009 Nissan GTR.

 

I don't think Leguna Seca is an oval.. Just because you're unimpressed doesn't mean you have to be misinformed.

[FordBuyer]

At Leguna Seca, the GT500 posted a lap time of 1:38.7s which beats: SLS AMG, ZL1 Camaro, 2006 Porsche 911 GT3, 2006 Porsche Turbo, Audi R8 V10, Porsche Caymen, CTSV, Lotus Exige, BMW M3 and 2009 Nissan GTR.

 

I don't think Leguna Seca is an oval.. Just because you're unimpressed doesn't mean you have to be misinformed.

 

What happened at Gingerman which is 2.1 mile road circuit and best each could do is ZL 1:45 and GT 500 1:46? At our club race, a 2008 GTC Cup car with 450hp did a 1:34, modded 911's from the 70's era pulling maybe 400hp did 1:36's galore, and a Cayman S with 320hp did 1:42. Stock GT 3's did consistent 1:43's and a '98 Boxster with maybe 225hp modded did consistent 1:48's. Can't speak for Laguna Seca, but at Gingerman the ZL and GT500 would have been midpack in slow Blue group that weekend with their 600hp and two tons of weight. All very experienced amateur racers racing for National Club Racing points. Many of them race also at Mosport, MidOhio, Road America, and big national race at Road Atlanta. So like I said, I'm not impressed with these two overweight excess hp wonders, and their Gingerman times proved it. Now maybe Laguna Seca has a really long straight unlike Gingerman where top average speed is only 81mph, and can use those huge hp and torque numbers, but on course like Gingerman and other tighter courses the GT500 is a handful, and the ZL1 is not much better. Since the GT500 turned in a time almost 10 seconds faster than Gingerman, I'm assuming Laguna Seca is significantly faster. The top Gingerman racers would have been running Laguna Seca in 1:26 or so if not faster.

[GT-Keith]

What happened at Gingerman which is 2.1 mile road circuit and best each could do is ZL 1:45 and GT 500 1:46? At our club race, a 2008 GTC Cup car with 450hp did a 1:34, modded 911's from the 70's era pulling maybe 400hp did 1:36's galore, and a Cayman S with 320hp did 1:42. Stock GT 3's did consistent 1:43's and a '98 Boxster with maybe 225hp modded did consistent 1:48's. Can't speak for Laguna Seca, but at Gingerman the ZL and GT500 would have been midpack in slow Blue group that weekend with their 600hp and two tons of weight. All very experienced amateur racers racing for National Club Racing points. Many of them race also at Mosport, MidOhio, Road America, and big national race at Road Atlanta. So like I said, I'm not impressed with these two overweight excess hp wonders, and their Gingerman times proved it. Now maybe Laguna Seca has a really long straight unlike Gingerman where top average speed is only 81mph, and can use those huge hp and torque numbers, but on course like Gingerman and other tighter courses the GT500 is a handful, and the ZL1 is not much better. Since the GT500 turned in a time almost 10 seconds faster than Gingerman, I'm assuming Laguna Seca is significantly faster. The top Gingerman racers would have been running Laguna Seca in 1:26 or so if not faster.

 

How does this substantiate the claims that you made earlier or refute the rebuttal that I made against them?

 

You said: "Good sports cars with 1,000 pounds less weight to wield around and 250 less hp can beat the snot out of them on about any road course other than Daytona that uses half the oval"

 

 

I gave you a several examples of cars that weigh nearly 1000lbs less whilst having 200(or more) less hp, most notably the Caymen, yet still loosing on a track that wasn't an oval or a "half oval."

 

Whether or not you were impressed is irrelevant to the objective claims that you made... Keyword there is objective.

 

And no crap a club racer with .5" of suspension travel, short gearing, competition rubber, weight savings measures, and full on roll cages will be faster than streetable muscle cars with none of the aforementioned upgrades.

 

+1 for odd comparisons.

Edited July 8, 2012 by GT-Keith